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-   -   The Jan. 6 Investigation (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=353105)

Ziggurat 29th July 2021 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smartcooky (Post 13552686)
- They had an inbox with over 400,000 tips in it and it is still building.

- They have arrested and charged almost 600 people out of the 30,000+ people who were at the riot, about 100 of whom have only been arrested in the last 5 weeks

- They had to review tens of thousand of hours of video, and are still doing it. We have only seen a small part of the total. The FBI are keeping some of that under wraps (no discovery is required until charges are laid)

All this takes time... time and resources, and frankly, with the scale of this investigation (when was the last time almost 600 people have been arrested and charged for participating in a single riot?) I am staggered that they have manage to get so far along on this.

But you are expecting instant results.... ain't gonna happen!

6 months isn't instant. And yeah, I get that it doesn't all happen instantly, that more charges are likely to come for more people.

But attempted murder is a lot more significant than trespassing and disorderly conduct. Shouldn't such cases have priority? Shouldn't at least ONE of the supposed many attempted murderers be up on charges by now? It's not impossible that someone will be. But it seems... unlikely, at this point.

acbytesla 29th July 2021 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimbob (Post 13552696)
Hey, there's felony murder, which even though it didn't involve the police officers being attacked, I would be happy with their attackers being charged with.

I don't see Felony murder as likely.

acbytesla 29th July 2021 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ziggurat (Post 13552712)
6 months isn't instant. And yeah, I get that it doesn't all happen instantly, that more charges are likely to come for more people.

But attempted murder is a lot more significant than trespassing and disorderly conduct. Shouldn't such cases have priority? Shouldn't at least ONE of the supposed many attempted murderers be up on charges by now? It's not impossible that someone will be. But it seems... unlikely, at this point.

Simple answer...NO. They are going to pressure some of these people to flip which will result in the more serious charges. So the more serious charges might take years.

theprestige 29th July 2021 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darat (Post 13552108)
Why would you be looking to pass new laws? The actions were already against the law.

Because they're the legislature. The whole point of congressional hearings is to determine if some new remedy in law is called for.*

acbytesla 29th July 2021 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 13552752)
Because they're the legislature. The whole point of congressional hearings is to determine if some new remedy in law is called for.*

True, but not always. Was any new laws passed after the JFK investigation? How about Ben Ghazi? How How about HUARC?

Skeptic Ginger 29th July 2021 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ziggurat (Post 13552664)
Yes. The DOJ page I linked lists the status of all cases. From hers:
Arrested 1/29/21. Initial appearance 2/8/21.

Charged via criminal information 4/1/21. Arraigned 4/29/21 where she pleaded not guilty to all counts.

Defendant remains on peronal recognizane. Status conference set for 9/28/21 at 3:00 pm.

So we are back to 'made a threat' not 'attempted murder'. And as was mentioned more charges can still be added.

Skeptic Ginger 29th July 2021 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ziggurat (Post 13552712)
6 months isn't instant. And yeah, I get that it doesn't all happen instantly, that more charges are likely to come for more people.

But attempted murder is a lot more significant than trespassing and disorderly conduct. Shouldn't such cases have priority? Shouldn't at least ONE of the supposed many attempted murderers be up on charges by now? It's not impossible that someone will be. But it seems... unlikely, at this point.

I would think the first cases to be seen in court are those that can be dispatched quickly.

A complicated case would be much later. Takes time to prepare on both sides. Defense attorneys request delays all the time.

Ziggurat 29th July 2021 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by acbytesla (Post 13552724)
Simple answer...NO. They are going to pressure some of these people to flip which will result in the more serious charges. So the more serious charges might take years.

I doubt it. There was no grand conspiracy here.

acbytesla 29th July 2021 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger (Post 13552761)
I would think the first cases to be seen in court are those that can be dispatched quickly.

A complicated case would be much later. Takes time to prepare on both sides. Defense attorneys request delays all the time.

