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-   -   Senator Al Franken Kissed and Groped Me Without My Consent, And There’s Nothing Funny (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=324808)

C_Felix 7th December 2017 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger (Post 12106071)
I started a MoveOn petition:

Subject: Senator Franken DO NOT RESIGN

Hi,

Senator Franken is one of our most effective Senators, he has championed women's rights for decades. The accusations against him simply do not rise to the same level as the accusations against the other sexual abusers. We are letting the GOP bully us. We should and can stand up to this false equivalence.

That's why I created a petition to The United States Senate, which says:

"Don't let the GOP bully us into dumping Franken. The accusations against him simply do not meet the sexual predator/abuser definition."

Will you sign this petition? Click here:

http://petitions.moveon.org/sign/sen...&r_by=12563778

Thanks!

I read somewhere - forgot where - that Franken is going to wait and see if Roy Moore wins in AL to decide if he is really resigning or not.

logger 7th December 2017 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger (Post 12106071)
I started a MoveOn petition:

Subject: Senator Franken DO NOT RESIGN

Hi,

Senator Franken is one of our most effective Senators, he has championed women's rights for decades. The accusations against him simply do not rise to the same level as the accusations against the other sexual abusers. We are letting the GOP bully us. We should and can stand up to this false equivalence.

That's why I created a petition to The United States Senate, which says:

"Don't let the GOP bully us into dumping Franken. The accusations against him simply do not meet the sexual predator/abuser definition."

Will you sign this petition? Click here:

http://petitions.moveon.org/sign/sen...&r_by=12563778

Thanks!

:dl:

The Dems are solely responsible for his resignation.

Bob001 7th December 2017 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12106054)
When have the Democrats ever had the moral high ground?

Most of the time, actually. Fundamentally, Democrats, liberals, progressives support a basic principle of inclusivity: We're all in the same boat even if on different decks, we all have obligations and responsibilities to each other, winners don't get to win everything and losers don't have to lose everything.

Republicans and self-styled "conservatives" promote exclusivity: them vs. us, "makers" vs. "takers," "the 47%," the deserving and undeserving, etc., etc., most recently demonstrated by a Republican tax bill that would give the biggest breaks to the wealthiest people in the world, vastly increasing the budget deficit, followed by Paul Ryan's promise to cut Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security due to the "terrible" budget deficit. Lies, fraud and hypocrisy.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/n...206-story.html

I think you would find that Democratic principles are more consistent with the core tenets of all major religions and most social philosophies, and Republican "principles" are the ones most often decried and reviled.

thaiboxerken 7th December 2017 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12106065)
Honoring the experiences of the women who were molested by Al Franken?

The accusations of women, you mean?

thaiboxerken 7th December 2017 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cleon (Post 12106073)
OK, so you can sit over there with thaiboxerken, logger, and Ginger. You're all saying pretty much the same thing: "my sexual predator is acceptable, because otherwise the other party might win!"

**** that.

There is no credible evidence that Al Franken is a sexual predator. This was a hit job, pure and simple. It worked even better than the Republicans wanted, they get Moore in and Al out.

theprestige 7th December 2017 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cleon (Post 12106073)
OK, so you can sit over there with thaiboxerken, logger, and Ginger. You're all saying pretty much the same thing: "my sexual predator is acceptable, because otherwise the other party might win!"

Nope. Try again.

JoeMorgue 7th December 2017 06:01 PM

So let me make sure I've got the narrative clear. Women never make up sexual harassment accusations... unless those accusations are against Democrats. Is that were we are pretty much at right now?

Skeptic Ginger 7th December 2017 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cleon (Post 12106073)
OK, so you can sit over there with thaiboxerken, logger, and Ginger. You're all saying pretty much the same thing: "my sexual predator is acceptable, because otherwise the other party might win!"

**** that.

Excuse me! That is not what I said at all and you are doing the same thing that was done upthread in multiple posts, handwaving away the presented facts and substituting your dishonest version.

Skeptic Ginger 7th December 2017 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by C_Felix (Post 12106074)
I read somewhere - forgot where - that Franken is going to wait and see if Roy Moore wins in AL to decide if he is really resigning or not.

It is hopeful he said "in a couple weeks" or some similar timeframe.

Skeptic Ginger 7th December 2017 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeBentley (Post 12106120)
So let me make sure I've got the narrative clear. Women never make up sexual harassment accusations... unless those accusations are against Democrats. Is that were we are pretty much at right now?

