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-   -   Senator Al Franken Kissed and Groped Me Without My Consent, And There’s Nothing Funny (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=324808)

luchog 22nd July 2019 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by plague311 (Post 12762740)
I'm not up in arms either way. I think Franken got steamrolled, and that article just goes to prove it. It's one of the biggest **** ups I think the Dem party has made, outside of putting Hillary up against Trump, in the last few years.


Not only steamrolled, which is bad enough. If the article is accurate (and it appears to be), it's also quite apparent that the incident was heavily engineered by conservatives to draw attention away from the far more egregious misdeeds of their own politicos. Tweeten's certainly ingratiated herself solidly into that crowd.

ArchSas 22nd July 2019 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by luchog (Post 12762793)
Not only steamrolled, which is bad enough. If the article is accurate (and it appears to be), it's also quite apparent that the incident was heavily engineered by conservatives to draw attention away from the far more egregious misdeeds of their own politicos. Tweeten's certainly ingratiated herself solidly into that crowd.

And even worse, that it wasn't only engineered, it was something figures like Hannity had been aware of for years, but had kept in reserves until the time when it would hurt Franken/democrats the most. A response to Roy Moore was just the most opportune time.

applecorped 22nd July 2019 04:49 PM

#metoo

Minoosh 22nd July 2019 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArchSas (Post 12762804)
And even worse, that it wasn't only engineered, it was something figures like Hannity had been aware of for years, but had kept in reserves until the time when it would hurt Franken/democrats the most. A response to Roy Moore was just the most opportune time.

I'm not sure what makes that bad, exactly. It's a dirty trick, but frankly I wish the Democrats were showing themselves to be more adept at dirty tricks.

I haven't read the article yet, though.

luchog 22nd July 2019 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minoosh (Post 12762851)
I'm not sure what makes that bad, exactly. It's a dirty trick, but frankly I wish the Democrats were showing themselves to be more adept at dirty tricks.


Problem is, if they were, why would there be any reason to vote for them over the Republicans? The kind of mindset that thinks exaggerating a minor incident into a huge public outcry just to distract from one's own public peccadilloes in their mad dash for more and greater power is a good thing isn't exactly the sort of person who gives a rat's about universal healthcare or civil rights or balanced budgets.

There's a very good reason why dirty tricks have always been the domain of the worst sorts of people. The Dems are not exactly paragons of virtue, but at least they have some moral standards that they try and uphold. The kind of politicians who would engineer something like Watergate or the Tweeten accusations are the same sort who go around shouting slogans like "better a paedophile than a liberal" without the slightest shred of irony, and jacking up the prices of lifesaving drugs by 1000% for no other reason than pure greed. Dirty tricks are the domain of bad people, and I'd really rather not see the Dems become any worse than they already are.

Brainster 22nd July 2019 06:08 PM

#believethewomenunlesstheyaccuseDemocrats

TragicMonkey 22nd July 2019 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dann (Post 12762632)

Does he mention also regretting the sexual misconduct?

Skeptic Ginger 22nd July 2019 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brainster (Post 12762879)
#believethewomenunlesstheyaccuseDemocrats

Riight, because you can't distinguish between a comedian making jokes and actual sexual abuse.

Skeptic Ginger 22nd July 2019 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey (Post 12762886)
Does he mention also regretting the sexual misconduct?

Seems to me that some of you can't tell the difference when the accusations are against Democrats.

TragicMonkey 22nd July 2019 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger (Post 12762890)
Seems to me that some of you can't tell the difference when the accusations are against Democrats.

What are you trying to say? Did Franken do the things of which he was accused? By women, not the Republican Party. Is he denying they happened, or admitting they did happen but saying he regrets them? Or is he only regretting the consequences and not the actions that led to them?

Expressing regret at the penance but not the sin that merited it isn't exactly honorable behavior.

And if you think I'm a Republican you are quite mistaken.

Skeptic Ginger 22nd July 2019 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey (Post 12762907)
What are you trying to say? Did Franken do the things of which he was accused? By women, not the Republican Party. Is he denying they happened, or admitting they did happen but saying he regrets them? Or is he only regretting the consequences and not the actions that led to them?

Expressing regret at the penance but not the sin that merited it isn't exactly honorable behavior.

And if you think I'm a Republican you are quite mistaken.

I'm saying, and I said it before, not all sexual abuse is the same. Why argue this over again. Go back to the beginning of this thread.

I'm sorry that you think a boob joke by a comedian is somehow as horrific as pressuring women to have sex for movie roles or promotions, but that's your problem.

