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-   -   Covid-19 and Politics (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=342577)

Darat 25th March 2020 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Planigale (Post 13032816)


It’s a potential order based on them getting a prototype design approved, then they have to start the manufacturing, it is going to take more than 2 weeks. But note this is not what some people were calling for I.e the idea that a someone like a car manufacturer could almost immediately switch their production lines to making ventilators. In fact this is what was suggested by some people in this thread. Assuming they can produce an adequate model I wonder whether Dylan will be sharing their design with other engineering companies....

a_unique_person 25th March 2020 10:22 PM

I suppose they will include the Dyson markup and be made entirely of plastic with some gaudy plastic structural features that serve no purpose at all.

Aber 26th March 2020 01:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darat (Post 13032914)
It’s a potential order based on them getting a prototype design approved,

Approval expected tomorrow

https://www.ft.com/content/4cc667f2-...f-41bea055720b

Darat 26th March 2020 01:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aber (Post 13033174)

Subscription required, all the other articles I've read are just saying soon not tomorrow? Fingers crossed its not as bad as his washers!

The Don 26th March 2020 01:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darat (Post 13033179)
Subscription required, all the other articles I've read are just saying soon not tomorrow? Fingers crossed its not as bad as his washers!

I searched for the headline and was able to access the article. Here is the paragraph regarding regulatory approval:

Quote:

The appliances maker told staff it had received a UK government order for 10,000 of the devices and aims to begin delivering them “in weeks”, contingent on regulatory approval it expects to obtain on Friday.*
The expectation is from Dyson, which may or may not be realistic.

Planigale 26th March 2020 02:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by a_unique_person (Post 13033135)
I suppose they will include the Dyson markup and be made entirely of plastic with some gaudy plastic structural features that serve no purpose at all.

So this is what it looks like
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-52043767
Not too gaudy.

From what I can make out from the picture it looks like a pressure cycled ventilator. Whether it is patient triggered or delivers mandatory ventilation is unclear. Not hugely sophisticated but if you have relatively inexperienced staff that is not a bad thing.

ETA
Government specification
https://www.gov.uk/government/public...-specification

Pixel42 26th March 2020 02:09 AM

Sounds like they're going to be made in the aircraft hangars at the Hullavington site Dyson recently bought, which is a couple of miles from me.

Ivor the Engineer 26th March 2020 02:40 AM

How appropriate is it that the trade nickname for Dyson products is Die-soon!

:D

Ivor the Engineer 26th March 2020 02:57 AM

Having worked on developing medical products in the past the biggest delay will not be the engineering per se, but the huge amounts of verification and documentation that needs to be completed and signed-off before a product is allowed anywhere near a patient outside a controlled trial setting. This can take months, particularly if the product has software controlling vital functions.

The only way round this is if a company is simply making direct copies of an existing design that has already passed all the necessary regulatory approvals.

The Don 26th March 2020 03:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ivor the Engineer (Post 13033212)
Having worked on developing medical products in the past the biggest delay will not be the engineering per se, but the huge amounts of verification and documentation that needs to be completed and signed-off before a product is allowed anywhere near a patient outside a controlled trial setting. This can take months, particularly if the product has software controlling vital functions.

The only way round this is if a company is simply making direct copies of an existing design that has already passed all the necessary regulatory approvals.

Perhaps the government is willing to shortcut, or even eliminate, that process in the face of the Coronavirus crisis and because Dyson are major donors renowned for the excellence and reliability of their products.

Having seen the number of Dyson vacuum cleaners my various friends have been through over the years (as opposed to the Panasonic upright one Mrs Don and I bought in 1993 and which is still doing sterling service), I'd have no qualms about bypassing approvals. :rolleyes:

Captain_Swoop 26th March 2020 03:32 AM

“The government should have given funding to existing ventilator manufacturers, and existing companies like us.”

Quote:

Andrew Raynor of MEC Medical, a medical parts manufacturer, says “nothing” happened when he contacted the govt offering to make #Covid19 ventilators

Onn BBC 'Newsnight'

So the govt still acting like spivs, giving contracts to their donors who have never made any medical equipment and have no manufacturing in the UK rather than to existing manufacturers of ventilatorsl.

