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-   -   Senator Al Franken Kissed and Groped Me Without My Consent, And There’s Nothing Funny (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=324808)

xjx388 17th November 2017 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis (Post 12078801)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leeann_Tweeden

She has also appeared on the political discussion series Hannity, as a member of the "Great American Panel" and occasionally appeared on the panel of Red Eye w/ Greg Gutfeld.[4]

In 1996, Tweeden appeared non-nude in a fitness model pictorial for Playboy magazine. Fifteen years later, at 38 years old, she appeared again in the December, 2011 issue of Playboy, this time posing in a nude pictorial. IIn 2002, she was a guest character in the motocross video game Freekstyle as a motocross rider. The March 2007 Issue of FHM (which was the final printed US issue) featured Tweeden as the cover girl.[5] As part of Hooters' 25th anniversary in 2008, she was named among "The Top Hooters Girls of all time".[6]


More context.

For the record, this is an even more blatant example of slut-shaming than what Skeptic Ginger posted.

NoahFence 17th November 2017 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xjx388 (Post 12081319)
For the record, this is an even more blatant example of slut-shaming than what Skeptic Ginger posted.

The entire 2016 election was slut shaming type behavior from trump. Now it's a problem?

KatieG 17th November 2017 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12081221)
Why is "actually touching her breasts" the cutoff?

Why not "making her the butt of a sex object joke without her consent"?

Because it's continuously being called out as groping. There is a definitive difference.

theprestige 17th November 2017 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KatieG (Post 12081330)
Because it's continuously being called out as groping. There is a definitive difference.

You're missing the forest for the trees, KatieG.

Skeptic Ginger 17th November 2017 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by d4m10n (Post 12081311)
I don't disagree, but isn't there a good case to be made that Franken should step aside and give someone else a shot in 2020, for the sake of his own party and values?

No, there isn't.

Not yet anyway.

The Big Dog 17th November 2017 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xjx388 (Post 12081319)
For the record, this is an even more blatant example of slut-shaming than what Skeptic Ginger posted.

here was her response: "Relevant, I hate to go for the history thing, it's not always fair. But this does seem at least a little relevant."

d4m10n 17th November 2017 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger (Post 12081358)
No, there isn't.

Not yet anyway.

The dude won by just a few hundred votes back when he didn't have a scandal around his neck making him look (at best) insensitive to the problem of nonconsensual sexual objectification and sexual harassment in the workplace.

Can Franken reasonably expect to win again in these times?

Skeptic Ginger 17th November 2017 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xjx388 (Post 12081313)
I'm questioning why Oystein calls TBD "Vile" and "liar" simply because he disagrees with TBD's posts, yet, Oystein also disagrees with you but does not call you names. Just pointing out the inconsistency.

I don't misunderstand your post. You are making an argument that she is very likely to have been groped and harassed many times in her career so why single out Franken. That argument is speculative ...

Right, because some gorgeous women who work at Hooters for years have not ever been harassed. :rolleyes: Sorry but your default position is ludicrous.

Quote:

Originally Posted by xjx388 (Post 12081313)
... and irrelevant. If you aren't bringing it up to throw shade on Tweeden, then why bring it up? It doesn't excuse Franken.

To point out her accusations about Franken seem exaggerated. She clearly hates the guy. That can color one's perception at the time during the USO tour.

I don't doubt she believes her perception of Franken's motives. I am not sure her perception—he wrote the skit and wanted to practice it so he could kiss her— is valid. That implies she knows Franken's motive but she has no way of verifying that motive.

Quote:

Originally Posted by xjx388 (Post 12081313)
... I will offer one clarification: "slut-shaming" may not be a completely accurate way to characterize your argument. However, it is certainly closely related to what you are doing here -throwing shade on the victim in order to sow doubt about her motivations for coming forward in Franken's case.

Bull ****. You can hunt trough all my posts and you will not find any examples of slut shaming because I most definietley don't believe in slut-shaming. But you can believe whatever you want, it obviously goes with your confirmation bias.

When the accusers come out of the woodwork, the subject can be revisited.

