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-   -   Eat meat - heart attack. Go vegan - stroke (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=338717)

cullennz 6th September 2019 11:16 PM

Eat meat - heart attack. Go vegan - stroke
 
I'll go heart attack

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...ds/2219580001/

Venom 6th September 2019 11:26 PM

I'll stick to my chicken livers and lima beans over hamburgers. Thanks!

casebro 7th September 2019 05:13 AM

The study: https://www.bmj.com/content/366/bmj.l4897

Out of 48,000 people, 3,000 had heart attacks, about 6%. Yet in the real population, 30% of us due from heart attacks. I'm coining a phrase for the system of using data mining to exaggerates the conclusions of medical studies- "The rule of small numbers". RSN.

Get back to me with the results that start with "Once 90% had died, we looked at causes of death in the two groups..." I know of only one study that did that. It was by Kaiser of Canada re: BMI. 8,000 deaths showed that any BMI between 17 to 34 is PERFECT. I like that, because deaths are the absolute event. They only studied the people who suffered it. Where as in the OP, 50% of people dropped out. They can't drop out if they are dead.

50% of people dropped out, yet the claimed advantage is ONE death per 10,000 life years? RSN.

TragicMonkey 7th September 2019 06:22 AM

Nutrition requires balance and moderation. Just like almost everything else in life. Why this is a difficult concept for some people to grasp I will never understand.

casebro 7th September 2019 07:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey (Post 12811716)
Nutrition requires balance and moderation. Just like almost everything else in life. Why this is a difficult concept for some people to grasp I will never understand.

NEVER eating meat makes as much sense as NEVER eating leafy greens. Either absolute is craziness.

mgidm86 7th September 2019 01:38 PM

My Dad said something to me once and I'll make it non-sexist: "Marry a person who can cook because sex can get old but good food never does"

Food is one of life's greatest pleasures. Vegetarianism is one thing, but veganism is a religious or cult-like behavior, in my opinion.

And like religion, my vegan friends can ignore the rules when they choose.

My friend's wife won't drink wine if egg yolks are used in the process. I asked about all the weed they smoke. "You know they aren't using vegan nutrients in the plants. There's fish and other stuff in there. Guess you'd better find yourselves some vegan weed somewhere" (there is vegan weed...somewhere).

"Oh...well....but that's okay...ummm...." no real reason given. Okay so you won't wear leather but damned if someone's gonna take your smoke away!

:rolleyes:

ETA: There are vegan athletes but my friends are both sickly looking. Toothpicks with bad color to their skin. Could be all the booze and weed though :D Then again, I'M not sickly and toothpicky.

8enotto 7th September 2019 03:09 PM

It's a simple concept. What I do is right because the so called experts get it wrong.

Twiggy pale vegans talking the glory of saving critters from cruelty as they starve themselves to death, yet Ted Nuget looks healthy as he spits out a bullet from his baby seal steak.

The middle of the road nutrition experts get about the closest to a correct answer as any. Some plants, some protein and watch the salt and sugar.

Venom 7th September 2019 03:11 PM

Heh.

I'm no more critical of vegans than I am with religious people. There will be disagreements among their group about what constitutes good adherence to their guidelines or what those very guidelines should be; just the nature of the beast. Until there is some Pope of veganism calling the shots, I'll avoid nitpicking them to death about it.

mumblethrax 7th September 2019 04:18 PM

Quote:

"In terms of the absolute number of cases," she said, "the higher risk of stroke in vegetarians is small compared to lower risk of coronary heart disease."

This means that in every 1,000 non-meat eaters – compared to their meat-eating equivalents – there are 10 fewer cases of heart disease and only 3 more cases of stroke.
People on this forum buttress their irrational choices by misrepresenting science, but vegans are, y'know, religious about it.

casebro 8th September 2019 05:20 AM

My sister the Vegan makes all kinds of giant health claims. And points me to "The ChIna Study"*. I figure if those claims were half right, we wouldn't need no study to see the advantages. A couple less deaths per 10,000 person/years is NOT what they claim.

* Don't go ggogling "The China Study" without adding "debunk". Was it Harriet? Mary Enig? that shreds the study.

varwoche 9th September 2019 06:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by casebro (Post 12811752)
NEVER eating meat makes as much sense as NEVER eating leafy greens. Either absolute is craziness.

Never eating meat = vegetarian. Just to be clear.

Your statement is comically counter-factual. Bordering on sheer madness.

varwoche 9th September 2019 06:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mgidm86 (Post 12812073)
And like religion, my vegan friends can ignore the rules when they choose.

