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-   -   Continuation House Impeachment Inquiry - part 2 (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=340539)

Belz... 27th November 2019 03:26 AM

House Impeachment Inquiry - part 2
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Norman Alexander (Post 12905626)
I have read somewhere that the Sergeant at Arms of the United States Senate is responsible for enforcing the attendance of those summoned by the Senate.

Again: what are they going to do? Send in the S-A-A to arrest Trump? He'll have the Secret Service throw him out.

That's the 'weakness' of the rule of law: it seems that is requires liberal amounts of forebearance, and if you have people in government who just don't play by the rules of the game, then you can't do anything about them.

Not to say that the alternative is any better.

Mod InfoThread continued from here. You may quote or reply to any of the posts from that thread here.
Posted By:zooterkin

The Don 27th November 2019 04:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mgidm86 (Post 12905686)
Because most people don't read much news, and they sure as heck don't go to political forums.

IMO that's true the world over. Most people are too busy living their lives to invest a lot of time becoming familiar with all of the major issues of the day. Instead they rely on soundbites and/or adopt positions from trusted sources like friends, relatives and celebrities that they respect.

Nuance has very little place in that scenario and a simple, but wrong, message is more easily consumed than a complicated, nuanced one. People are too busy holding down jobs, raising families and making ends meet and most choose to spend their leisure time doing something other than reading manifestos, gathering opinions from a wide range of sources and engaging in informed debate.

Squeegee Beckenheim 27th November 2019 07:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Don (Post 12905779)
IMO that's true the world over. Most people are too busy living their lives to invest a lot of time becoming familiar with all of the major issues of the day. Instead they rely on soundbites and/or adopt positions from trusted sources like friends, relatives and celebrities that they respect.

Nuance has very little place in that scenario and a simple, but wrong, message is more easily consumed than a complicated, nuanced one. People are too busy holding down jobs, raising families and making ends meet and most choose to spend their leisure time doing something other than reading manifestos, gathering opinions from a wide range of sources and engaging in informed debate.

This is something of a derail into the UK General Election, so I'm going to spoiler it:

I think this is the biggest mistake Jeremy Corbyn is making at the moment. His Brexit position actually makes a lot of sense - negotiate a fair deal with the EU, and then hold a second referendum where the public can vote once they've been informed of all the good and bad points of what it is they're actually voting for.

The problem is that this is a fairly nuanced take, and one that's easy to paint as being "wishy-washy". The Tory position of "let's get Brexit done" and the Lib Dem position of "we are going to revoke Article 50 and remain in the EU" are much stronger policies, even if they're less workable and less sensible than Corbyn's position.


A quick, easily digestible slogan is always going to win out over "this is a complicated situation, which requires a nuanced solution" simply because, as you say, everybody has got enough going on in their own lives that it's rare for people to be informed, let alone fully informed, about what is actually going on.

CapelDodger 27th November 2019 07:59 AM

Further to what's been said about the Republicans not needing Ukrainian investigations to smear Biden, Lickspittle Lindsey Graham has requested documents and transcripts related to Biden and the sacking of corrupt Ukrainian prosecutor Shokin, so they're going with the smear anyway.

On a slightly different tack, Sen John Kennedy went on Fox to push the Kremlin's "it wasn't Russia it was Ukraine" CT then back-tracked on CNN where it wouldn't be seen by Fox viewers. Needless to say, Fox won't report said back-tracking, so job done. Trump is, of course, a Fox viewer, so he'll be thinking kindly of Kennedy.

Is there a Republican left who isn't a complete POS?

phiwum 27th November 2019 08:07 AM

delete, think I misunderstood the post.

Belz... 27th November 2019 08:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim (Post 12905989)
A quick, easily digestible slogan is always going to win out over "this is a complicated situation, which requires a nuanced solution" simply because, as you say, everybody has got enough going on in their own lives that it's rare for people to be informed, let alone fully informed, about what is actually going on.

And yet they could be informed if they wanted to. No excuse.

BobTheCoward 27th November 2019 08:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Belz... (Post 12906010)
And yet they could be informed if they wanted to. No excuse.