In the meantime, Franken has been a supporter of women's rights for decades. And his response to the accusation fits with my confirmation bias, that he is indeed sensitive and has decided if his behavior has been crass he's determined to change it.

xjx388 17th November 2017 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NoahFence (Post 12081327)
The entire 2016 election was slut shaming type behavior from trump. Now it's a problem?

It really doesn’t matter who does it, it’s always a problem, wouldn’t you agree?

Skeptic Ginger 17th November 2017 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by casebro (Post 12081316)
That is about as sexist as the word that starts with a C and rhymes with hunt.

Put that hypocrisy in your vagina hat.

I thought 'dong' among other words were worse. By all means do tell us the PC word I should have used.

Penis I guess, I'll try not to offend you. :rolleyes:

Skeptic Ginger 17th November 2017 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KatieG (Post 12081330)
Because it's continuously being called out as groping. There is a definitive difference.

The news pundits are doing the same thing, calling it groping when groping means something other than a fake grope for a photo joke.

It lessens what actual groping is, and it makes a crime of any sexual jokes whatsoever. I get it, some people are outraged. Personally, I don't draw the line at such a prudish point. At the same time, the important stuff should not go unnoticed like the Steubenville pictures.

Skeptic Ginger 17th November 2017 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by d4m10n (Post 12081367)
The dude won by just a few hundred votes back when he didn't have a scandal around his neck making him look (at best) insensitive to the problem of nonconsensual sexual objectification and sexual harassment in the workplace.

Can Franken reasonably expect to win again in these times?

[Makes sure we are in the Franken thread]

Yes, I think the reason the election was close was Franken was a comedian and not a proven legislator. Now he has a legislator track record and my guess is Minnesotans are pleased with his record.

angrysoba 17th November 2017 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dudalb (Post 12080878)
I am getting out of here; the Partisan Blinders people are wearing is too much to take.

And the Supercilious Use of Language Award goes to dudalb, proving once again that he can tell everyone how much better he is than the plebs.

logger 17th November 2017 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger (Post 12081372)

Bull ****. You can hunt trough all my posts and you will not find any examples of slut shaming because I most definietley don't believe in slut-shaming. But you can believe whatever you want, it obviously goes with your confirmation bias.

Your post was a classic example of slut shaming and The Big Dog exposed it thoroughly.


Quote:

When the accusers come out of the woodwork, the subject can be revisited.
No, only one is needed.
Quote:

In the meantime, Franken has been a supporter of women's rights for decades. And his response to the accusation fits with my confirmation bias, that he is indeed sensitive and has decided if his behavior has been crass he's determined to change it.
What did you expect when he’s been caught?
Don’t forget he’s known this picture was out for awhile. ;)

Skeptic Ginger 17th November 2017 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xjx388 (Post 12081373)
It really doesn’t matter who does it, it’s always a problem, wouldn’t you agree?

Yes but maybe should should look up the definition. It is not "showing women dress in sexy clothes in sexy poses". It is what you dismiss about what happened to the woman because of that dress/posing, something I did not do.

I asked why Franken's actions made such an impression on her when surely other men must have also objectified her? That doesn't have **** to do with saying she egged Franken on or she should have expected Franken to want to jam his tongue down her mouth.

If anything, maybe those expectations, that men objectify her, is what led her to assume certain things about Franken's motives.

NoahFence 17th November 2017 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xjx388 (Post 12081373)
It really doesn’t matter who does it, it’s always a problem, wouldn’t you agree?

Of course

angrysoba 17th November 2017 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger (Post 12081390)
Yes but maybe should should look up the definition. It is not "showing women dress in sexy clothes in sexy poses". It is what you dismiss about what happened to the woman because of that dress/posing, something I did not do.

I asked why Franken's actions made such an impression on her when surely other men must have also objectified her? That doesn't have **** to do with saying she egged Franken on or she should have expected Franken to want to jam his tongue down her mouth.

If anything, maybe those expectations, that men objectify her, is what led her to assume certain things about Franken's motives.