More straw. Why don't you address the actual points that have been presented over and over.

As far as I'm concerned, the people holding to this narrative are the ones that want Franken out.

There, how do you like that, I boiled your points (do you have any points?) down to your partisan POV.

Cleon 7th December 2017 06:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger (Post 12106124)
Excuse me! That is not what I said at all and you are doing the same thing that was done upthread in multiple posts, handwaving away the presented facts and substituting your dishonest version.

Not at all, your basic claim is that all Franken's accusers are lying, and that it's a frameup job by political hacks and "fake news."

The very same claim made by supporters of Trump and Moore. The only difference is which team you're on.

#believewomenwhenpoliticallyconvenient

angrysoba 7th December 2017 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger (Post 12106071)
I started a MoveOn petition:

Subject: Senator Franken DO NOT RESIGN

Hi,

Senator Franken is one of our most effective Senators, he has championed women's rights for decades. The accusations against him simply do not rise to the same level as the accusations against the other sexual abusers. We are letting the GOP bully us. We should and can stand up to this false equivalence.

That's why I created a petition to The United States Senate, which says:

"Don't let the GOP bully us into dumping Franken. The accusations against him simply do not meet the sexual predator/abuser definition."

Will you sign this petition? Click here:

http://petitions.moveon.org/sign/sen...&r_by=12563778

Thanks!

It’s not a question of whether it rises to the same level as Moore, Trump or Ghengis Khan. We can always find worse people. The question is whether or not Franken’s behaviour is acceptable. Many people including many Democratic Senators think it is not. Now you are arguing that they don’t really believe this but are being “bullied” by the GOP. This is totally ridiculous.

What is your argument now? Is it that:

a) the accusers are lying or mistaken
b) the accusations, if true, are no big deal

thaiboxerken 7th December 2017 06:25 PM

I might believe the accusers if Roger Stone didn't let us know that there would be some prior to the accusations coming.

bruto 7th December 2017 06:26 PM

It's an interesting development, and although I suspect that Franken's transgressions are more minor than those of either Trump or Moore, they're real, and by resigning he has at least distinguished himself from them and put his money where his mouth is. It may be, as some suggest, a Democratic party action that led him to resign, but he's a Democrat too, and it's likely a good decision, painful though it may be. Of course I have no real confidence in the public, nor in the perennial apologists for Republican cynicism and hypocrisy, but it does help establish a difference between the party that (better late than never) sends predators packing and the one that happily endorses them.

Whether or not that makes any difference in the end, who knows? But at least it should help shut up the "tu quoque" chorus that invokes Franken every time someone suggests that a teen-stalking creep who threatens his victims should probably not be a senator.

thaiboxerken 7th December 2017 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bruto (Post 12106136)
But at least it should help shut up the "tu quoque" chorus that invokes Franken every time someone suggests that a teen-stalking creep who threatens his victims should probably not be a senator.

No, it will not.

JoeMorgue 7th December 2017 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bruto (Post 12106136)
But at least it should help shut up the "tu quoque" chorus that invokes Franken every time someone suggests that a teen-stalking creep who threatens his victims should probably not be a senator.

Only if "Well at least we get rid of our sexual harassers!" absolves the Democrat Party of their "guilt." ("Guilt" isn't exactly the phrase/concept I'm shooting for here. Taint? Stain? Something sorta along those lines...)

I mean I guess just having high elected leaders who aren't sexual harassers in the first place is just not an option we're allowed to talk about. As long as one side can claim they are better than the other side all talk has to stop. There are no standards but comparative standards.

Again I've just accepted that a not insignificant percent of the population is just literally, no exaggeration, mentally incapable of not framing everything in a "Well as long as 'my side' is better" framework, but they at least have to start accepting that there are people out there who are able to just have standards outside of political whataboutism.

Skeptic Ginger 7th December 2017 06:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by acbytesla (Post 12105922)
Lewinsky didn't accuse Clinton of any misbehavior.

And Jones was put up to it by the GOP that provided 6-figure lawyer for her and she ended up with a 6-figure payout to stop the appeals after she lost the case. Before the GOP offered her potential cash she had no interest in filing a lawsuit.

Broderick and Wiley are different cases and Clinton obviously had a problem.

phiwum 7th December 2017 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cleon (Post 12106008)
If your concern about doing the right thing revolves around dividends (political or otherwise), you should probably stop pretending your concerns are moral.

Nice point.