The obvious excuse is people on political forums are just overinflating the importance of the subject they care about. It isn't more important what other people have going on in their lives.

Trebuchet 27th November 2019 08:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CapelDodger (Post 12905993)

Is there a Republican left who isn't a complete POS?

If so, they are hiding it well.

Always remember, Trump isn't the cause of the complete corruption of what used to be my party. He's the result. It goes back at least 50 years.

Babbylonian 27th November 2019 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Belz... (Post 12905748)
Again: what are they going to do? Send in the S-A-A to arrest Trump? He'll have the Secret Service throw him out.

That's the 'weakness' of the rule of law: it seems that is requires liberal amounts of forebearance, and if you have people in government who just don't play by the rules of the game, then you can't do anything about them.

Not to say that the alternative is any better.

Mod InfoThread continued from here. You may quote or reply to any of the posts from that thread here.
Posted By:zooterkin

Secret Service agents take the same oath as any other federal law enforcement officer, not substantially different from the one taken by presidents. In other words, a Secret Service agent who prevents the legal arrest of someone under their protection would be violating their oath and the law. An agent responsible for the protection of the president would likely insist on accompanying their charge, but that should be the limit of their objections.

The idea that the Secret Service are responsible to the president personally is incorrect and I expect very few would claim any significant loyalty to the occupant of the office over their duty to the law.

Norman Alexander 27th November 2019 12:47 PM

The Secret Service are there to protect the president from illegal harm. Being detained legally by the SAA ofthe Senate is not illegal, by definition.

Segnosaur 27th November 2019 02:26 PM

And then there's this:

https://www.oregonlive.com/politics/...ral-women.html
Gordon Sondland, the Portland businessman in the middle of the Trump impeachment, committed sexual misconduct against three women. The women allege that Sondland retaliated professionally against the women after they rejected his advances. Sondland said the allegations are untrue.

Not really sure what effect this will have on the impeachment inquire. After all, Sondland was at one time "Trump's guy", but he ended up providing some rather damaging testimony against Stubby McBonespurs. Now we know that that testimony was coming from a possible serial sexual harasser.

Norman Alexander 27th November 2019 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Segnosaur (Post 12906588)
And then there's this:

https://www.oregonlive.com/politics/...ral-women.html
Gordon Sondland, the Portland businessman in the middle of the Trump impeachment, committed sexual misconduct against three women. The women allege that Sondland retaliated professionally against the women after they rejected his advances. Sondland said the allegations are untrue.

Not really sure what effect this will have on the impeachment inquire. After all, Sondland was at one time "Trump's guy", but he ended up providing some rather damaging testimony against Stubby McBonespurs. Now we know that that testimony was coming from a possible serial sexual harasser.

Because they are trying to play the "smear them in **** so they smell bad" card. Effectively, if Gordo is "a serial predator" then obviously all his damning evidence before the Impeachment Inquiry is "suspect" and "not to be believed", etc.

Darat 27th November 2019 03:42 PM

I see Trump has started to distance himself from this Julieanna bloke, he may have been in the same room once as Trump, he was probably fetching the covfefe.

Cabbage 27th November 2019 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ziggurat (Post 12900205)
It's not working.
November National Poll: Support for Impeachment Declines

Evidently this post was a premature ejaculation. I guess desperation can cause you to cherry pick that one poll that tells you what you want to hear. LOL!

Polls since then:

Support +7
Support +12
Support +5

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/ep...rump-6956.html

Cabbage 27th November 2019 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12904002)
Seriously? What's the point of the impeachment proceedings, then? To make GOP senators feel at least a little bit of shame when they vote to keep President Trump in office?

Some of us still believe in doing our job, even if some of our co-workers are incompetent/corrupt sleazeballs. Of course, your mileage may vary: I'm quite aware that simply Doing the Right Thing is a foreign concept to the modern Republican.

theprestige 27th November 2019 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cabbage (Post 12906737)
Some of us still believe in doing our job, even if some of our co-workers are incompetent/corrupt sleazeballs. Of course, your mileage may vary: I'm quite aware that simply Doing the Right Thing is a foreign concept to the modern Republican.