Tens of women did not turn up to accuse Franken, now did they? The women who worked with Franken all stood up for him.

What's left? A woman on the USO Tour that hated Franken and was disgusted with a stage kiss. Where are the dozens more describing similar incidents? There aren't any, none.

Then you have a bunch of women who thought he was a little handsy during selfies. OMG how awful. :rolleyes:

Franken refused to defend himself because he didn't want to attack the women. He couldn't be more of a gentleman than that.

We can believe these women and still use our heads sorting this stuff out.

Franken isn't a Weinstein, an Epstein, or a Judge Moore.

You guys need to use a little common sense judgement.

TragicMonkey 23rd July 2019 03:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger (Post 12762976)
I'm saying, and I said it before, not all sexual abuse is the same. Why argue this over again. Go back to the beginning of this thread.

I'm sorry that you think a boob joke by a comedian is somehow as horrific as pressuring women to have sex for movie roles or promotions, but that's your problem.

Tens of women did not turn up to accuse Franken, now did they? The women who worked with Franken all stood up for him.

What's left? A woman on the USO Tour that hated Franken and was disgusted with a stage kiss. Where are the dozens more describing similar incidents? There aren't any, none.

Then you have a bunch of women who thought he was a little handsy during selfies. OMG how awful. :rolleyes:

Franken refused to defend himself because he didn't want to attack the women. He couldn't be more of a gentleman than that.

We can believe these women and still use our heads sorting this stuff out.

Franken isn't a Weinstein, an Epstein, or a Judge Moore.

You guys need to use a little common sense judgement.

I didn't argue that all sexual abuse is the same.

I'm saying all sexual abuse is bad. That a worse instance of a bad thing exists does not make another instance of a bad thing good. Murder exists, does that mean a nonfatal beating is acceptable behavior? Cosby's rapes are worse than Kevin Spacey's gropes, does that mean Spacey deserves forgiveness?

It's contemptible how flexible some people's ethics become when politics are involved. Sexual assault is bad. Full stop. A D or R after the perpetrator's name does not make it excusable.

Regnad Kcin 23rd July 2019 04:14 AM

“Sexual assault is bad.”

So, sometimes, are absolutes.

TragicMonkey 23rd July 2019 04:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Regnad Kcin (Post 12763187)
“Sexual assault is bad.”

So, sometimes, are absolutes.

Can you cite an example of an occasion when sexual assault is not a bad thing?

paiute 23rd July 2019 05:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey (Post 12763197)
Can you cite an example of an occasion when sexual assault is not a bad thing?

Define for us on the scale of man-woman interaction where the line of sexual assault/not sexual assault is.

Giz 23rd July 2019 05:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger (Post 12762976)

Franken refused to defend himself because he didn't want to attack the women. He couldn't be more of a gentleman than that.

That seems incredibly patronizing of him. Surely if one adult makes a false accusation to another adult, it should be challenged?

More evidence that he doesn’t respect women?

TragicMonkey 23rd July 2019 05:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by paiute (Post 12763246)
Define for us on the scale of man-woman interaction where the line of sexual assault/not sexual assault is.

That's a separate question. Reginald responded to the claim "sexual assault is bad" by saying "so are absolutes, sometimes" which implies there are circumstances when sexual assault is not bad. Neither of us challenged the definition of sexual assault. I certainly didn't claim that things that aren't sexual assault are bad.

plague311 23rd July 2019 06:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey (Post 12763157)
I didn't argue that all sexual abuse is the same.

I'm saying all sexual abuse is bad. That a worse instance of a bad thing exists does not make another instance of a bad thing good. Murder exists, does that mean a nonfatal beating is acceptable behavior? Cosby's rapes are worse than Kevin Spacey's gropes, does that mean Spacey deserves forgiveness?

It's contemptible how flexible some people's ethics become when politics are involved. Sexual assault is bad. Full stop. A D or R after the perpetrator's name does not make it excusable.

Did you read the article at all? A simple yes or no.

TragicMonkey 23rd July 2019 07:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by plague311 (Post 12763323)
Did you read the article at all? A simple yes or no.

Yes. And I reread this entire thread. I do not agree with the suggestions offered: that Franken didn't do anything, that Franken did something but it wasn't bad, that sexual assault isn't necessarily bad, that Franken deserves forgiveness, or that he's been unfairly persecuted because of his political party.

