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-   -   Senator Al Franken Kissed and Groped Me Without My Consent, And Thereís Nothing Funny (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=324808)

tyr_13 5th January 2018 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ahhell (Post 12136202)
Pure coincidence that they start taking action when its politically advantageous to do so.

Well that's incorrect in that taking this action doesn't mean they weren't taking other, easier, actions (for as long as I've been alive), and it also means it's clearly politically advantageous to do so now. There was and still is a massive risk here. After all, Trump got elected after bragging about sexual assault (and even if one doesn't believe he did the things he and the women say he did, that's still extra scummy). It looks like it's a clear winner for Dem voters, but if it would work with independents and enough Republicans wasn't clear at all until Moore. That one shows it's an energizer for the Dem base, and with some independents and a much smaller number of Republicans.

What makes it politically advantageous? Think this one through. The reason it's politically advantageous now is that people care enough to hold people accountable, which I should note is what Dems have been arguing for for a long time now. Did their advocacy of this effect the changes in the opinion of voters, or did the opinion of voters only force them to do this? Isn't that one way politics is supposed to operate in a democracy anyway? It is one of the control methods. It being politically advantageous isn't even a slam against Dems in that regard. It would be slam on them if it were politically advantageous but also a bad thing.

Dr. Keith 5th January 2018 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ahhell (Post 12136202)
Pure coincidence that they start taking action when its politically advantageous to do so.

No, but quite telling that the GOP is not taking any action even though it could have been politically advantageous for them to do so.

quadraginta 5th January 2018 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ahhell (Post 12136003)
I think it will be good for the party and good for society. I think they will and I hope eventually the GOP will to. Moore loosing the election may push even the GOP in the right direction on that score.


I admire your optimism, but you should bear in mind that the official GOP position is that Roy Moore never did anything wrong, and that all his problems were the result of outrageous lies by leebruls and the 'Deep State'.

johnny karate 5th January 2018 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ahhell (Post 12136202)
Pure coincidence that they start taking action when its politically advantageous to do so.

Yes, what a huge political advantage it was for Democrats to have Franken resign his Senate seat. Iím sure Republicans are still reeling.

Perhaps for their next master stroke, every Democrat in the Senate will resign.

Regnad Kcin 5th January 2018 09:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lurch (Post 12135060)
And where Trump and Moore supporters might say the whole thing is a cynical, calculated ploy, it does not alter the fact that Franken paid a price, and that his ouster is nonetheless something of a gamble that does not guarantee an equally effective/popular replacement.

As opposed to the two first mentioned accused and their crowd of backers, who pretty much as a body cravenly shrug, deny, attack, distract and never admit to the slightest fragment of anything.

Sen. Kirsten Gillibrand: Al Franken, we think you should resign.

Al Franken: (sigh) Okay.

Sen. Kirsten Gillibrand: President Trump, we think you should resign.

Donald “Dice” Trump: Ha ha ha, yeah. Now get over here and blow me.

thaiboxerken 7th January 2018 08:47 PM

One defense used for Trump about sexual misconduct is that Trump just brags about things he doesn't really do when he brags about grabbing pussy. Nice.

ahhell 8th January 2018 07:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyr_13 (Post 12136216)
Well that's incorrect in that taking this action doesn't mean they weren't taking other, easier, actions (for as long as I've been alive), and it also means it's clearly politically advantageous to do so now. There was and still is a massive risk here. After all, Trump got elected after bragging about sexual assault (and even if one doesn't believe he did the things he and the women say he did, that's still extra scummy). It looks like it's a clear winner for Dem voters, but if it would work with independents and enough Republicans wasn't clear at all until Moore. That one shows it's an energizer for the Dem base, and with some independents and a much smaller number of Republicans.

What makes it politically advantageous? Think this one through. The reason it's politically advantageous now is that people care enough to hold people accountable, which I should note is what Dems have been arguing for for a long time now. Did their advocacy of this effect the changes in the opinion of voters, or did the opinion of voters only force them to do this? Isn't that one way politics is supposed to operate in a democracy anyway? It is one of the control methods. It being politically advantageous isn't even a slam against Dems in that regard. It would be slam on them if it were politically advantageous but also a bad thing.