The so called "tourists". People who entered the Capitol building later and there is little to no evidence of any violence or planning. But new evidence is coming in every day. Someone who may appear at first glance as a tourist might be discovered to be in a lot more trouble.

acbytesla 29th July 2021 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ziggurat (Post 13552780)
I doubt it. There was no grand conspiracy here.

Yes there definitely was a conspiracy. There are at least a dozen Proud Boys and Oath keepers charged with conspiracy.

TheGoldcountry 29th July 2021 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ziggurat (Post 13552780)
I doubt it. There was no grand conspiracy here.

Well, I'm glad you cleared that up. Here I thought they should investigate.

"Never mind questioning them, boys. Nothing to see here."

What an arrogant, condescending thing to assert.

Ziggurat 29th July 2021 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheGoldcountry (Post 13552786)
Well, I'm glad you cleared that up. Here I thought they should investigate.

"Never mind questioning them, boys. Nothing to see here."

What an arrogant, condescending thing to assert.

You can call it whatever you want, it remains true. Insulting me won't change that. More investigation won't find what they've been unable to find any trace of so far.

And really, what do you expect? You expect a grand conspiracy spearheaded by the likes of that idiot with a buffalo hat and face paint? That's how you topple the US federal government? Please. They might find a few loons in a basement who "conspired", but there isn't going to be anything else, no matter how long you look.

kookbreaker 29th July 2021 04:51 PM

Ah, so we are back to the 'downplay the whole thing' tactic again, I see.

New shades of "Trump isn't uniquely bad" routine?

Ziggurat 29th July 2021 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by acbytesla (Post 13552783)
Yes there definitely was a conspiracy. There are at least a dozen Proud Boys and Oath keepers charged with conspiracy.

What part of "grand" did you not understand? You can charge people for criminal conspiracy even if the conspiracy is small and pathetic. Which those were.

Belz... 29th July 2021 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ziggurat (Post 13552712)
6 months isn't instant. And yeah, I get that it doesn't all happen instantly, that more charges are likely to come for more people.

But attempted murder is a lot more significant than trespassing and disorderly conduct. Shouldn't such cases have priority? Shouldn't at least ONE of the supposed many attempted murderers be up on charges by now? It's not impossible that someone will be. But it seems... unlikely, at this point.

What do you think should happen to the people who did these things? You saw the videos. You read the reports. What should happen? And don't give me some vague answer.

Belz... 29th July 2021 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kookbreaker (Post 13552798)
Ah, so we are back to the 'downplay the whole thing' tactic again, I see.

New shades of "Trump isn't uniquely bad" routine?

"But it wasn't outlandish!"

PhantomWolf 29th July 2021 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Belz... (Post 13552826)
"But it wasn't outlandish!"

They were just a bunch of terrorists tourists!

Standing about and brutally attacking hugging and kissing the police.

acbytesla 29th July 2021 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ziggurat (Post 13552800)
What part of "grand" did you not understand? You can charge people for criminal conspiracy even if the conspiracy is small and pathetic. Which those were.

Trump is a co-conspirator as are Congressmen and others. This was a an insurrection and Trump was the mastermind. But Trump's attempt was designed to provide him deniability.

He made it clear to others what he wanted done without telling them to do it explicitly. Exactly as Michael Cohen described how he operates.

Trump was Henry the II. "Will no one rid me of this meddlesome priest."

He wanted a coup. He organized the rally on the day of the counting. He told the rioters to walk down to the Capitol. Other speakers told the attendees to fight. His cronies in the military would not call for a response. And Trump cheered the rioters on.

Dread Pirate Roberts 29th July 2021 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by acbytesla (Post 13552755)
True, but not always. Was any new laws passed after the JFK investigation? How about Ben Ghazi? How How about HUARC?

Killing the President wasn't a federal crime when JFK was assassinated, and that was changed in '65. So perhaps in that instance yes.

acbytesla 29th July 2021 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dread Pirate Roberts (Post 13552836)
Killing the President wasn't a federal crime when JFK was assassinated, and that was changed in '65. So perhaps in that instance yes.

