International Skeptics Forum

International Skeptics Forum (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/forumindex.php)
-   USA Politics (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=6)
-   -   Senator Al Franken Kissed and Groped Me Without My Consent, And There’s Nothing Funny (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=324808)

The Big Dog 17th November 2017 07:55 AM

A pretense is when you do something like post irrelevant pictures in a thread and attempt to contrive a paper thin excuse for why they are relevant. This thread has a great example.

uke2se 17th November 2017 07:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by angrysoba (Post 12080478)
I think this only amounts to the idea that it is possible he wasn't groping her against her will (i.e sexual assault), rather than "that picture even in the worse light cannot be considered sexual assault".

I think that if the Dems and Al Franken want to be taken seriously on the subject, Franken should just step down. And this would also make their position stronger when they go after other, more egregious, examples of sexual assault such as those that take place at FOX News and Roy Moore and their enablers such as the despicable Sean Hannity.

There's a problem with taking the high road and making an example of someone without properly investigating it first: you let the GOP and their sycophants dictate your line up. The GOP aren't going to sell out their own, as we can see in the Roy Moore case, which means that there's no "both sides" here. If the Dems throw Franken under the bus - and it turns out he did nothing - they have weakened their political position for absolutely no gain.

That said, I still think Franken should be censured, but I believe calls for him to step down are premature, pending an ethics investigation.

d4m10n 17th November 2017 07:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oystein (Post 12080474)
It's good you placed an "if" there, or else this would be a strawman.

I never said or implied her state of consciousness plays no role. It obviously is a confounding factor. Actually groping a sleeping woman is worse than pretending to. Actually groping an awake woman is worse than pretending to (just as battery is worse than assault). Pretending to grope a sleeping woman (and recording it so she knows) is worse than pretending to grope an awake women.
Are we on the same page now?

Maybe so. Do you think Franken can continue to credibly represent his political party going forward, given their stated values regarding sexual harassment in the workplace?

quadraginta 17th November 2017 08:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf (Post 12079991)
The imagery yes, because it's usually trying to sell something, be it for an ad or a magazine, but just because the model is in a "sexually provocative" image, doesn't mean that she is being "sexually provocative". There is a distinction between the two things.


Yes. And I thought I had made that distinction. The "it" I referred to was the imagery.

Apologies if I was not sufficiently clear.

luchog 17th November 2017 08:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Jones (Post 12079249)
Registered women voters, and actual women voters outnumber men in the USA. if they wanted a all-woman government, we'd have one.


But just think of the possibilities inherent in an all-woman government. Imagine president Sarah Palin and vice-president Jan Brewer, with Michele Bachman as attorney general, and Kellyanne Conway of course is the obvious choice for chief strategist and advisor. And if that's not inspiring enough, picture Carly Fiorina as senate majority leader; and even better, we could get Condoleezza Rice to reprise her award-winning role as secretary of state. Don't forget Ann Coulter, who would be the obvious choice as speaker of the house, and Sarah Huckabee Sanders as press secretary.

Truly, a brave new world.

:rolleyes:

Oystein 17th November 2017 08:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by d4m10n (Post 12080489)
Maybe so. Do you think Franken can continue to credibly represent his political party going forward, given their stated values regarding sexual harassment in the workplace?

Borderline, ultimately not my call to make (I am not a US citizen). If he were my Member of Parliament (I am German), I'd keep him, provided a. more women don't step up to reveal a pattern of abusive behaviour b. he follows through in earnest with his pledge to give Tweeden a fair chance to have her allegations assessed and appreciated.

So far, he is on a good course on both criteria, but certainly not through. At least he hasn't wrecked his credibility yet with reckless denials and counter accusations.

ChristianProgressive 17th November 2017 08:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xjx388 (Post 12080002)
Why isn't it suspicious when, say, Moore's accusers came forward as he was running for the Senate or when accusers came forward just when Trump ran for President?

To a degree it is, but not for the reason you're implying. Sexual scandals are great for diverting public attention from more important issues(in the national sense). Those bent on creating chaos don't care who they target.

Which, for the record, is not me saying any given accuser is lying. Further, it's not as if we didn't know these sorts of things haven't always been happening, because they have been. All I am wondering is why it seems to all be coming out now?