I am not a Republican, I am not a prude, I am not an unbendingly stern judge of human sin. I just happen to think that 1) sexual assault is a bad thing, 2) the accusations against Franken are credible, 3) there should be no forgiveness without repentance, and 4) much if not most of his defenders are motivated by political partisanship.

applecorped 23rd July 2019 07:06 AM

^^^^^^

applecorped 23rd July 2019 07:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger (Post 12762887)
Riight, because you can't distinguish between a comedian making jokes and actual sexual abuse.

well, you can't obviously

plague311 23rd July 2019 07:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey (Post 12763331)
Yes. And I reread this entire thread. I do not agree with the suggestions offered: that Franken didn't do anything, that Franken did something but it wasn't bad, that sexual assault isn't necessarily bad, that Franken deserves forgiveness, or that he's been unfairly persecuted because of his political party.

I am not a Republican, I am not a prude, I am not an unbendingly stern judge of human sin. I just happen to think that 1) sexual assault is a bad thing, 2) the accusations against Franken are credible, 3) there should be no forgiveness without repentance, and 4) much if not most of his defenders are motivated by political partisanship.

Ok, I just wanted to make sure we are on the same page. So what specific acts do you feel are sexual assault? Remember, as well, that there is context we can now put that picture to and we know for a fact that Tweeden didn't just "misremember" but openly lied about several aspects of her claims.

We also know, from the article, that Franken seemed to be mindless of his behavior and when he was told by aides, or someone on his staff, to stop doing something, he did.

You're right, sexual assault is bad. So which accusations do you find credible? He also repeatedly broke down crying in the interview saying that he was sorry he hurt people. He reached out personally to those affected and apologized sincerely. This isn't partisan. By all intents and purposes he appears to be a good man that misjudged his behavior. He had multiple women that did the same exact stunt without even a second thought. The ******* accuser did it multiple times after her apparent incident.

Pterodactyl 23rd July 2019 07:48 AM

Grabbing multiple women’s asses = “misjudged his behavior”

What kind of person would “misjudge” that such could be considered appropriate?

This is the kind of thing a person learns when they’re 4 or 5 years old.

plague311 23rd July 2019 07:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pterodactyl (Post 12763407)
Grabbing multiple women’s asses = “misjudged his behavior”

What kind of person would “misjudge” that such could be considered appropriate?

This is the kind of thing a person learns when they’re 4 or 5 years old.

Now just show he "grabbed multiple women's asses" and we're good to go. Had you read the article, there was an individual accusation of him "grabbing her ass". Hell, one accuser simply said she had put on some weight, and when they took a picture his hand on her felt uncomfortable.

Quote:

Franken, she said, had squeezed her waist in a creepy way for several seconds. “It wasn’t violent rape,” she acknowledged. “But it was, like, ‘Ick!’ ” She told the press that, at the time, she had put on weight, and felt uneasy about her body.
Oh no, a creepy waist squeeze during a picture?

ETA: As for the "ass squeeze":

Quote:

Only two incidents were alleged to have happened after Franken was elected to the Senate. A woman named Lindsay Menz told CNN that, at the Minnesota State Fair in 2010, her husband had taken a photograph of her with Franken, and that Franken had grabbed her bottom while posing. She said that the episode had lasted three to four seconds, and that Franken’s hand had been “wrapped tightly around my butt cheek.” (Menz didn’t respond to requests for an interview.)
I have no reason to think she was lying, but it seems odd that he was able to grope her ass in front of a camera being held by her husband, facing dead on without anyone at all noticing besides her. It also seems at odds with statements that were made about Franken.

theprestige 23rd July 2019 08:01 AM

Apparently -
- if a man doesn't notice you've put on some weight; and
- doesn't rightly infer from this that you're feeling uncomfortable about your body; and
- doesn't rightly infer from this that you're therefore kind of gunshy about otherwise-benign physical contact with other humans you trust and respect; and
- doesn't thus refrain from such benign physical contact as an arm around the waist during a photo op;
Then the man is guilty of sexual assault.

At least she clarified that it wasn't violent rape. I appreciate that, because honestly it's hard to tell sometimes. The difference between violent rape and accidentally prompting someone to fat shame themselves.

applecorped 23rd July 2019 08:03 AM

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...ictureid=12209

plague311 23rd July 2019 08:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12763426)
Apparently -
- if a man doesn't notice you've put on some weight; and
- doesn't rightly infer from this that you're feeling uncomfortable about your body; and
- doesn't rightly infer from this that you're therefore kind of gunshy about otherwise-benign physical contact with other humans you trust and respect; and
- doesn't thus refrain from such benign physical contact as an arm around the waist during a photo op;
Then the man is guilty of sexual assault.

At least she clarified that it wasn't violent rape. I appreciate that, because honestly it's hard to tell sometimes. The difference between violent rape and accidentally prompting someone to fat shame themselves.