Captain_Swoop 26th March 2020 03:40 AM

UK govt says they can't release full figures for deaths without permission from families because of 'data protection rules'

So UK figures are lower than they should be.

Squeegee Beckenheim 26th March 2020 03:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop (Post 13033227)
UK govt says they can't release full figures for deaths without permission from families because of 'data protection rules'

That sounds like absolute nonsense. I can imagine that maybe they can't release names, but statistics? Why doesn't that apply to all deaths?

I can believe they're artificially reducing the numbers, though.

GlennB 26th March 2020 03:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop (Post 13033227)
UK govt says they can't release full figures for deaths without permission from families because of 'data protection rules'

That sounds like total bollocks. Can the publication of anonymous numbers be restricted by 'data protection rules'?

Captain_Swoop 26th March 2020 03:59 AM

It was on BBC Newsnight, Department of Health says it's data protection laws stopping hospitals releasing the cause of death, they are only allowed to release total number of deaths at the hospital.


Complete bollocks of course but it does make it look like the death rate has dropped.

The Don 26th March 2020 04:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GlennB (Post 13033231)
That sounds like total bollocks. Can the publication of anonymous numbers be restricted by 'data protection rules'?

It depends on whether there's a breakdown by age, gender or location.

If the figures could be used to show that an 80-85 year old woman died in Midsommer, and the population is small enough to identify the individual, then that could be a problem.

Ivor the Engineer 26th March 2020 04:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Don (Post 13033237)
It depends on whether there's a breakdown by age, gender or location.

If the figures could be used to show that an 80-85 year old woman died in Midsommer, and the population is small enough to identify the individual, then that could be a problem.

Covid-19 is the least of your worries in Midsommer. :)

The Don 26th March 2020 04:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop (Post 13033222)
“The government should have given funding to existing ventilator manufacturers, and existing companies like us.”

Quote:

Quote:
Andrew Raynor of MEC Medical, a medical parts manufacturer, says “nothing” happened when he contacted the govt offering to make #Covid19 ventilators
On BBC 'Newsnight'

So the govt still acting like spivs, giving contracts to their donors who have never made any medical equipment and have no manufacturing in the UK rather than to existing manufacturers of ventilators.

It's much better to be seen to be taking extraordinary measures than simply doing a little bit more.

"Government moving mountains to allow Dyson to make ventilators" makes the government seem much more dynamic than "MEC Medical to scale up production" :rolleyes:

Ivor the Engineer 26th March 2020 04:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Don (Post 13033239)
It's much better to be seen to be taking extraordinary measures than simply doing a little bit more.

"Government moving mountains to allow Dyson to make ventilators" makes the government seem much more dynamic than "MEC Medical to scale up production" :rolleyes:

Like the drive for people to donate metal objects in WWII. Aluminium pans to spitfires! Iron gates to tanks! Broken Dyson vacuum cleaners to ventilators!

P.J. Denyer 26th March 2020 08:43 AM

I heard on the radio that the government has distanced itself from Dyson over this, possibly because some (less politically active) manufactures of medical equipment have come forward to say that they have offered to increase production and had no response. A Downing St spokesman has stated that no orders will be placed until proof of concept models have been evaluated from a number of companies. The media of course is full of stories of how Dyson is supplying 10,000 ventilators, someone in marketing has earned themselves a big pay rise and a special place in Hell.

Garrison 26th March 2020 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop (Post 13033222)
“The government should have given funding to existing ventilator manufacturers, and existing companies like us.”




Onn BBC 'Newsnight'

So the govt still acting like spivs, giving contracts to their donors who have never made any medical equipment and have no manufacturing in the UK rather than to existing manufacturers of ventilatorsl.

And it seems prioritizing 'Brexit over breathing':

MP backlash over EU ventilator scheme

Quote:

The government is facing a backlash from MPs for not joining an EU scheme to get extra ventilators during the coronavirus outbreak.
The bloc has said the UK can take part in the project, which will use the EU's buying power to purchase more stock.
But a No 10 spokesman said the UK was "making [its] own efforts".
Liberal Democrat MP Layla Moran accused the PM of putting "Brexit over breathing".

