the TM and anti-semitism
This may be off topic...but I came across this quote from The Atlantic:
"Yet the new anti-Semitism flourishing in corners of the European Muslim community would be impoverished without the incorporation of European fascist tropes. Dieudonné M’bala M’bala, a comedian of French Cameroonian descent who specializes in Holocaust revisionism and gas-chamber humor, is the inventor of the quenelle, widely understood as an inverted Nazi salute. His followers have taken to photographing themselves making the quenelle in front of synagogues, Holocaust memorials, and sites of past anti-Jewish terrorist attacks. Dieudonné has built an ideological partnership with Alain Soral, the anti-Jewish conspiracy theorist and 9/11 “truther” who was for several years a member of the National Front’s central committee. Soral was photographed not long ago making the quenelle in front of Berlin’s Holocaust memorial." |
JSO, links are always nice:
Is It Time for the Jews to Leave Europe? By Jeffrey Goldberg. The Atlantic, April 2015. Perhaps we should open a dedicated thread about the TM and anti-semitism would be a good idea - if there doesn't exist one already. Haven't read the name Alain Soral, I think. But I have in general never really come across the French branch of the TM. The French Wikipedia article on Alain Soral mentions 9/11 only in passing, the English and German versions not at all. A Google search for "alain soral 11 septembre" delivers some videos and articles, but I am not going to parse the French. |
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We've had a couple of threads that were 5 pages or more on twoof and antisemitism.
Not sure whether we should bump one of them or start a new one. http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=157577 http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=165737 |
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That said, I look forward to a more evidence based estimate and analysis of anti-semitic involvement. |
What is this thread going to be about?
Personally, I have recently come across what feels like a growing number of statements and posts by 9/11 Truthers that blame Israel, Mossad, Americans of Jewish decent. This coincides with me spending more time on Facebook. I can't say for certain that this sort of anti-"Israel" tenor has indeed increased - maybe it's been that way in 9/11-groups on Facebook for a long time and only I didn't see it. I can't say that this has become more prominent on the "old" sites that I used to check out like 911Blogger. I can't tell if anti-semitism is mainstream, or if it's just a loud minority. What I am interested in is getting a feel for how many supporters of groups like AE911T are at least borderline a-s, but that is, in general quite difficult to assess. I believe AE911T would censor blatantly a-s statements. What about leaders, like those on the "911 Consensus Panel"? |
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It depends how you look at it. Unfortunately, a lot of them are ignorant and uneducated, which I'm sure you are aware of. They see all kinds of posts blaming the evils of the world on Jews and they follow, without doing any research, they're led to believe. Anti-semitism was the first thing I noticed when I began researching CTs and 911 CTs three years ago. |
Richard Gage, in a personal message, now associates himself with a holocaust denier. Found this on Kevin Barrett's "No Lies Radio" website:
http://noliesradio.org/archives/97096 Program starts off with Richard Gage right at the beginning: "Hi! This is Richard Gage, AIA, with Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth, and you are listening to No Lies Radio" You never have to dig deep to find anti-semitic dreck. Right now, the current next show is advertised thusly: Quote:
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:i: :dl: :dl: :dl: |
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Israel's proximity to 9/11 is an interesting aspect to the event, though. It is another area where much fragmentary information exists and not many conclusions. From everything I've read and seen, Israel was not operationally involved but they did serve as a lookout as did many other country's security services, which isn't evidence of Israeli operational complicity, but is for the LIHOP hypothesis. |
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2. These facts do get blown out of proportion because they're fueled by racism. |
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2. Anti-semitism is a special and peculiar case of racism. What's your point? |
Do we all agree that opposition to Israeli foreign policy, even thinking Mossad is doing some nasty dark secret things alongside the CIA, is not antiSemitism in and of itself? When I start hearing terms like "the Jews," "the Zionists," etc, I smell an antiSemitic rat. Here in Denver, I have met many people in 911 Truth who are Jewish and rabidly anti-Israeli war policies, and so far only one person in the movement I would consider possibly antiSemitic (only because he picked up on some Holocaust denial ideas and was willing to consider them seriously; he was responsive to my rebuttals however).
I DID get antiSemitic crap in my email box, but haven't seen any of this for about five years. It's there in 911 Truth but it's not endemic, in my experience. And no, I won't dignify Holocaust denial theories with a debate. They make me puke. |
Israel is a theocracy pretending to be a democracy and so it shares some attributes with Iran for example. Israel has done some very aggressive things and appears to be set on annexing all the occupied territories... Why are they occupied in the first place? Obviously the Arabs are no thrilled that Israel moved in and as the USA is Israel's staunchest allies all sorts of muddying of thinking ensues.
Humans are racists. Not all... but many. |
Of course the policies of the Israeli government are as much a legitimate target of scrutiny as any other government's.