My friend's wife won't drink wine if egg yolks are used in the process. I asked about all the weed they smoke. "You know they aren't using vegan nutrients in the plants. There's fish and other stuff in there. Guess you'd better find yourselves some vegan weed somewhere" (there is vegan weed...somewhere).

All this anecdote tells me is that you're so eager to dish on vegans that facts don't matter.

The fertilizer used to grow vegetables doesn't render the vegetables non vegan. So no, your friend isn't ignoring "the rules". It would be exceedingly difficult to so much as find vegetables at the grocery store that were grown with no animal-based fertilizer. You'd pretty much need to grown them yourself.

Belz... 9th September 2019 08:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey (Post 12811716)
Nutrition requires balance and moderation.

I eat a very varied diet; human souls from all walks of life.

Guybrush Threepwood 9th September 2019 08:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by varwoche (Post 12813577)
All this anecdote tells me is that you're so eager to dish on vegans that facts don't matter.

The fertilizer used to grow vegetables doesn't render the vegetables non vegan. So no, your friend isn't ignoring "the rules". It would be exceedingly difficult to so much as find vegetables at the grocery store that were grown with no animal-based fertilizer. You'd pretty much need to grown them yourself.

I don't think egg yolks are used in wine making either.

Egg whites, on the other hand....

Apart from that I think he pretty much demolished the vegans there. :rolleyes:

casebro 9th September 2019 08:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by varwoche (Post 12813562)
Never eating meat = vegetarian. Just to be clear.

Your statement is comically counter-factual. Bordering on sheer madness.

Huh. wut? If the point of veganism is health, a scant amount of meat would not be a problem. But they act like meat is Plutonium: one molecule will kill you as well as put a blot on your everlasting soul.

They all know that they need to balance their amino acids, why avoid using meat aminos to do it?

Nah, they are religious zealots to the point of insanity, like other obsessive compulsives.

I Am The Scum 9th September 2019 08:47 AM

Didn't take us long to completely ignore the OP and get down to the usual bickering.

mumblethrax 9th September 2019 08:51 AM

You're doing great, casebro. Don't let these soy boys get you down.

TragicMonkey 9th September 2019 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Belz... (Post 12813677)
I eat a very varied diet; human souls from all walks of life.

Just human? Angel souls are packed with flavor, and also potassium. Consuming an angel's soul is the equivalent of eating seven bananas.

Ziggurat 9th September 2019 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey (Post 12813725)
Just human? Angel souls are packed with flavor, and also potassium. Consuming an angel's soul is the equivalent of eating seven bananas.

Is the isotope balance the same? I would expect angels to have more 40K proportionately than bananas, seeing as how they probably get more cosmic radiation hanging out in heaven.

TragicMonkey 9th September 2019 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ziggurat (Post 12813800)
Is the isotope balance the same? I would expect angels to have more 40K proportionately than bananas, seeing as how they probably get more cosmic radiation hanging out in heaven.

It's even more the same as than bananas, because angels are actually 85% banana! The rest is water, xantham gum, and added coloration agents. They are very high in calories, though, from the benevolent love of an omnipresent deity. That **** is fattening!

casebro 9th September 2019 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mumblethrax (Post 12813708)
You're doing great, casebro. Don't let these soy boys get you down.

Supporters are usually in the silent MAJORITY. I'm way ahead in the game.

casebro 9th September 2019 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by casebro (Post 12811752)
NEVER eating meat makes as much sense as NEVER eating leafy greens. Either absolute is craziness.

Quote:

Originally Posted by varwoche (Post 12813562)
Never eating meat = vegetarian. Just to be clear.

Your statement is comically counter-factual. Bordering on sheer madness.

Just to improve your reading comprehension, I said " makes as much sense as" , NOT " includes".

varwoche 9th September 2019 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by casebro (Post 12813922)
Just to improve your reading comprehension, I said " makes as much sense as" , NOT " includes".

I comprehended.

You claimed it's crazy to be a vegetarian. According to experts, it's not at all crazy. Do you care to rethink/retract?

Ziggurat 9th September 2019 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by varwoche (Post 12813927)
According to experts, it's not at all crazy.

Oh, goodie. Now we can debate whether or not it's crazy to disagree with the experts, whoever they are.

casebro 9th September 2019 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by varwoche (Post 12813927)
I comprehended.

You claimed it's crazy to be a vegetarian. According to experts, it's not at all crazy. Do you care to rethink/retract?

I said the OCD-ness, the zealotry, is crazy. No retraction.