William Parcher 26th March 2020 10:17 AM

UK to announce help for the self-employed.

Planigale 26th March 2020 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by William Parcher (Post 13033602)
UK to announce help for the self-employed.

Making ventilators?

Planigale 26th March 2020 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ivor the Engineer (Post 13033241)
Like the drive for people to donate metal objects in WWII. Aluminium pans to spitfires! Iron gates to tanks! Broken Dyson vacuum cleaners to ventilators!

When teaching medical students we often say that ventilators are like vacuum cleaners only blowing rather than sucking.

William Parcher 26th March 2020 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Planigale (Post 13033663)
Making ventilators?

My guess is that the self employed will get free money.

Mid 26th March 2020 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garrison (Post 13033546)
And it seems prioritizing 'Brexit over breathing':

MP backlash over EU ventilator scheme

Not to worry apparently the email was lost in the spam filter :jaw-dropp:

Quote:

Owing to an initial communication problem, the UK did not receive an invitation in time to join in four joint procurements in response to the coronavirus pandemic.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics...0878a2a48aae73

which is completely believable and not at all an obvious lie

Garrison 26th March 2020 11:54 AM

And it appears that after the outcry over not joining the EU scheme the government is claiming the failure to join the EU scheme was the result of a mix up, apparently the officials didn't get the emails. Probably have all mail from the EU sent straight to their spam folder...

ERTA: Ninja'd by Mid

P.J. Denyer 26th March 2020 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by William Parcher (Post 13033682)
My guess is that the self employed will get free money.

Well, we do pay taxes too and they're giving it out to larger businesses. But I doubt many of us will do particularly well out of it.

William Parcher 26th March 2020 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer (Post 13033764)
Well, we do pay taxes too and they're giving it out to larger businesses. But I doubt many of us will do particularly well out of it.

You might not get help because you haven't gone out of business - you are still walking dogs for pay.

Captain_Swoop 26th March 2020 12:30 PM

Self employed will get paid based on average of income over a number of months based on previous tax returns.
If you haven't been self employed for a year and sent in a tax return you get nothing at all.
Advice is tough **** sign up for Universal credit, it's 'too complicated' to do anything about it.

dann 26th March 2020 01:30 PM

Coronavirus-hit countries are asking Cuba for medical help. Why is the US opposed?
 
Cuba takes in British cruise ship MS Braemar:

Cuba will accept and assist travelers on British cruise ship MS Braemar (Granma, March 16, 2020)
A safe port amidst adversity (Granma, March 18, 2020)
Images of the historic moment Cuba mobilizes to save passengers and crew on the MS Braemar (+ Photos) (Granma, March 19, 2020)

And sends medical teams to help fight the coronavirus in other countries, including Lombardy, Italy:

#CubaSalva: The Revolution’s humanist practice (Granma, March 24, 2020)
Cuba ha annunciato l’invio di una brigata medica in missione solidaria in Italia (Granma, March 20, 2020)
“Humanitarian Solidarity”: Even Under U.S. Sanctions, Cuba Sends Doctor Brigade to Italy and More (DemocracyNow March 24, 2020)
Coronavirus-hit countries are asking Cuba for medical help. Why is the US opposed? (CNN, March 26, 2020)

Cuban Doctors - Medics head to Italy to help battle virus (Al Jazeera, March 22, 2020)
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

Cuban Health Care Workers Were Greeted with Applause in Italy (Now This, March 23, 2020)
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

chrispy 26th March 2020 02:15 PM

Our Gov't just extended our lockdown another month. We haven't heard if our current 4 pm to 4 AM curfew will stay in place. *sigh*... My work has been closed for 2 weeks and no end in sight. I'm stuck financially. Gov't says that electricity and intenet can't be cut off for failure to pay, but who knows. Our water is distributed by the municipality, so that should be OK... FML

a_unique_person 26th March 2020 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Planigale (Post 13033191)
So this is what it looks like
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-52043767
Not too gaudy.