Beelzebuddy 17th November 2017 08:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by d4m10n (Post 12080489)
Maybe so. Do you think Franken can continue to credibly represent his political party going forward, given their stated values regarding sexual harassment in the workplace?

He's called for an ethics investigation into his own behavior. If they clear him, would that be enough for you?

uke2se 17th November 2017 08:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive (Post 12080512)
To a degree it is, but not for the reason you're implying. Sexual scandals are great for diverting public attention from more important issues(in the national sense). Those bent on creating chaos don't care who they target.

Which, for the record, is not me saying any given accuser is lying. Further, it's not as if we didn't know these sorts of things haven't always been happening, because they have been. All I am wondering is why it seems to all be coming out now?

Because of #metoo.

Oystein 17th November 2017 08:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive (Post 12080512)
To a degree it is, but not for the reason you're implying. Sexual scandals are great for diverting public attention from more important issues(in the national sense). Those bent on creating chaos don't care who they target.

Which, for the record, is not me saying any given accuser is lying. Further, it's not as if we didn't know these sorts of things haven't always been happening, because they have been. All I am wondering is why it seems to all be coming out now?

Again, please suggest to the next would-be accuser a more appropriate timeframe - and please make it specific! What day does the next window of acceptable opportunity open, what day will it close? And who must this be acceptable to?

angrysoba 17th November 2017 08:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by uke2se (Post 12080488)
There's a problem with taking the high road and making an example of someone without properly investigating it first: you let the GOP and their sycophants dictate your line up. The GOP aren't going to sell out their own, as we can see in the Roy Moore case, which means that there's no "both sides" here. If the Dems throw Franken under the bus - and it turns out he did nothing - they have weakened their political position for absolutely no gain.

That said, I still think Franken should be censured, but I believe calls for him to step down are premature, pending an ethics investigation.

How could he have done nothing when he himself admits to wrongdoing, and if he himself is wrong about wrongdoing then why would he be censured?

It sounds like trying to have it both ways.

ChristianProgressive 17th November 2017 08:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf (Post 12080007)
And the Hollywood sex abuse scandals!

The fact is that with the Scandals and victims coming forward in Hollywood and on TV, there are a lot of stories of women coming to terms with their abuse and seeing that people will believe them. Yes it';s a sudden rush, but it's not suspicious, it's quite understandable. All it needed were a few brave ones to stand up and say "I was abused" and others suddenly can see that "it wasn't just me" and "I'm not alone" and they are granted the courage to stand up as well. We saw the same thing happen in the UK with the Jimmy Savile case.

That is certainly a factor.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Oystein (Post 12080064)
Can you please advise Mrs. Tweeden, or any victim of a D politician, or of a R politician, what specific time frame to make past abuse known is acceptable to you, and why? Thanks.

I absolutely think that victims should come forward (if they chose to do so). But you have to admit we've had at least, what, seven or eight (or more) in a matter of weeks? After having a couple a year at most? It looks odd.

It could also be as PhantomWolf suggests, that the dam just broke. I think a lot of dams are either breaking or close to it.

uke2se 17th November 2017 08:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by angrysoba (Post 12080520)
How could he have done nothing when he himself admits to wrongdoing, and if he himself is wrong about wrongdoing then why would he be censured?

It sounds like trying to have it both ways.

I agree. I didn't express myself clearly. Sorry about that.

If it turns out all Franken did was perform an inappropriate joke, and there's no indication that this is an ongoing problematic behavior, I think he should be censured for the trangression he did make, but that it would be too much to remove him. If an investigation turns out that this is ongoing and problematic, he should be removed.

uke2se 17th November 2017 08:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive (Post 12080522)
That is certainly a factor.




I absolutely think that victims should come forward (if they chose to do so). But you have to admit we've had at least, what, seven or eight (or more) in a matter of weeks? After having a couple a year at most? It looks odd.

It could also be as PhantomWolf suggests, that the dam just broke. I think a lot of dams are either breaking or close to it.