"I want to eat a lot of veggies" is "not at all crazy". Acting as if a glass of the wine made with one egg white per barrel is as potent a poison as Plutonium is, is crazy.

I guess if there were enough subjects for a HUGE study you could post the results as two overlapping bell curves. The left end beyond where the curves intersect would show how much meat I can eat without raising my chances of dying prematurely. Right hand end, how much veggies is required to not die early? And the WHOLE MIDDLE MAJORITY would show how many people it just doesn't matter.

Hmmmm, is the raw data available from the OP? IIRC, 1600 deaths? Nearly evenly split I bet. I wonder how the average life spans would compare? And why they didn't tell us that? Why only heart attacks and strokes, no mention of cancers, lungs, intestines? My guess: They had to data mine really deep to find any fields with a "significant"* difference. All other causes are the same rate.

*"significant" means "we think it is repeatable in other studies". I does NOT mean "an important difference". 6 lower deaths in 10,000 patient years? My take away? "If we all turned vegetarian, those of us who die of heart attacks would live 4.4 days longer".

varwoche 9th September 2019 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by casebro (Post 12814036)
I said the OCD-ness, the zealotry, is crazy. No retraction.

Here's what you posted actually:
Quote:

NEVER eating meat makes as much sense as NEVER eating leafy greens. Either absolute is craziness.
Clearly, you said that never eating meet is crazy. Now you're changing your tune. Whatever. I concur that zealots exist.

casebro 9th September 2019 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by varwoche (Post 12814115)
Here's what you posted actually:
Clearly, you said that never eating meet is crazy. Now you're changing your tune. Whatever. I concur that zealots exist.

I didn't back off a bit, I still say "never eating meat is crazy".

jt512 9th September 2019 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by casebro (Post 12812496)
My sister the Vegan makes all kinds of giant health claims. And points me to "The ChIna Study"*. I figure if those claims were half right, we wouldn't need no study to see the advantages. A couple less deaths per 10,000 person/years is NOT what they claim.

* Don't go ggogling "The China Study" without adding "debunk". Was it Harriet? Mary Enig? that shreds the study.

Lot's of people who don't understand statistics have spent 1000s of words to debunk the China Health Study. A statistician would debunk it in two words: ecologic fallacy.

That said, if Enig debunked it, that would be a point in its favor.

RecoveringYuppy 9th September 2019 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by casebro (Post 12812496)
My sister the Vegan makes all kinds of giant health claims. And points me to "The ChIna Study"*. I figure if those claims were half right, we wouldn't need no study to see the advantages. A couple less deaths per 10,000 person/years is NOT what they claim.


The China Study didn't advocate veganism. And while it did conclude that a vegetarian diet was the most healthy it also pointed out that being strict about it was not necessary.

eerok 9th September 2019 04:46 PM

My understanding is that humans grew their brains due to the nutrient-density of animal protein. Also the advent of agriculture led to shorter and less healthy people who were prone to rotting teeth and disease (cf the ancient Egyptians). Also the human body is obviously not adapted to veganism, because it requires that you take supplements to make it work over time. Otherwise you do not thrive.

I don't have an argument with vegetarians, who don't eat meat, but who eat eggs, cheese, etc. I think veganism is an abomination, though.

Skeptical Greg 9th September 2019 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eerok (Post 12814238)
My understanding is that humans grew their brains due to the nutrient-density of animal protein. Also the advent of agriculture led to shorter and less healthy people who were prone to rotting teeth and disease (cf the ancient Egyptians). Also the human body is obviously not adapted to veganism, because it requires that you take supplements to make it work over time. Otherwise you do not thrive.

Don't forget the fat... Fat is good..

And never forget, there is no such thing as an essential carbohydrate...

angrysoba 9th September 2019 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eerok (Post 12814238)
My understanding is that humans grew their brains due to the nutrient-density of animal protein.

So what? If you are arguing that humans today must eat animal protein because human ancestors did, then this is literally the genetic fallacy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by eerok (Post 12814238)
Also the advent of agriculture led to shorter and less healthy people who were prone to rotting teeth and disease (cf the ancient Egyptians).

So what? This again seems irrelevant.

Quote:

Originally Posted by eerok (Post 12814238)
Also the human body is obviously not adapted to veganism, because it requires that you take supplements to make it work over time. Otherwise you do not thrive.

Could you provide evidence that supplements are necessary for veganism?

Quote:

Originally Posted by eerok (Post 12814238)
I don't have an argument with vegetarians, who don't eat meat, but who eat eggs, cheese, etc. I think veganism is an abomination, though.