From what I can make out from the picture it looks like a pressure cycled ventilator. Whether it is patient triggered or delivers mandatory ventilation is unclear. Not hugely sophisticated but if you have relatively inexperienced staff that is not a bad thing.

ETA
Government specification
https://www.gov.uk/government/public...-specification

What did the call it? The " Vampire Monster Godzilla" works for me.

catsmate 26th March 2020 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ceptimus (Post 13031987)
Prince Charles has been tested for COVID-19 (he has mild symptoms and has tested positive). There still aren't any tests available for doctors and nurses nor for any normal person without very severe symptoms - but things are different when you're royal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ceptimus (Post 13032000)
We're all in this together. Except that we aren't.

It's your monarchy.

catsmate 26th March 2020 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim (Post 13032217)
This twitter thread about how the UK government is failing to protect frontline medical staff, and failing to follow WHO's advice is infuriating. Worth reading the whole thing (it's short), but the key points are: a British company making a rapid test is exporting them because it can't sell them to the NHS here; a company who makes PPE has also been turned down for selling them to the NHS, while NHS staff have inadequate PPE and are being told to share masks; WHO is urging countries to test as many people as possible, yet the UK is only testing people admitted to hospital, is not testing NHS staff, and even abandoned all together for a period of time.

Are they Conservative party donors and/or ardent Brexit supporters?

catsmate 26th March 2020 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop (Post 13032824)
Ordering and producing are different things. What is the lead time on this?

Given that, unlike the companies who specialise in and currently produce actual ventilators (rather than overpriced vacuum cleaners), Dyson's design has yet to be tested and validated quite a long time.
But then Dyson is a supporter of the Conservative Party, Brexit and the Bouffant Buffoon. :rolleyes:

catsmate 26th March 2020 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darat (Post 13032914)
It’s a potential order based on them getting a prototype design approved, then they have to start the manufacturing, it is going to take more than 2 weeks.

They'd also have to develop the tooling to manufacture the parts and manage QC.

catsmate 26th March 2020 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop (Post 13033222)
“The government should have given funding to existing ventilator manufacturers, and existing companies like us.”

Onn BBC 'Newsnight'

So the govt still acting like spivs, giving contracts to their donors who have never made any medical equipment and have no manufacturing in the UK rather than to existing manufacturers of ventilatorsl.

Utterly unsurprising. Like BoJo's refusal to join the European ventilator consortium because the UK could do better on its own.
Thankfully this bit of jingoistic, Brexiteer nonsense has been scrapped.

catsmate 26th March 2020 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ivor the Engineer (Post 13033238)
Covid-19 is the least of your worries in Midsommer. :)

Indeed, Watch out for sinister undertakers and cheese wheels,

catsmate 26th March 2020 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dann (Post 13033877)
Cuba takes in British cruise ship MS Braemar:

Cuba will accept and assist travelers on British cruise ship MS Braemar (Granma, March 16, 2020)
A safe port amidst adversity (Granma, March 18, 2020)
Images of the historic moment Cuba mobilizes to save passengers and crew on the MS Braemar (+ Photos) (Granma, March 19, 2020)

And sends medical teams to help fight the coronavirus in other countries, including Lombardy, Italy:

#CubaSalva: The Revolution’s humanist practice (Granma, March 24, 2020)
Cuba ha annunciato l’invio di una brigata medica in missione solidaria in Italia (Granma, March 20, 2020)
“Humanitarian Solidarity”: Even Under U.S. Sanctions, Cuba Sends Doctor Brigade to Italy and More (DemocracyNow March 24, 2020)
Coronavirus-hit countries are asking Cuba for medical help. Why is the US opposed? (CNN, March 26, 2020)

Cuban Doctors - Medics head to Italy to help battle virus (Al Jazeera, March 22, 2020)
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

Cuban Health Care Workers Were Greeted with Applause in Italy (Now This, March 23, 2020)
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

An authoritarian state, an island, and an excellent health care system, they're well poised to fight Covid-19.


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