The Big Dog 7th December 2017 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bruto (Post 12106136)
It's an interesting development, and although I suspect that Franken's transgressions are more minor than those of either Trump or Moore, they're real, and by resigning he has at least distinguished himself from them and put his money where his mouth is. It may be, as some suggest, a Democratic party action that led him to resign, but he's a Democrat too, and it's likely a good decision, painful though it may be. Of course I have no real confidence in the public, nor in the perennial apologists for Republican cynicism and hypocrisy, but it does help establish a difference between the party that (better late than never) sends predators packing and the one that happily endorses them.

Whether or not that makes any difference in the end, who knows? But at least it should help shut up the "tu quoque" chorus that invokes Franken every time someone suggests that a teen-stalking creep who threatens his victims should probably not be a senator.

Quote:

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken (Post 12106139)
No, it will not.

Hee hee!! Tell me you guys are being ironic, because if so, awesome!!!

johnny karate 7th December 2017 07:07 PM

If a woman accuses a man of sexual assault/harrassment, there are three possibilities:

1) The accusations are completely true.

2) The accusations are completely false.

3) The accusations aren’t completely true, but the accused engaged in just enough inappropriate behavior to make a full-throated denial impossible.

Franken brought this on himself.

Resigning is the right thing to do.

Let the Republicans be the party of pussy grabbers and child molesters.

Regnad Kcin 7th December 2017 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crescent (Post 12105894)
I know - but he was defended at the time. Lewinsky, Jones, Broaddrick, and the others were not believed and had their reputations attacked. You and I and many others now look back on that with distaste, or, if we were old enough to be politically savvy at the time, shame. We (liberal/progressive/Democrats/and the like) changed our perception of such things, or were replaced by the newer generations.

A good many conservatives don't care about the change in lib/prog/dem perspective, though. They need a whatabout proxy, and Clinton is the best they have - and that's weak tea.

And still trotting out the corpse of Ted Kennedy. Not to mention Robert “Democrat klansman” Byrd for other special occasions. But to be fair, Nixon still ranks among the greats in the bogeyman hall of fame.

In other words, whatever brush paints most, best.

Regnad Kcin 7th December 2017 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bluesjnr (Post 12106005)
He put his arm around her waist and squeezed twice and as a result,

"It shrunk me. It’s like I was no longer a person, only ornamental. It said, “You don’t matter—and I do.”

What a pile of pish.

Quite.

Regnad Kcin 7th December 2017 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward (Post 12106023)
There is no point in winning if you live with low moral character.

...in a perfect world.

Regnad Kcin 7th December 2017 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cleon (Post 12106062)
Pitiful indeed. They should've stood by their sexual predator out of political considerations. It's the American way!

:mad:

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12106065)
Honoring the experiences of the women who were molested by Al Franken?

Exaggeration tends to weaken arguments, not strengthen them.

acbytesla 7th December 2017 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward (Post 12106038)
The people who want power get their power. The people who care about Character maintain theirs. Sounds win win.

Almost By definition, people who have character do not maintain it for external rewards.

And that helps the poor and working class how?

Bob001 7th December 2017 08:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by C_Felix (Post 12106074)
I read somewhere - forgot where - that Franken is going to wait and see if Roy Moore wins in AL to decide if he is really resigning or not.

He said pretty clearly that he will resign in the next few weeks, after saying he couldn't represent the people of Minnesota effectively. The majority of Democratic senators have called for his resignation. Nothing tentative about his statement.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/power...=.618e978249db

Regnad Kcin 7th December 2017 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnny karate (Post 12106161)
If a woman accuses a man of sexual assault/harrassment, there are three possibilities:

1) The accusations are completely true.

2) The accusations are completely false.

3) The accusations aren’t completely true, but the accused engaged in just enough inappropriate behavior to make a full-throated denial impossible.

Franken brought this on himself.

Resigning is the right thing to do.

Let the Republicans be the party of pussy grabbers and child molesters.

I’ll suggest another possibility:

4) Different people can (and often do) have radically different interpretations and subsequent judgements of behavior.

Presented with what on first glance appears to be a clear-cut scenario, one may objectively find there can be more than one valid choice among possibilities.

theprestige 7th December 2017 08:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Regnad Kcin (Post 12106220)
I’ll suggest another possibility:

4) Different people can (and often do) have radically different interpretations and subsequent judgements of behavior.

Presented with what on first glance appears to be a clear-cut scenario, one may objectively find there can be more than one valid choice among possibilities.