I think two spaces after the full stop (period) is an abomination. But my preferences in that regard are no more relevant than what you think is an abomination.

varwoche 9th September 2019 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by casebro (Post 12814133)
I didn't back off a bit, I still say "never eating meat is crazy".

Your posts are an enigma wrapped in a mystery. Here are some expert sources who make it clear that a vegetarian diet isn't crazy at all, contrary to your anti-science stance:
Quote:

Originally Posted by American Society for Nutrition
Eating a vegetarian or primarily plant-based diet is associated with a variety of health benefits ... Mounting evidence suggests a plant-based diet lowers heart disease risk

Quote:

Originally Posted by NIH
Strong body of evidence favoring plant-based diets

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mayo Clinic
A well-planned vegetarian diet is a healthy way to meet your nutritional needs


RecoveringYuppy 9th September 2019 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eerok (Post 12814238)
My understanding is that humans grew their brains due to the nutrient-density of animal protein.


That may be a plausible idea but I doubt you can find much consensus or convincing evidence for that idea.

I Am The Scum 9th September 2019 05:48 PM

Also, it would be pretty foolish to ignore the difference in meat availability between the caveman and the modern man.

angrysoba 9th September 2019 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Am The Scum (Post 12814307)
Also, it would be pretty foolish to ignore the difference in meat availability between the caveman and the modern man.

Not just meat availability (although I bet few people would find caveman cuisine palatable), but food availability.

Every time this subject comes up, there is an attempt to point to evolution as though it is the ultimate arbiter of what humans ought to eat today.

It is essentially pseudoscience.

Venom 9th September 2019 05:59 PM

The way to avoid both.


blutoski 9th September 2019 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by casebro (Post 12811691)
The study: https://www.bmj.com/content/366/bmj.l4897

Out of 48,000 people, 3,000 had heart attacks, about 6%. Yet in the real population, 30% of us due from heart attacks. I'm coining a phrase for the system of using data mining to exaggerates the conclusions of medical studies- "The rule of small numbers". RSN.

It took me awhile to figure out what was going on, and while it's not data mining, it's not what omnivores want to hear either.

Basically, they didn't feel it was fair comparing all vegans with all omnivores, since they suspected vegans ALSO were generally more health conscious in other ways, such as eating more vegetables (not just eliminating meat) and possibly other dimensions such as keeping their body fat percentage and BMI low through portion control and/or exercise.

So, background is that vegans overall have considerably less stroke and CVD incidence, but the authors wanted to isolate whether this had anything to do with eating meat or not.

In order to do that, they had to match a healthier than average slice of omnivores with your average vegan, which they did by selection criteria: the omnivores needed to match BMI, body fat percentage, and activity levels of average vegans. The principle was to eliminate these potential confounders.

Result was a statistically significant but medically irrelevant slightly higher stroke incidence in the vegan cohort than in the 'super omnivore' cohort.

What was not tested was whether other medical conditions differ between the cohorts. What was not tested was whether being an omnivore contributed to the general lower health of average omnivores vs vegans. This last one is a problem, because it's incorrect statistically to control for contributing/linked factors. They're not confounders.

But this explains why the overall incidence of CVD was weirdly low - this is not a representative sample of omnivores. It's a super-healthy selection, who otherwise resemble vegans in as many ways as the authors could think of, other than including meat in their diet.

blutoski 9th September 2019 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by casebro (Post 12814036)
I said the OCD-ness, the zealotry, is crazy. No retraction.

"I want to eat a lot of veggies" is "not at all crazy". Acting as if a glass of the wine made with one egg white per barrel is as potent a poison as Plutonium is, is crazy.

Well, maybe not crazy, but possibly very morally rigid. It's probable that she's an ethical vegan rather than health vegan. The principle is contamination, like wanting to stay Kosher or not eating dog or cheese made from human breastmilk.

Just an analogy, if somebody gets murdered in a vat of wine, it's probably going to be unsellable even if there's 'only a little bit' (egg sized piece) of the corpse's battered brains blended into it and the ethanol makes it antiseptic. It's the principle of the thing. I don't think the customers refusing to drink it would be 'crazy'.

TragicMonkey 9th September 2019 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blutoski (Post 12814364)
Just an analogy, if somebody gets murdered in a vat of wine, it's probably going to be unsellable even if there's 'only a little bit' (egg sized piece) of the corpse's battered brains blended into it and the ethanol makes it antiseptic. It's the principle of the thing. I don't think the customers refusing to drink it would be 'crazy'.

That's what wine snobs mean when they talk about "the wine's body".


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