Just a sidenote about dams breaking:

In Sweden, we have daily news stories about workrelated sexual abuse on an institutional level. Several "federal departments" (because we don't call them that here) are under close scrutiny. Yesterday, an open letter from around 5000 legal professionals told about sexual abuse goings on in various courthouses and law firms around the country. Today it's the armed forces' turn.

d4m10n 17th November 2017 08:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy (Post 12080514)
He's called for an ethics investigation into his own behavior. If they clear him, would that be enough for you?

If they clear him of what, exactly?

If I took a picture like that with an unwilling coworker, I'd get the sack for sure.

ChristianProgressive 17th November 2017 08:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oystein (Post 12080518)
Again, please suggest to the next would-be accuser a more appropriate timeframe - and please make it specific! What day does the next window of acceptable opportunity open, what day will it close? And who must this be acceptable to?

See my previous response.

The Big Dog 17th November 2017 08:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis (Post 12078801)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leeann_Tweeden

She has also appeared on the political discussion series Hannity, as a member of the "Great American Panel" and occasionally appeared on the panel of Red Eye w/ Greg Gutfeld.[4]

In 1996, Tweeden appeared non-nude in a fitness model pictorial for Playboy magazine. Fifteen years later, at 38 years old, she appeared again in the December, 2011 issue of Playboy, this time posing in a nude pictorial. IIn 2002, she was a guest character in the motocross video game Freekstyle as a motocross rider. The March 2007 Issue of FHM (which was the final printed US issue) featured Tweeden as the cover girl.[5] As part of Hooters' 25th anniversary in 2008, she was named among "The Top Hooters Girls of all time".[6]


More context.

Just "context" for the "slut shaming" I guess.

She worked at Hooters, open season on Hooters girls.

Reelect Al Franken

Beelzebuddy 17th November 2017 08:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by d4m10n (Post 12080528)
If they clear him of what, exactly?

If they clear him of ongoing ethical misconduct. "Do your personal involvements conflict with your role in such a way that it impairs your judgment or ability to represent your constituents" is the question that ethics committees are designed to answer. You don't need to ask it of us, methods already exist to determine whether Franken "can continue to credibly represent his political party going forward, given their stated values regarding sexual harassment in the workplace."

Armitage72 17th November 2017 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by luchog (Post 12080508)
But just think of the possibilities inherent in an all-woman government. Imagine president Sarah Palin and vice-president Jan Brewer, with Michele Bachman as attorney general, and Kellyanne Conway of course is the obvious choice for chief strategist and advisor. And if that's not inspiring enough, picture Carly Fiorina as senate majority leader; and even better, we could get Condoleezza Rice to reprise her award-winning role as secretary of state. Don't forget Ann Coulter, who would be the obvious choice as speaker of the house, and Sarah Huckabee Sanders as press secretary.

Truly, a brave new world.

:rolleyes:


Back in the 1950s, EC Comics published a story in one of their science fiction comics.
A woman decided to run for President as an independent. It was treated as a joke, until women decided to vote for her instead of who their husbands told them to vote for (gasp!). She won, to the horror of the establishment. First, they tried to have the Supreme Court declare her ineligible, but the Justices' wives wouldn't let them, except for the one unmarried Justice. Then, they planned to amend the Constitution to specify that the President could only be a man, but by then she had inspired other women to run for office across the country, and they had won, so they realized it would never pass. This then caused a complete reversal of society, and the rest of the story was depictions of various 1950s gender stereotypes, but with the male and female roles reversed.
Women getting upset about their father-in-laws coming to live with them.
Female executives calling their husbands to say they were working late, while their male secretaries sat on their laps giggling.
Men trying to get out of traffic tickets by flirting with female police officers.
Heroic female firefighters rescuing helpless men from burning buildings.
Men getting upset because their wives aren't buying them the new kitchen appliances that their neighbors have.
When a war broke out, men were encouraged to take factory jobs so the women could go and fight.

angrysoba 17th November 2017 08:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by uke2se (Post 12080525)
I agree. I didn't express myself clearly. Sorry about that.

If it turns out all Franken did was perform an inappropriate joke, and there's no indication that this is an ongoing problematic behavior, I think he should be censured for the trangression he did make, but that it would be too much to remove him. If an investigation turns out that this is ongoing and problematic, he should be removed.