That's so sweet. But what's the point of the impeachment inquiry? Is it just jobsworths doing their jobs?

Cabbage 27th November 2019 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue (Post 12902636)
Trump not winning in 2020 is literally the only way we can get rid of him that doesn't require a series of miracles so unlikely we might as well be invoking God. And impeaching him sends those odds into the basement.

Yeah, because having their representatives sit on their ass and do absolutely nothing to keep Trump in check is sure to inspire the constituents to come out in droves to vote Blue in 2020. :rolleyes:

Cabbage 27th November 2019 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12906742)
That's so sweet. But what's the point of the impeachment inquiry? Is it just jobsworths doing their jobs?

To keep the president in check, as the Constitution intended. If the Senate can't (or refuse to) do their job, that does not imply the House should throw their hands up and abdicate their responsibility, too.

Is this a foreign concept for you?

acbytesla 27th November 2019 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12906742)
That's so sweet. But what's the point of the impeachment inquiry? Is it just jobsworths doing their jobs?

Because justice, checks and balances as well as the rule of law are important and must be stood up for.

<snip>

Do you really want a President is accountable to no one?


Edited by Loss Leader:  Edited for Rules 0/12.

Cabbage 27th November 2019 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12906742)
That's so sweet. But what's the point of the impeachment inquiry? Is it just jobsworths doing their jobs?


Oh, and that's simply an adorable attempt to mock those of us who still follow the Constitution. "Awww...they still believe in Constitutional checks and balances. That's so sweet!"

:rolleyes:

smartcooky 27th November 2019 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cabbage (Post 12906767)
Oh, and that's simply an adorable attempt to mock those of us who still follow the Constitution. "Awww...they still believe in Constitutional checks and balances. That's so sweet!"

:rolleyes:

..because when you don't have some form of checks and balances on a national leader, there is a very high risk that you end up with North Korea, Nazi Germany, the Soviet Union, Russia, Chile under Pinochet, Argentina under Videla and later, Viola and Galtieri.

Skeptic Ginger 27th November 2019 06:43 PM

Curious how many chickens that haven't hatched are being counted here by both the right and the left.

Anyone who thinks this impeachment hearing is over isn't paying attention.

Jonathan Turley was on a news talk show this morning repeating the GOP lie that Trump's being impeached on the basis of one letter. It's Lindsay Graham's oft repeated BS as if time stopped a month ago.

Meanwhile all sorts of interesting new evidence is emerging like Rudy trying to get the CEO of Ukraine's large natural gas company dismissed because it opened up a chance for Trump and Giuliani to make some dishonest money. People involved are all turning on Trump and Rudy.

The Judiciary Committee hearing doesn't start for a week. Trump bitched that the Intelligence Committee hearing was bad because it was held behind closed doors, then bitched it was bad because it wasn't confidential behind closed doors. I wonder what Trump will say now that Trump's attorneys are invited to the next round? Think Giuliani is going to be there while refusing to testify?

That should be interesting.

Meanwhile McGahn will likely have to testify. Bolton is going to see Trump pushing Rudy under the bus. Do you think he can read that wall writing about self preservation?

One of the two partners of Giuliani not only is testifying, Lordy he has tapes and supposedly Trump is on them.

Shift over to perjury in his Mueller Report testimony, tax and election fraud brewing over there in the NY Fed District Court. And what else will be revealed in Trump's taxes? The Democrats have a good case for releasing those tax forms and it's too late for Trump to change out any NY prosecutors involved, whether they serve at his pleasure or not.

Barr, Trump, and many in the public may believe the Mueller Report was sufficiently dead and buried, but like Trump's typical fantasies, not so fast.

Trebuchet 27th November 2019 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darat (Post 12906690)
I see Trump has started to distance himself from this Julieanna bloke, he may have been in the same room once as Trump, he was probably fetching the covfefe.

I suggest investing in Motor Coach Industries. Guess what they make.

Quote:

Originally Posted by acbytesla (Post 12906753)
Because justice, checks and balances as well as the rule of law are important and must be stood up for.

<snip>

Do you really want a President is accountable to no one?


Edited by Loss Leader:  Edited for Rules 0/12.