That's even implying that he SHOULD have noticed (which I know was part of your point). There isn't anything in the article to indicate they had met before, knew each other, or that this was anything other than the 500 other photo ops he had that night.

plague311 23rd July 2019 08:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by applecorped (Post 12763427)
*snip*

We've all seen it. Did you read the context around the picture that was in the article? Again, no one here is condoning it, and he himself has apologized for it. That being said, not only did Tweeden lie about the timing of this picture, or the fact that it was included in all of the pictures sent out, etc. but also that this exact pose was part of the USO show that they were doing as well. A show that several quoted in the article had said was designed to be sexual. That's what gets laughs.

theprestige 23rd July 2019 08:10 AM

It's hard to imagine the GOP engineering what happened to Franken. Holding the Tweeden thing for an opportune moment I can see. The annals of political wrangling are full of such strategic withholdings.

But Gillibrand's response? Franken's ouster? I think that was all perfect-storm, own-goal type stuff. What started as a weaksauce attempt to distract from Moore was magnified by #metoo and TDS into an opportunity for human sacrifice to purge a great evil. The Dems executing Franken on the altar of social justice was supposed to give them such moral high ground as to force the GOP to do the same to Moore, and eventually build enough momentum to do the same to Trump.

I don't think Hannity or anyone else could possibly have predicted that Senator Gillibrand would do this:
I recently asked Gillibrand why she felt that Franken had to go. She said, “We had eight credible allegations, and they had been corroborated, in real time, by the press corps.” She acknowledged that she hadn’t spoken to any accusers, to assess their credibility, but said, “I had been a leader in this space of sexual harassment and assault, and it was weighing on me.” Franken was “entitled to whichever process he wants,” she said. “But he wasn’t entitled to me carrying his water, and defending him with my silence.” She acknowledged that the accusations against Franken “were different” from the kind of rape or molestation charges made against many other #MeToo targets. “But the women who came forward felt it was sexual harassment,” she said. “So it was.”

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2...urrentPage=all

theprestige 23rd July 2019 08:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by plague311 (Post 12763430)
That's even implying that he SHOULD have noticed (which I know was part of your point). There isn't anything in the article to indicate they had met before, knew each other, or that this was anything other than the 500 other photo ops he had that night.

Heh. When you put it that way, we seem to end up with a social justice catch-22.

If I don't notice you're fat, that puts me on the path to sexual harassment. But I'm pretty sure that if I *do* notice you're fat, that's also gonna be sexual harassment.

plague311 23rd July 2019 08:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12763436)
It's hard to imagine the GOP engineering what happened to Franken. Holding the Tweeden thing for an opportune moment I can see. The annals of political wrangling are full of such strategic withholdings.

The only "engineering" I see is the lies built around the story that have come out since. Tweeden actively went about misconstruing the events in order to have maximum possible impact. Hannity fed that fire, along with other conservative outlets. Including her own company which admitted they did no fact checking behind it at all because "they just didn't have the resources".

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12763436)
But Gillibrand's response? Franken's ouster? I think that was all perfect-storm, own-goal type stuff.

I wouldn't argue too much with that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12763436)
What started as a weaksauce attempt to distract from Moore was magnified by #metoo and TDS into an opportunity for human sacrifice to purge a great evil. The Dems executing Franken on the altar of social justice was supposed to give them such moral high ground as to force the GOP to do the same to Moore, and eventually build enough momentum to do the same to Trump.

So here we have a bit of a disagreement. I'd say the left's blatant stupidity in handling this situation helped them get the Dem elected in Alabama. For a short time the Left was able to say, "We clean our own house, unlike the GOP." I do believe that helped in AL. They also didn't lose much, as stated upthread, a Dem was going to replace Franken either way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12763436)
I don't think Hannity or anyone else could possibly have predicted that Senator Gillibrand would do this:

Nope, it was a happy accident.

Cavemonster 23rd July 2019 08:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by plague311 (Post 12763445)
They also didn't lose much, as stated upthread, a Dem was going to replace Franken either way.

This part I disagree with. I think Franken was damned good at his job, compelling, knowledgeable, reasonable. I think he might have made a stronger Presidential candidate than a few we have. If not now, then 4 or 8 years from now depending on how 2020 goes. And I think the taint of this incident is likely to make him unelectable even to congress again. (I could be wrong, but I don't think "admitted sexual harrasser gets you many democratic votes at this point in history).

He wasn't just an interchangeable letter D..