If he really thinks he did something wrong and he thinks it is important to do what he says in his apology, which is to fight against sexual harassment, then maybe he could prove himself by stepping down. There will always be someone who can replace him. I disagree that the GOP will be calling their line-up. The governor of the state does that, and that governor is a Democrat. The Democrats can also field anyone they want for the next election.

xjx388 17th November 2017 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darat (Post 12080101)
"nobody seems bothered by it" have you never read about the problems with hazing in the military?

Yes, I'm aware of the problems. But in this context, they were the equivalent of college roommates who became really good friends and pranked each other with extremely suggestive photographs while, say, one slept and his mouth hung open. That was just a funny thing to do amongst that group of friends. My brother was the "victim" of such pranks and he was not bothered in slightest. They all remain good friends to this day even though they are deployed/live in different parts of the world.

"Hazing," has a different connotation than simple collegiate hijinks.

theprestige 17th November 2017 09:18 AM

Why are progs so excited about Franken submitting to the ethics committee of an organization that pays out millions of dollars in secret harassment claims on behalf of its members?

"Hey! You've been molesting the chickens! What do you have to say for yourself?"

"I humbly place my fate in the hands of the foxes that run this henhouse."

theprestige 17th November 2017 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by quadraginta (Post 12079695)
I wonder how long we'll have to wait for Moore to ask for an independent ethics investigation of the accusations being made against him.

The Senate Ethics Committee is not independent.

quadraginta 17th November 2017 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12080615)
The Senate Ethics Committee is not independent.


And Moore isn't a Senator.

Yet, anyhow.

If he gets elected I'll change the way I phrased my question.

luchog 17th November 2017 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive (Post 12080522)
I absolutely think that victims should come forward (if they chose to do so). But you have to admit we've had at least, what, seven or eight (or more) in a matter of weeks? After having a couple a year at most? It looks odd.

It could also be as PhantomWolf suggests, that the dam just broke. I think a lot of dams are either breaking or close to it.


Going by the latest reporting, it's very much a case of a lot of dams breaking. Mostly it has been started by women who were past the point of having their careers negatively impacted by coming out with their accusations against these powerful men. Doing so has opened the door for others to feel safer in revealing their own past history of abuse by these men; and the reaction has opened the door for other women whose careers are currently in a position to be affected to come forward with less fear of potential consequences.

There's still a long way to go on that, however.

Quote:

Originally Posted by uke2se (Post 12080525)
I agree. I didn't express myself clearly. Sorry about that.

If it turns out all Franken did was perform an inappropriate joke, and there's no indication that this is an ongoing problematic behavior, I think he should be censured for the trangression he did make, but that it would be too much to remove him. If an investigation turns out that this is ongoing and problematic, he should be removed.


I would tend to agree with this. There is a world of difference in the nature of the current accusations against Franken compared to Moore, Weinstein, Trump, and others; and an even greater difference in how those accusations were addressed by the accused.

As it stands right now, taking the accusations at face value, there was a single incident, which was not pursued. His actions at the time were certainly worthy of censure, but he has accepted responsibility for them and encouraged further investigation; and his actions and voting record indicate that he is on the right side of the issue. They do not IMO require his expulsion from the senate or his resignation. Should further credible accusations come to light, then I would strongly support his resignation or expulsion.

By contrast, the accusations against the likes of Moore and Trump are far more egregious, part of a much larger pattern of abuses, and have been met with denial, victim blaming/shaming, threats of defamation lawsuits, and in Trump's case at least, bragging about his ability to get away with such abuses. Huge difference.

ponderingturtle 17th November 2017 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xjx388 (Post 12079391)
Not at all. There’s an actual picture of Franken sexually harassing a woman.

There is video of the president talking about how he sexually harasses and assaults women then doing it after he gets off the bus.

ponderingturtle 17th November 2017 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dudalb (Post 12079435)
Not if you think Moore's should end........

If you give one a pass, you need to give both a pass.

Why? The victims in each do not seem to have the same desires. Moore's victims don't want him in the senate, Franken's has accepted his apology and does not think he should resign. Clearly we need to blame these victims for their double standards.