That sounds like jk's option (3) to me.

Puppycow 8th December 2017 12:50 AM

Masha Gessen in the New Yorker:

Al Franken’s Resignation and the Selective Force of #MeToo

Quote:

On what he called the worst day of his political life, Senator Al Franken articulated two points that are central to understanding what has become known as the #MeToo moment. In an eleven-minute speech, in which Franken announced his intention to resign from the Senate, he made this much clear: the force that is ending his political career is greater than the truth, and this force operates on only roughly half of this country’s population—those who voted for Hillary Clinton and who consume what we still refer to as mainstream media.

There was one notable absence in his speech: Franken did not apologize. In fact, he made it clear that he disagreed with his accusers. “Some of the allegations against me are simply not true,” he said. “Others I remember very differently.” Earlier, Franken had in fact apologized to his accusers, and he didn’t take his apologies back now, but he made it plain that they had been issued in the hopes of facilitating a conversation and an investigation that would clear him. He had, it seems, been attempting to buy calm time to work while a Senate ethics committee looked into the accusations. But, by Thursday morning, thirty-two Democratic senators had called on Franken to resign. The force of the #MeToo moment leaves no room for due process, or, indeed, for Franken’s own constituents to consider their choice.

Still, the force works selectively. “I, of all people, am aware that there is some irony in the fact that I am leaving while a man who has bragged on tape about his history of sexual assault sits in the Oval Office and a man who has repeatedly preyed on young girls campaigns for the Senate with the full support of his party,” said Franken, referring to Donald Trump and the Alabama Senate candidate Roy Moore. Trump and Moore are immune because the blunt irresistible force works only on the other half of the country.

. . .
Not sure if I agree with her but it's an interesting perspective.

uke2se 8th December 2017 01:31 AM

Franken resigning is the right thing to do from a moral perspective, and even politically, it's likely the right thing to do in the long term. Short term, it gives people like the conservatives crowing jubilantly in this thread the opportunity to shift the focus from the complete moral rot the GOP is in, but long term, the question of sexual harassment is becoming such a big issue that to do the right thing now prevents you from having to do the "right" thing later, and it shows which party is really about personal responsibility.

Minoosh 8th December 2017 01:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by uke2se (Post 12106416)
Short term, it gives people like the conservatives crowing jubilantly in this thread the opportunity to shift the focus from the complete moral rot the GOP is in ...

Well they crow at their own peril, because the contrast with Moore, Trump et al. could not be more conspicuous.

The Don 8th December 2017 01:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minoosh (Post 12106419)
Well they crow at their own peril, because the contrast with Moore, Trump et al. could not be more conspicuous.

So what ?

The great misinformed majority of the US electorate go away with the idea that Al Franken is some kind of terrible sexual predator - after all if a guy who molested 14-year olds is fine, what must Al Franken have done to actually resign - whilst people who do molest 14-year olds, or grab ****** are just good ol' boys or are indulging in locker room talk.

For low information voters, the Democratic Party are the party of sexual predators (Ted Kennedy, Bill Clinton, Anthony Wiener, Al Franken) whereas the GOP is merely fighting a valiant rearguard action against the evils of political correctness. :rolleyes:

angrysoba 8th December 2017 01:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Don (Post 12106428)
So what ?

The great misinformed majority of the US electorate go away with the idea that Al Franken is some kind of terrible sexual predator - after all if a guy who molested 14-year olds is fine, what must Al Franken have done to actually resign - whilst people who do molest 14-year olds, or grab ****** are just good ol' boys or are indulging in locker room talk.

For low information voters, the Democratic Party are the party of sexual predators (Ted Kennedy, Bill Clinton, Anthony Wiener, Al Franken) whereas the GOP is merely fighting a valiant rearguard action against the evils of political correctness. :rolleyes:

What can be done about the low information voters?

One thing that shouldn’t be done is to consider whether or not someone should resign on the basis of what stupid people might think about it.

It should be done on the basis of whether or not the offense merited resignation.

BobTheCoward 8th December 2017 01:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Regnad Kcin (Post 12106197)
...in a perfect world.

The Hebrews of Masada did not live in a perfect world.

BobTheCoward 8th December 2017 01:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by acbytesla (Post 12106203)
And that helps the poor and working class how?

As voters, it is up to each person to decide how much they want the candidate to act ethically. If the poor and working class prioritize receiving largesse from the state over ethical leadership, they can choose candidates who do also.