Cavemonster 23rd July 2019 08:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12763436)

I don't think Hannity or anyone else could possibly have predicted that Senator Gillibrand would do this:

Not that specifically, but Hannity had a win any way democrats could have played it.

If democrats questioned the women's accounts and/or stood by Franken, that gives Hannity and Republicans fuel forever that any time democrats talk about believing victims, it's partisan BS.

If demcrats called for an investigation as Franken wanted, then the accusations get a lot of airtime, a lot of spin, and any possible exhonerration would have been tepid at best.

So as we had it, dems called for his ouster. I'm not sure justice was served, but it may have been the best out of a bunch of politically bad options.

plague311 23rd July 2019 08:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cavemonster (Post 12763453)
This part I disagree with. I think Franken was damned good at his job, compelling, knowledgeable, reasonable. I think he might have made a stronger Presidential candidate than a few we have. If not now, then 4 or 8 years from now depending on how 2020 goes. And I think the taint of this incident is likely to make him unelectable even to congress again. (I could be wrong, but I don't think "admitted sexual harrasser gets you many democratic votes at this point in history).

He wasn't just an interchangeable letter D..

I will agree in that my statement was a little flippant towards Franken. Yes, he was an absolutely amazing Senator that took his job very seriously. He asked hard questions in committees, and worked extremely hard.

That being said, my point was merely that they would still hold that seat.

autumn1971 23rd July 2019 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey (Post 12763157)
I didn't argue that all sexual abuse is the same.

I'm saying all sexual abuse is bad. That a worse instance of a bad thing exists does not make another instance of a bad thing good. Murder exists, does that mean a nonfatal beating is acceptable behavior? Cosby's rapes are worse than Kevin Spacey's gropes, does that mean Spacey deserves forgiveness?

It's contemptible how flexible some people's ethics become when politics are involved. Sexual assault is bad. Full stop. A D or R after the perpetrator's name does not make it excusable.

The Newsweek story gives ample evidence that Tweeden was lying about almost everything she said. Top to bottom, her report of the USO event was untrue.

The other women who came forward saying that Franken made them feel uncomfortable during photo-ops have either been disputed by independent observers, or seem to have misinterpreted intentions. And those instances were not even Biden-level making people uncomfortable.

It was the Tweeden statement and photo, which Franken did apologize for, which caused him to be hounded out of the Senate without the ethics investigation that he requested happening.

theprestige 23rd July 2019 08:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cavemonster (Post 12763461)
Not that specifically, but Hannity had a win any way democrats could have played it.

If democrats questioned the women's accounts and/or stood by Franken, that gives Hannity and Republicans fuel forever that any time democrats talk about believing victims, it's partisan BS.

If demcrats called for an investigation as Franken wanted, then the accusations get a lot of airtime, a lot of spin, and any possible exhonerration would have been tepid at best.

So as we had it, dems called for his ouster. I'm not sure justice was served, but it may have been the best out of a bunch of politically bad options.

My argument is that the situation which left the Dems with a bunch of politically bad options was a situation engineered by the Democrats themselves, not by Hannity et al.

Cavemonster 23rd July 2019 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12763478)
My argument is that the situation which left the Dems with a bunch of politically bad options was a situation engineered by the Democrats themselves, not by Hannity et al.

Are you talking about the general situation where the Democrats were hammering Roy Moore and insisting victims be believed and in general supporting #MeToo, or more specific circumstances around the handling of the Franken accusation?

Brainster 23rd July 2019 10:04 AM

I wonder if Northam sticking it out is going to become the new normal. That might not be a bad thing; stop giving the mob moral authority to decide who goes and who stays.

plague311 23rd July 2019 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brainster (Post 12763574)
I wonder if Northam sticking it out is going to become the new normal. That might not be a bad thing; stop giving the mob moral authority to decide who goes and who stays.

That's a fine line. The mob isn't always wrong, and all things said and done, they are elected to represent the desires of their constituents. While I agree they should stop, take a breath, and think about everything first, there can be times where listening to the mob is your best move.

applecorped 23rd July 2019 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by autumn1971 (Post 12763472)
The Newsweek story gives ample evidence that Tweeden was lying about almost everything she said. Top to bottom, her report of the USO event was untrue.

The other women who came forward saying that Franken made them feel uncomfortable during photo-ops have either been disputed by independent observers, or seem to have misinterpreted intentions. And those instances were not even Biden-level making people uncomfortable.

It was the Tweeden statement and photo, which Franken did apologize for, which caused him to be hounded out of the Senate without the ethics investigation that he requested happening.

Yeah don't you hate it when women give false testimony. I'm sure Supreme Court Justices do.


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