Dems, some anyway, have been talking about sexual harassment and assault for a long time but when it came to actually holding their own people to account, not so much. As I noted, they've bee part of congress that set up secret settlements for **** like this to avoid accountability.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr. Keith (Post 12136254)
No, but quite telling that the GOP is not taking any action even though it could have been politically advantageous for them to do so.

The GOP is taking about as much action as the Dems really. There have been a couple of recent congressmen forced to step down on account of harassment charges.

There is pretty much nothing they could have done about more, the national party fought him in the party and about the only prominent republican that endorsed him was Trump. They fought Trump in the primary and lost.

Getting rid of Franken and others now, only helps the Dems politically. If some Dem in a purple district his accused of something and they're force to retire, you all may have a point but so far its dems in safe dem seats.

LTC8K6 9th January 2018 09:59 AM

James Franco's turn now, apparently.

bruto 9th January 2018 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken (Post 12138372)
One defense used for Trump about sexual misconduct is that Trump just brags about things he doesn't really do when he brags about grabbing pussy. Nice.

I've always wondered in what strange mind an incompetent blunderer bragging about being a reprehensible creep might be less creepy than simply being one.

theprestige 9th January 2018 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bruto (Post 12140433)
I've always wondered in what strange mind an incompetent blunderer bragging about being a reprehensible creep might be less creepy than simply being one.

If creepiness is the new metric, and all creepiness is equally creepy, then you gotta admit the Al Franken "breast grope" photo is hella creepy. Like disqualifyingly creepy.

thaiboxerken 9th January 2018 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12140457)
If creepiness is the new metric, and all creepiness is equally creepy, then you gotta admit the Al Franken "breast grope" photo is hella creepy. Like disqualifyingly creepy.

No.

Distasteful, yes. Creepy, no.

Trump's bragging about grabbing pussy, that was creepy.

theprestige 9th January 2018 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken (Post 12140465)
No.

Distasteful, yes. Creepy, no.

Trump's bragging about grabbing pussy, that was creepy.

Special pleading.

quadraginta 9th January 2018 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12140509)
Special pleading.


Irony.

ahhell 9th January 2018 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12140457)
If creepiness is the new metric, and all creepiness is equally creepy, then you gotta admit the Al Franken "breast grope" photo is hella creepy. Like disqualifyingly creepy.

Struck me more as a childish prank rather than creepy. Pretending to grope her breasts through a flack jacket, stupid joke if you're 13, bizarrely immature for a man in his 50s?

Skeptic Ginger 9th January 2018 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ahhell (Post 12140647)
Struck me more as a childish prank rather than creepy. Pretending to grope her breasts through a flack jacket, stupid joke if you're 13, bizarrely immature for a man in his 50s?

Only if you ignore the setting, a USO tour where fake grope jokes were common on stage. It's not a stretch to think cast members would play such pranks off stage as well.

applecorped 9th January 2018 12:38 PM

Did she think it was a prank?:rolleyes:

quadraginta 9th January 2018 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ahhell (Post 12140647)
Struck me more as a childish prank rather than creepy. Pretending to grope her breasts through a flack jacket, stupid joke if you're 13, bizarrely immature for a man in his 50s?


Not so much for a comedian in his fifties. Immature kinda goes with the territory for many (most?) of them.

LTC8K6 9th January 2018 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger (Post 12140651)
Only if you ignore the setting, a USO tour where fake grope jokes were common on stage. It's not a stretch to think cast members would play such pranks off stage as well.

Did Franken use that defense?

It certainly wasn't on stage.

I am actually perplexed at Franken's resignation. Particularly prior to a Senate investigation.

What we have seen seems so mild that I'm starting to think there was something we didn't hear about.

ahhell 9th January 2018 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger (Post 12140651)
Only if you ignore the setting, a USO tour where fake grope jokes were common on stage. It's not a stretch to think cast members would play such pranks off stage as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by quadraginta (Post 12140786)
Not so much for a comedian in his fifties. Immature kinda goes with the territory for many (most?) of them.

Ok, merely immature not bizarrely immature. :p

Nothing in the same league as what Weinstein or Moore have been accused of mind you. It really surprised me how seriously some folks have taken that photo, some folks not even motivated by obvious partisanship have taken that photo as evidence of assault. There are other more serious allegations against Franken* but the photo seemed to really galvanize people. It wasn't even clear that he was touching her flack jacket.


*unwanted tongues, though I don't even think that really merits his resignation.