Does her history of working at Hooters or posing nude for Playboy have any relevance to her allegations against Franken?

I think it is a dangerous route to go down.

logger 17th November 2017 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger (Post 12081390)
Yes but maybe should should look up the definition. It is not "showing women dress in sexy clothes in sexy poses". It is what you dismiss about what happened to the woman because of that dress/posing, something I did not do.

I asked why Franken's actions made such an impression on her when surely other men must have also objectified her? That doesn't have **** to do with saying she egged Franken on or she should have expected Franken to want to jam his tongue down her mouth.

If anything, maybe those expectations, that men objectify her, is what led her to assume certain things about Franken's motives.

Lol

Every woman on this planet gets that treatment from men. But what Franken did was way beyond what any woman should have to deal with. The way you brought up her modeling was again, classic slut shaming. If a woman gets her ass pinched walking down the street, you pretty much said “why is she upset she should be used to it since she’s wearing those yoga pants all the time”

Foolmewunz 17th November 2017 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by logger (Post 12081414)
Lol

Every woman on this planet gets that treatment from men. But what Franken did was way beyond what any woman should have to deal with. The way you brought up her modeling was again, classic slut shaming. If a woman gets her ass pinched walking down the street, you pretty much said “why is she upset she should be used to it since she’s wearing those yoga pants all the time”

Tote that barge, lift that bail....

Clutch those pearls.


Him being a member of the loyal opposition have anything to do with your convenient sense of outrage.

The Big Dog 17th November 2017 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Foolmewunz (Post 12081418)
Tote that barge, lift that bail....

Clutch those pearls.

Him being a member of the loyal opposition have anything to do with your convenient sense of outrage.

Nor the terrible arguments being raised to defend him, and smear the accuser by the loyal proponents.

She worked at hooters.

Foolmewunz 17th November 2017 06:22 PM

Yep. Partisan politics at its best. "Let me explain in three thousand words why your jaywalker is worse than my jaywalker".

Shalamar 17th November 2017 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Foolmewunz (Post 12081432)
Yep. Partisan politics at its best. "Let me explain in three thousand words why your jaywalker is worse than my jaywalker".

In a nutshell: 'It's always a progs/liberal/leftists fault. Always.'

The Big Dog 17th November 2017 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shalamar (Post 12081433)
In a nutshell: 'It's always a progs/liberal/leftists fault. Always.'

Oh man....

ChristianProgressive 17th November 2017 06:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12080585)
Why are progs so excited about Franken submitting to the ethics committee of an organization that pays out millions of dollars in secret harassment claims on behalf of its members?

"Hey! You've been molesting the chickens! What do you have to say for yourself?"

"I humbly place my fate in the hands of the foxes that run this henhouse."

1) Contrast that to Trump and Moore, who ignore/belittle/attack their accusers.

2) What body should he submit himself to for judgment. No criminal or civil charges have been filed.

KatieG 17th November 2017 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12081348)
You're missing the forest for the trees, KatieG.

Not at all. I just don't see things the way you do. Let's leave it at that.

theprestige 17th November 2017 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KatieG (Post 12081440)
Not at all. I just don't see things the way you do. Let's leave it at that.

You don't see a massive problem with making someone the butt of a sex object joke without her consent?

logger 17th November 2017 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KatieG (Post 12081330)
Because it's continuously being called out as groping. There is a definitive difference.

Ms Tweeden also discusses Frankensteins harassment for just about the entire tour.

Cain 17th November 2017 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12081444)
You don't see a massive problem with making someone the butt of a sex object joke without her consent?

Could a mitigating factor be that she had consented to being a sex object on the tour?

theprestige 17th November 2017 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by logger (Post 12081446)
Ms Tweeden also discusses Frankensteins harassment for just about the entire tour.

But technically correct is the best kind of correct! We must defend Senator Franken's good reputation in the face of his miming a groping action on an unconsenting woman!

Foolmewunz 17th November 2017 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12081459)
But technically correct is the best kind of correct! We must defend Senator Franken's good reputation in the face of his miming a groping action on an unconsenting woman!