The Don 8th December 2017 02:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by angrysoba (Post 12106431)
What can be done about the low information voters?

One thing that shouldn’t be done is to consider whether or not someone should resign on the basis of what stupid people might think about it.

It should be done on the basis of whether or not the offense merited resignation.

True, I was pointing out that when Minoosh said....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minoosh
Well they crow at their own peril, because the contrast with Moore, Trump et al. could not be more conspicuous.

...that I disagree, or more accurately there is a conspicuous contrast but for low information voters (who are the majority), the contrast is entirely in the other direction - GOP good and honourable, Democratic Party - full of sexual predators.

Minoosh 8th December 2017 02:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Don (Post 12106428)
So what ?

The great misinformed majority of the US electorate go away with the idea that Al Franken is some kind of terrible sexual predator - after all if a guy who molested 14-year olds is fine, what must Al Franken have done to actually resign - whilst people who do molest 14-year olds, or grab ****** are just good ol' boys or are indulging in locker room talk.

For low information voters, the Democratic Party are the party of sexual predators (Ted Kennedy, Bill Clinton, Anthony Wiener, Al Franken) whereas the GOP is merely fighting a valiant rearguard action against the evils of political correctness. :rolleyes:

I think this picture is painted with overly broad strokes. Even Hannity was apparently somewhat disgusted by Moore. So was Mitch McConnell. Surely Fox News voters have noticed the absence of Bill O'Reilly. There are plenty of Republicans who are far from OK with sexual harassers, and "whataboutism" has taken a blow.

I know a few Trump voters. A very low sample, but I think they're getting a bit tired of him. My nephew volunteered that he hadn't worn his NFL clothes all year - the implication that he began distancing himself from the NFL before Trump's tantrums. Clearly he did not want to be seen as just jumping on Trump's bandwagon. He idolizes my father and who did my father fight? Nazis. My brother earlier ridiculed Trump's statement that there was violence on "many sides" in Charlottesville. His complaint was that there were only 2 sides, so he objected on a technicality. But he thought it was stupid, and said so.

Weak tea? Yes. But things are starting to add up. The Russia investigation is the least of it, IMO, but it's trivially true that Trump encouraged Russia to hack into U.S. servers, and that he made a fairly clear attempt to ask Jim Comey to go light on Michael Flynn. His tweeting makes it painfully obvious that he does not keep his eye on the ball ... even if his followers agree with every tweet.

I don't learn much about Trump supporters if I picture them as an undifferentiated mass. They are individuals, with there own opinions on sexual harassment, defending Nazis, vows to increase pollution and dozens of other issues that could cause different groups to peel off from hardcore support. There are the hardcore crowd, of course. But the share of Republican voters is shrinking; it's dropped about 4 percentage points.

I know this is too much of an answer in relation to the thread topic. I'm just saying, it's cumulative. I believe he is slowly losing support, as is the GOP. Knock on wood. If I want to talk more about this I'll do so in the Trump presidency thread.

Darat 8th December 2017 04:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Don (Post 12106428)
So what ?

The great misinformed majority of the US electorate go away with the idea that Al Franken is some kind of terrible sexual predator - after all if a guy who molested 14-year olds is fine, what must Al Franken have done to actually resign - whilst people who do molest 14-year olds, or grab ****** are just good ol' boys or are indulging in locker room talk.

For low information voters, the Democratic Party are the party of sexual predators (Ted Kennedy, Bill Clinton, Anthony Wiener, Al Franken) whereas the GOP is merely fighting a valiant rearguard action against the evils of political correctness. :rolleyes:

Have you thought working for the republicans? You've got a great feel for their double-speak! :D

varwoche 8th December 2017 04:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by William Parcher (Post 12105602)
Trump is a compulsive liar. For him, telling lies is like breathing. He would happily tell lies about grabbing pussies even if he had never touched one in his life.

The guy is notorious for telling lies but then all of a sudden when he talks about pussies he's telling truths? Nope!

Overlooking the fact there are women who credibly allege Trump actually did what he said he did.

LTC8K6 8th December 2017 04:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerrymander (Post 12105999)
And you probably won't learn until someone close to you is victimized by someone in power and they are allowed to stay in power because someone did not have a HD video of the assault.

I won't wait decades to speak up, though.

I'm glad that you seem to agree that some evidence is necessary, but sad to see that you jumped to claiming that I want HD video of an event before I believe it happened.


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