These crimes are not all the same, there is a scale from Franken, through Louis CK up to Weinstien. Why should the punishment be universal?

theprestige 17th November 2017 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by quadraginta (Post 12080618)
And Moore isn't a Senator.

Yet, anyhow.

If he gets elected I'll change the way I phrased my question.

Might wanna change the thread you ask it in, too.

... In which you ask it.

Beelzebuddy 17th November 2017 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12080585)
Why are progs so excited about Franken submitting to the ethics committee of an organization that pays out millions of dollars in secret harassment claims on behalf of its members?

"Hey! You've been molesting the chickens! What do you have to say for yourself?"

"I humbly place my fate in the hands of the foxes that run this henhouse."

...are you referring to me? What's a prog?

crescent 17th November 2017 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Big Dog (Post 12080442)
By the way, Donald Trump absolutely drunked on Al Franken this morning.

Quote:

Originally Posted by luchog (Post 12080693)
As it stands right now, taking the accusations at face value, there was a single incident, which was not pursued. His actions at the time were certainly worthy of censure, but he has accepted responsibility for them and encouraged further investigation; and his actions and voting record indicate that he is on the right side of the issue. They do not IMO require his expulsion from the senate or his resignation. Should further credible accusations come to light, then I would strongly support his resignation or expulsion.

By contrast, the accusations against the likes of Moore and Trump are far more egregious, part of a much larger pattern of abuses, and have been met with denial, victim blaming/shaming, threats of defamation lawsuits, and in Trump's case at least, bragging about his ability to get away with such abuses. Huge difference.

This pretty well sums it up for me.

I would add that in two decades of being on the set of Saturday Night Live, Franken had ample opportunity to behave badly. If he did, we are likely to hear of it.

ponderingturtle 17th November 2017 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dudalb (Post 12079747)
SO if someone says "I'M Sorry" he should not be punished for his behavior?
Nice.

That seems to satisfy the victim. Should the desires of the victim be taken into account?

Why should the punishment for this be one size fits all?

Regnad Kcin 17th November 2017 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by d4m10n (Post 12080307)
Of course they do. I assume the public post is virtue signaling and the other is his authentic self.

You assume a person is only one, distinct type?

applecorped 17th November 2017 11:00 AM

Sliding scale of sexual assault.

Get on board.

Regnad Kcin 17th November 2017 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf
The worst light is that it was a picture of him actually in the action of groping her. Groping is a form of sexual assault.

Why not discuss what the photo “actually” indicates he was doing, rather than what you’ve written?

d4m10n 17th November 2017 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Regnad Kcin (Post 12080753)
You assume a person is only one, distinct type?

I assume that a person either takes sexual assault seriously, or else they pose pretending to sexually assault an unwilling coworker for a fun gag, but probably not both.

jnelso99 17th November 2017 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy (Post 12080733)
...are you referring to me? What's a prog?

One of those flipper gerbil things from the new Star Wars movie?

theprestige 17th November 2017 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy (Post 12080733)
...are you referring to me? What's a prog?

It's short for "progressive".

"Liberal" is a diluted and contentious term. I think "progressive" is a much more accurate and agreeable shorthand for people whose policy positions tend to spring from a particular kind of idealism. It also stands neatly across from "conservative", the opposing wellspring of policy ideals.

theprestige 17th November 2017 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crescent (Post 12080739)
This pretty well sums it up for me.

I would add that in two decades of being on the set of Saturday Night Live, Franken had ample opportunity to behave badly. If he did, we are likely to hear of it.

Congress has paid out $15 million in sexual harassment claims. That's a lot of bad behavior. How much have you heard about, before this week? I don't buy the argument that because we haven't heard about it, probably nothing happened.

Beelzebuddy 17th November 2017 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12080770)
It's short for "progressive".

"Liberal" is a diluted and contentious term. I think "progressive" is a much more accurate and agreeable shorthand for people whose policy positions tend to spring from a particular kind of idealism. It also stands neatly across from "conservative", the opposing wellspring of policy ideals.

And what ideals should a prog espouse?

ponderingturtle 17th November 2017 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger (Post 12079242)
I'll take the 'yes he will' side of that bet.

I called it.


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 07:13 PM.

Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2015-19, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.