Only the ones that aren't Democrats or *******.

Stacyhs 27th November 2019 06:44 PM

But, but....Trump is the Chosen One! What is wrong with you Constitution supporters?
;)

acbytesla 27th November 2019 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trebuchet (Post 12906799)
I suggest investing in Motor Coach Industries. Guess what they make.



Only the ones that aren't Democrats or *******.

It's dangerous even if they are in your own party. I don't agree with every Democratic position and my guess is Prestige doesn't universally agree with every Republican position.

What is to stop a President reversing course against your party's principles after he is a King/Dicktator?

I hate to pull a Godwin here but Hitler dramatically changed his stances on lots of issues. Once a leader becomes unaccountable everyone is screwed except the special few.

mgidm86 27th November 2019 08:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Belz... (Post 12906010)
And yet they could be informed if they wanted to. No excuse.


Maybe many do try to stay informed. Everyone thinks their news is the correct news, unbiased and all that. It's a minefield of bullcrap.

People may actually believe CNN is still an impartial news source, or FOX. I can't think of a single source that I completely trust. Not even close.

I come here often to hear the "rest of the story" or at least get a few different takes on it. I learn more here than I can at any news site. Still have to sort through the bull ;)

Which of us has the real news and the correct opinions? None of us.

acbytesla 27th November 2019 09:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mgidm86 (Post 12906871)
Maybe many do try to stay informed. Everyone thinks their news is the correct news, unbiased and all that. It's a minefield of bullcrap.

People may actually believe CNN is still an impartial news source, or FOX. I can't think of a single source that I completely trust. Not even close.

I come here often to hear the "rest of the story" or at least get a few different takes on it. I learn more here than I can at any news site. Still have to sort through the bull ;)

Which of us has the real news and the correct opinions? None of us.

Most mainstream news is factual. Even the actual news reported on FAUX News not the opinion bs like Fox and Friends.

PhantomWolf 27th November 2019 10:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12906742)
That's so sweet. But what's the point of the impeachment inquiry? Is it just jobsworths doing their jobs?

Ask this guy....

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

Skeptic Ginger 27th November 2019 10:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf (Post 12906914)
Ask this guy....

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

Touché.

They're all such ******* hypocrites.


I'll wait 'til TP catches up with my post.

smartcooky 28th November 2019 01:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf (Post 12906914)
Ask this guy....

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

Hypocrisy Gold!!

smartcooky 28th November 2019 01:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mgidm86 (Post 12906871)
Maybe many do try to stay informed. Everyone thinks their news is the correct news, unbiased and all that. It's a minefield of bullcrap.

People may actually believe CNN is still an impartial news source, or FOX. I can't think of a single source that I completely trust. Not even close.

I come here often to hear the "rest of the story" or at least get a few different takes on it. I learn more here than I can at any news site. Still have to sort through the bull ;)

Which of us has the real news and the correct opinions? None of us.


Here's the thing. While most news outlets have a bias one way or the other, I trust those who rigorously fact check their stories and generally rely on multiple sources (or when single sourcing, that source is a known reliable one with a good reputation) before they go to air with a story. This is the reason why I tend to rely on NBC, CBS, CNN and MSNBC as my primary video news sources, and WaPo and NYT as primary "print" media sources for US political news.

But even more than that, I trust sources that will retract a story when they get it wrong or report falsely. The above mentioned outlets do this every time they get it wrong (which isn't actually very often. - its rare that a false story gets past their tough fact-checking standards).

However, this is entirely not the case with Faux News. They clearly do not have rigorous fact checking because they regularly air incorrect stories or false reporting, and then when the are outed for it, rather than issue a retraction, they gloss over the errors with an attitude of "Oh well, moving right along". The only reason I ever tune in to Faux News is to quickly catch up on what lies they are telling their viewers this week.

I have yet to find a right-bias news source as diligent in their reporting as the others I mentioned earlier.

Squeegee Beckenheim 28th November 2019 02:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by acbytesla (Post 12906891)
Most mainstream news is factual.

"Factual" is not the same thing as "impartial" or "unbiased". Even just choosing what to report is an exercise in bias.