Skeptic Ginger 9th January 2018 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LTC8K6 (Post 12140796)
Did Franken use that defense?

It certainly wasn't on stage.

I am actually perplexed at Franken's resignation. Particularly prior to a Senate investigation.

What we have seen seems so mild that I'm starting to think there was something we didn't hear about.

No he didn't, so what? He went out of his way to apologize and take responsibility for being offensive.

We've been over this ad nauseum in this thread.

And no he should not have resigned.

Skeptic Ginger 9th January 2018 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ahhell (Post 12140798)
Ok, merely immature not bizarrely immature. :p

Nothing in the same league as what Weinstein or Moore have been accused of mind you. It really surprised me how seriously some folks have taken that photo, some folks not even motivated by obvious partisanship have taken that photo as evidence of assault. There are other more serious allegations against Franken* but the photo seemed to really galvanize people. It wasn't even clear that he was touching her flack jacket.

Sure fake grope jokes were fine for Tweeden. Double standard much?


Quote:

*unwanted tongues, though I don't even think that really merits his resignation.
Nor is it clear that part actually happened.

LTC8K6 9th January 2018 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger (Post 12140810)
No he didn't, so what? He went out of his way to apologize and take responsibility for being offensive.

We've been over this ad nauseum in this thread.

And no he should not have resigned.

Well, I would probably accept that as a defense, if such jokes were common and Franken was not alone in joking around like that.

Skeptic Ginger 9th January 2018 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LTC8K6 (Post 12140812)
Well, I would probably accept that as a defense, if such jokes were common and Franken was not alone in joking around like that.

The evidence is cited upthread multiple times including videos of Tweeden joke groping and kissing an unsuspecting soldier on stage if the look in his open wide eyes say what they look like they say.

The Big Dog 9th January 2018 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger (Post 12140816)
The evidence is cited upthread multiple times including videos of Tweeden joke groping and kissing an unsuspecting soldier on stage if the look in his open wide eyes say what they look like they say.

oy vey, still victim blaming and attacking the women who spoke out against Franken?

Weird what hills people chose to defend...

luchog 9th January 2018 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Big Dog (Post 12140839)
oy vey, still victim blaming and attacking the women who spoke out against Franken?

Weird what hills people chose to defend...


What about Tweedens' victims?

Oh right, I forgot, men aren't allowed to be victims...

LTC8K6 10th January 2018 05:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger (Post 12140816)
The evidence is cited upthread multiple times including videos of Tweeden joke groping and kissing an unsuspecting soldier on stage if the look in his open wide eyes say what they look like they say.

Yes, but they seem a little different than backstage in a room or while asleep on a flight.

I'm old (fashioned) anyway, and believe in a double standard where any woman I am attracted to can kiss me unexpectedly any time she wants, but I cannot kiss her unexpectedly any time I want.

The Big Dog 10th January 2018 07:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by luchog (Post 12140929)
What about Tweedens' victims?

Oh right, I forgot, men aren't allowed to be victims...

Mentioning Tweeden's "victims" in post replying to a post pointing out that people are still attacking Frankens accusers.

That is some meta stuff there!

wow.

luchog 10th January 2018 08:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Big Dog (Post 12141562)
Mentioning Tweeden's "victims" in post replying to a post pointing out that people are still attacking Frankens accusers.

That is some meta stuff there!


Maybe you should take more time and put more effort into your evasions, you'd sound less childish.

Not seeing anyone here attacking anyone, just pointing out Tweeden's accusations have a rather unpleasant smell of manipulation to them; and some of the rest are questionable. None of which certainly comes up to the level of the current reigning GOP leadership, who you and others here seem to like to drool over. Accountability has to work both ways.

The Big Dog 10th January 2018 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by luchog (Post 12141690)
Maybe you should take more time and put more effort into your evasions, you'd sound less childish.

MY "evasions"? Oh mercy, that is *********** rich! You see this thread is about Al Franken's conduct. An "evasion" would be if someone attacked and belittled his numerous victims by derailing the discussion to Tweeden's so called "victims."

Now you accuse her of making manipulated claims and hand wave away the balance by declaring them "questionable." So questionable that Franken resigned, huh?