Testify, brother! It's so good to see you lining up on the side of feminism, finally. It took having the opportunity to attack a liberal to do it, but it's progress! We'll win you people 'round after all.

Men are dawgs! (God help me, the MRAs will be along.) Men behaving badly in concert with other men behaving badly and their mousy female enablers is a constant in society since I can remember.

We don't really care. We're just here for the political points, after all.

logger 17th November 2017 07:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cain (Post 12081457)
Could a mitigating factor be that she had consented to being a sex object on the tour?

Yeah she was probably wearing tight pants too.

logger 17th November 2017 07:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Foolmewunz (Post 12081472)
Testify, brother! It's so good to see you lining up on the side of feminism, finally. It took having the opportunity to attack a liberal to do it, but it's progress! We'll win you people 'round after all.

Men are dawgs! (God help me, the MRAs will be along.) Men behaving badly in concert with other men behaving badly and their mousy female enablers is a constant in society since I can remember.

We don't really care. We're just here for the political points, after all.

Surprise, another personal attack.

Craig4 17th November 2017 07:12 PM

I absolutely don't condone Franken's behavior. He should absolutely suffer some consequence. That said, let's not compare oranges to apples. There is a difference between admitting wrong doing, apologizing and supporting an ethics investigation into one's self and what Moore did. Has Franken been banned from the Mall of the Americas for hitting on high school girls?

If the investigation comes up with worse behavior (I'll note the victim in this case has pointedly not called for his removal from the Senate, rather the opposite) with more women, then he should be removed from the Senate.

Minoosh 17th November 2017 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger (Post 12081251)
Well are we sure the latter isn't valid? I took Franken at his word, being sorry if he was misinterpreted or not, he took responsibility for causing the misinterpretation.

That's a tad different from some of the apologies as of late like Trump's non-apology apologies, "I'm sorry you are sorry."

You're right that he did accept responsibility, but it rings hollow to me. And that's my completely subjective opinion, so asking me to defend it objectively is probably not going to help. I don't know that he "gets it"; on the other hand I'm not sure what that would look like, either.

logger 17th November 2017 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Craig4 (Post 12081485)
I absolutely don't condone Franken's behavior. He should absolutely suffer some consequence. That said, let's not compare oranges to apples. There is a difference between admitting wrong doing, apologizing and supporting an ethics investigation into one's self and what Moore did. Has Franken been banned from the Mall of the Americas for hitting on high school girls?

If the investigation comes up with worse behavior (I'll note the victim in this case has pointedly not called for his removal from the Senate, rather the opposite) with more women, then he should be removed from the Senate.

It’s a lie.
https://www.snopes.com/2017/11/17/ro...ng-teen-girls/

KatieG 17th November 2017 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12081444)
You don't see a massive problem with making someone the butt of a sex object joke without her consent?

Goodnight, Gracie.

The Big Dog 17th November 2017 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by logger (Post 12081480)
Surprise, another personal attack.

The ironic thing is he is complaining about partisan politics and scoring political points, and there is zero percent chance he will direct that snarky nonsense at people defending the groper.

PhantomWolf 17th November 2017 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Big Dog (Post 12081264)
Describing the effect of posting the accuser's history and posting her "NSFW" pictures is not in any way shape or form strawman.

What effect? Have the pictures altered anyone's opinion as to her credibility? The only effect I have seen of it is that you have carried on with this one horse stage show for 9 pages now instead of joining in with the rest of the conversation. All you have done in the last nine pages is scream "slut shaming".

Do you think that the NSFW photos damage her credibility? Does anyone here? If not, then why are you still going on about this after other 450 posts in this thread. Seems that the one with the issue here might be you because you are the one that keeps bring it up.

Foolmewunz 17th November 2017 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by logger (Post 12081493)

No. You don't know, they don't know and I don't know if he was banned.

logger 17th November 2017 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Foolmewunz (Post 12081505)
No. You don't know, they don't know and I don't know if he was banned.

Lol

So telling people he was banned is a lie?


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