Belz... 28th November 2019 03:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Babbylonian (Post 12906449)
Secret Service agents take the same oath as any other federal law enforcement officer, not substantially different from the one taken by presidents. In other words, a Secret Service agent who prevents the legal arrest of someone under their protection would be violating their oath and the law. An agent responsible for the protection of the president would likely insist on accompanying their charge, but that should be the limit of their objections.

The idea that the Secret Service are responsible to the president personally is incorrect and I expect very few would claim any significant loyalty to the occupant of the office over their duty to the law.

Sure, sure. In theory. But what about actual reality?

Craig4 28th November 2019 03:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Segnosaur (Post 12906588)
And then there's this:

https://www.oregonlive.com/politics/...ral-women.html
Gordon Sondland, the Portland businessman in the middle of the Trump impeachment, committed sexual misconduct against three women. The women allege that Sondland retaliated professionally against the women after they rejected his advances. Sondland said the allegations are untrue.

Not really sure what effect this will have on the impeachment inquire. After all, Sondland was at one time "Trump's guy", but he ended up providing some rather damaging testimony against Stubby McBonespurs. Now we know that that testimony was coming from a possible serial sexual harasser.

I just assumed he'd done something like that. It's a requirement to work for Trump that you engage in sexual misconduct.

phiwum 28th November 2019 06:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smartcooky (Post 12906991)
Here's the thing. While most news outlets have a bias one way or the other, I trust those who rigorously fact check their stories and generally rely on multiple sources (or when single sourcing, that source is a known reliable one with a good reputation) before they go to air with a story. This is the reason why I tend to rely on NBC, CBS, CNN and MSNBC as my primary video news sources, and WaPo and NYT as primary "print" media sources for US political news.

But even more than that, I trust sources that will retract a story when they get it wrong or report falsely. The above mentioned outlets do this every time they get it wrong (which isn't actually very often. - its rare that a false story gets past their tough fact-checking standards).

However, this is entirely not the case with Faux News. They clearly do not have rigorous fact checking because they regularly air incorrect stories or false reporting, and then when the are outed for it, rather than issue a retraction, they gloss over the errors with an attitude of "Oh well, moving right along". The only reason I ever tune in to Faux News is to quickly catch up on what lies they are telling their viewers this week.

I have yet to find a right-bias news source as diligent in their reporting as the others I mentioned earlier.

The Wall Street Journal meets your needs.

Horatius 28th November 2019 06:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12906742)
That's so sweet. But what's the point of the impeachment inquiry? Is it just jobsworths doing their jobs?



Back when I said "We need "So little doubt that even the most corrupt ******** in the Senate finally feel some shame in trying to publicly claim there's still some doubt" levels of evidence", I wasn't just thinking about Senators. That line applies to just about everyone still supporting the Republican Party at this point, which means you.

There's no way you can't honestly see how bad the evidence against Trump is. The problem is, you apparently don't seem to care about that. You're happy playing these stupid reindeer games instead of doing what you know is right. So when I talk about "feel some shame in trying to publicly claim there's still some doubt" levels of evidence, I'm talking about you. These hearing need to continue until there's enough evidence on the table that even you finally throw your hands up and admit Trump needs to go, and needs to go now.

theprestige 28th November 2019 06:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf (Post 12906914)
Ask this guy....

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

yt;dw

The Great Zaganza 28th November 2019 07:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12907103)
yt;dw

It's Graham talking about the Clinton Impeachment, and how vital it was to impeach even if the Senate would not convict.

theprestige 28th November 2019 07:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza (Post 12907115)
It's Graham talking about the Clinton Impeachment, and how vital it was to impeach even if the Senate would not convict.

Thanks.

PhantomWolf, is Graham's argument supposed to be your argument? Is that why you posted it?

Minoosh 28th November 2019 07:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phiwum (Post 12907095)
The Wall Street Journal meets your needs.

I don't read it much because I don't subscribe, but I see it as valuable because it's also owned by Murdoch. If it reports anything negative about Trump it's much harder for conservatives to write it off as "fake news." The WSJ needs to retain its credibility as a serious news source. Fox News has no such issue.


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