Typical though, as i said before, Franken resigns in disgrace and people continue to charge up and die on the hill of his defense by attacking HIS. NUMEROUS. VICTIMS.

bluesjnr 11th January 2018 05:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LTC8K6 (Post 12141477)
...snip... Iím old (fashioned) anyway, and believe in a double standard where any woman I am attracted to can kiss me unexpectedly any time she wants, but I cannot kiss her unexpectedly any time I want.

Have more respect for yourself and for those women who donít match your arbitrary measure of attractiveness.

The playing field needs to be levelled.

LTC8K6 11th January 2018 07:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bluesjnr (Post 12142936)
Have more respect for yourself and for those women who donít match your arbitrary measure of attractiveness.

The playing field needs to be levelled.

I'm not sure I can do anything about my "arbitrary measure of attractiveness" for women. I'm either attracted, or I'm not.

If a woman I am not attracted to kissed me unexpectedly, I wouldn't file any charges or make any complaints.

I wouldn't claim to have been sexually harassed because some signs were read wrong, or someone was tipsy at a party, and I got an unwanted kiss.

bluesjnr 11th January 2018 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LTC8K6 (Post 12143190)
I'm not sure I can do anything about my "arbitrary measure of attractiveness" for women. I'm either attracted, or I'm not.

If a woman I am not attracted to kissed me unexpectedly, I wouldn't file any charges or make any complaints.

I wouldn't claim to have been sexually harassed because some signs were read wrong, or someone was tipsy at a party, and I got an unwanted kiss.

I'll repeat. The playing field needs to be levelled, join the revolution.

#waddaboutus?

LTC8K6 11th January 2018 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bluesjnr (Post 12143636)
I'll repeat. The playing field needs to be levelled, join the revolution.

#waddaboutus?

Nah. I tend to watch revolutions, not join them. :)

Even if I dismiss my double standard, I wouldn't complain or file charges or call my employer.

If it was an ongoing problem/thing, that would be different.

Skeptic Ginger 11th January 2018 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LTC8K6 (Post 12141477)
Yes, but they seem a little different than backstage in a room or while asleep on a flight..

Come on, it was a joke, he apologized, the atmosphere clearly would have been important context that this was not the same as the guys truly harassing women.

LTC8K6 18th January 2018 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger (Post 12143647)
Come on, it was a joke, he apologized, the atmosphere clearly would have been important context that this was not the same as the guys truly harassing women.

But then he seems to have been forced out of his job over it, so maybe we don't know the whole story?

His resignation still makes no sense at all to me. (unless I think "more to the story")

luchog 18th January 2018 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LTC8K6 (Post 12152317)
His resignation still makes no sense at all to me. (unless I think "more to the story")


Or one takes an Honor Before Reason approach to the moral high ground, which definitely appears to be the case here.

ahhell 18th January 2018 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LTC8K6 (Post 12152317)
But then he seems to have been forced out of his job over it, so maybe we don't know the whole story?

His resignation still makes no sense at all to me. (unless I think "more to the story")

Quote:

Originally Posted by luchog (Post 12152340)
Or one takes an Honor Before Reason approach to the moral high ground, which definitely appears to be the case here.

Its just smart politics, clears the field of the most high profile Dem with a sex scandal. The tu toque from the GOP will be less persuasive. He'll be replaced with another reliable Dem so the Dems don't really loose anything.

From the Dem's perspective, moderate gain and minimal loss. Its possible Franken decided if something this lame is going to cause a ********* its not worth fighting, its possible the leadership just doesn't like him, its possible there's something still in the closet. I bet on the first choice though, he came from a profession where fake grabbing a women's tits was tame and then this.

theprestige 18th January 2018 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LTC8K6 (Post 12152317)
But then he seems to have been forced out of his job over it, so maybe we don't know the whole story?

His resignation still makes no sense at all to me. (unless I think "more to the story")

We do know the whole story, though: A number of Democratic Senators called for his resignation, even making it clear that they would not be able to work with him if he stayed in office. At least one Senator later expressed regret, saying that their call for his resignation was hasty and ill-considered. But the majority never withdrew their demand, and faced with this intransigence from his own party, Franken didn't have much of a choice.

Originally he was going to go through a pro forma ethics committee review, and then get back to work.

Mikemcc 18th January 2018 04:32 PM

It's a shame that he behaved so stupidly. He was eloquent and always made sure that he was clued up before he raised questions.

theprestige 18th January 2018 07:22 PM

I think if it weren't for that photo, he would be a Senator today.


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