However, the big question is: Why bring up Israel in the first place? Why are we - why are truthers! - even dropping the word "Israel" here? The terrorists were not Israelis, and any imagined "inside job" can't be Israel's job since Israel isn't inside. So EITHER you have real, tangible, unambiguous evidence that directly links Israel to the 9/11 attacks. OR you start from a premise that Israel is inside the US government, and/or inside world terrorism, and/or Israel is a usual suspect whenever something really bad happends. Such a premise is anti-semitic. Since I am not aware of any real, tangible, unambiguous evidence that directly links Israel to the 9/11 attacks, I am left with only one choice when the word "Israel" is dropped into a 9/11 debate. |
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The Palestinian statehood issue is being pressed. I wouldn't like to see the U.N. try and force something upon Israel that it does not and will not accept. They do not want to be at the mercy of people just following orders. The other major geopolitical flashpoint is Iran, its threatening rhetoric, its military deals with Russia and its nuclear program. Israel has a problem with all three and is not liking the support it is getting from the U.S. with these matters. The Israeli Prime Minister has repeatedly warned that if Israel has to stand alone to confront its enemies, it will. An unmoored Israel is a dangerous commodity from global order. |
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What is on topic is to ask for harder evidence whether there is an increasing concentration of anti-semitism among Truthers and whether it is statistically significantly different than in the general population, or in any other similar fringe group to the Truthers. |
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I believe the 911 concpiracies speak for themselves as crazy without the added innuendo.... personally... i dont associate specific theories with anti semitism, rather i associate a tendency for crazy theories to make people more likely to believe in it. Thats as far as the connection goes.
People who believe in space weapons taking the towers down are probably more inclined to deny the holocaust than some is say, the CD camp. |
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In another thread spooky24 wrote this message about William Pepper
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It's on-topic in this thread, so I ask again, spooky24 are you going to substantiate your claim that William Pepper said this, retract the claim or confirm, in line with beachnut's interpretation of your post, that you were imagining what William Pepper could have said rather than reporting what he did say? |
I came across this comment on Craig McKee's "Truth and Shadows" blog:
https://truthandshadows.wordpress.co...#comment-36893 This was posted by someone using the handle "rediscover911com", so I am guessing there is a close connection to the websize http://rediscover911.com/ Both the comment and the website are overtly anti-semitic and racist. The comment links to videos, pdfs, pamphlets revolving around a work titled “The Zionist Attack on Western Civilization”. Open links at your own peril. Now I know practically nothing about that commenter or that website, and do not claim they are representative of anything - neither the TM at large nor that McKee blog. I will however be watching how other commenters react. I am not sure, but I think Craig McKee must have approved of that comment manually, as I think that any comment with more than 3 links in it will be queued for moderation. It seems though that this user has already faced some difficulty with moderation: https://truthandshadows.wordpress.co...#comment-35860 |
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Craig McKee, a no plane nut, and an idiot who spreads lies. Typical 911 truth failed logic dolt; looks like a CIT nut on steroids. |
Actual Jew checking in. In my experience, anti-semites don't need a reason for their hatred. Whatever reason they claim to have is just the latest rationalization of their beliefs.
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https://truthandshadows.wordpress.co...#comment-36903 A believer in the authenticity of "The Protocols", really?? How can one be such a shmock and not be an anti-semite? |
http://www.adl.org/anti-semitism/uni.../#.VjyZD7erSJA
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I have a few personal connections to this nexus:
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Rudy Dent, the retired FDNY fireman who arrived late to the WTC on 9/11 as a first responder, and then arrived late to the 9/11 TM in 2013 or 2014, to sing the AE songs of Richard Gage, is an all-out Jew hater, anti-semite and paleo-nazi on Facebook:
https://www.facebook.com/rudy.vulcan He posted, for example, yesterday: Quote:
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Three days ago, this lovely fan poster of his hero Adolf Hitler: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...76965472571346 Four days ago, a very personal rant: Quote:
I wonder if Richard Gage is still in bed with Rudy. Or Luke Rudkowski. |
Among the 2500+ friends of Rudy Dent, I see a number of Truther names I recognize:
Francis Battaglia Christopher Bollyn Helje Kaskel (wife of Christopher Bollyn) Wayne Coste (former Board member of AE911T) Ken Doc(kery) (Owner of the largest 9/11-group on FB) David Fura Gregg Grider (has initiated a relatively recent petition) Dan Hennen Sander Hicks Barbara Honegger Erik Lawyer (the "Firefighters for 9/11 T" guy) Claudio Marty (founder of IamTheFaceOfTruth) Daniel Noel (AE911Truth's team leader for ... something, I forgot) Ken O'Keefe Rebekah Roth Adam Ruff Marv Sannes (an AE911T activist from Portland, Oregon) No doubt there are more, I have only seen a small part of the currently 2549 names. I estimate that about 15-20% of these friends have the "I am the face of 9/11 Truth" banner in their profile picture, that is several hundreds out of the merely a few thousands sporting this banner. Rudy's holocaust-denying, Jew-hating venom apparently sits well with a significant proportion of the more outspoken fringe that is the TM. Fred Leucher is a friend, too... (although I haven't verified it's THE Fred Leuchter). |
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Very disturbing info about this character. Can his friends know about his craziness? If they do that would be very troubling.
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There can be no doubt that Rudy Dent is an anti-Semite. But in order to know if the following is true: Quote:
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Is there guilt by mere association on FB? Dunno.... but it makes for strange bed fellows. |
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