Good one. :thumbsup:

Resume 29th July 2021 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by acbytesla (Post 13552835)
. . . Trump was the mastermind.

Sir! You go too far.

acbytesla 29th July 2021 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Resume (Post 13552849)
Sir! You go too far.

Point taken.

dirtywick 29th July 2021 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Belz... (Post 13552822)
What do you think should happen to the people who did these things? You saw the videos. You read the reports. What should happen? And don't give me some vague answer.

I would assume attempted murder charges since it was such a big point of contention

dirtywick 29th July 2021 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by acbytesla (Post 13552783)
Yes there definitely was a conspiracy. There are at least a dozen Proud Boys and Oath keepers charged with conspiracy.

It's weird to see someone assert there was no conspiracy when people are literally charged with conspiracy. People have already plead guilty to that in fact.

But, to be fair, not attempted murder.

smartcooky 29th July 2021 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ziggurat (Post 13552712)
But attempted murder is a lot more significant than trespassing and disorderly conduct. Shouldn't such cases have priority? Shouldn't at least ONE of the supposed many attempted murderers be up on charges by now? It's not impossible that someone will be. But it seems... unlikely, at this point.

Attempted Murder requires three things

1. An actual witness to the attempt to murder, or forensic evidence that an attempt was made to murder the victim

AND

2. A person or persons to be individually identified as the perpetrator(s) who attempted to murder the victim.

AND

3. Something called "Mens Rea" - the intention of committing the crime charged

It will be very difficult, if not impossible to prove that all three existed. At one extreme end, if you shoot someone with a double tap to the head at point blank range and they somehow survive, it would be fairly easy to prove attempted murder, since you would have a very difficult time explaining what it was that you were actually trying to do. At the other extreme end, if you push someone over and they fall and hit the head, it will be impossible to prove attempted murder.

These Capitol riot cases lie somewhere between those two extremes.

dirtywick 29th July 2021 05:57 PM

I think there were people there aiming to kill specific individuals that they never had a chance to and were willing to, and did, hurt other people that stood in their way. I don't think attempted murder is an appropriate charge for any of that though.

smartcooky 29th July 2021 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ziggurat (Post 13552780)
I doubt it. There was no grand conspiracy here.

Bzzzzt: Wrong!

Oath Keepers

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/three...iracy-obstruct

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/oath-ke...eth-harrelson/

https://www.justice.gov/usao-dc/pr/o...capitol-breach

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/fou...ng-2021-05-31/

Proud Boys

https://www.npr.org/2021/03/19/97930...6-capitol-riot

https://www.justice.gov/usao-dc/pr/t...-jan-6-capitol

https://www.cnn.com/2021/03/19/polit...tol/index.html

Three Percenters

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/10/u...itol-riot.html

PhantomWolf 29th July 2021 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirtywick (Post 13552858)
I think there were people there aiming to kill specific individuals that they never had a chance to and were willing to, and did, hurt other people that stood in their way. I don't think attempted murder is an appropriate charge for any of that though.

It is possible that we might see some Felony Murder charges, but again they are tough ones to decide, so it'll take a while to work through the evidence and determine if the charges can be laid.

acbytesla 29th July 2021 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf (Post 13552861)
It is possible that we might see some Felony Murder charges, but again they are tough ones to decide, so it'll take a while to work through the evidence and determine if the charges can be laid.

I doubt it. Not a fan of felony murder as a crime. How does one decide who out of 600 people who should or shouldn't be charged with this crime? It would be too arbitrary.

dudalb 29th July 2021 06:22 PM

TO me it's pretty simple:

If the GOP congress critters have nothing to hide, why are they so against any investigation?

dudalb 29th July 2021 06:24 PM

I think the attemtp to shift the discussion to the murder charges is a red herring, a distraction.
They don't want to talk about Insurrection?
And I wonder if they would feel the same way about murder charges if they coame out of the BLM protests?

PhantomWolf 29th July 2021 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by acbytesla (Post 13552885)
I doubt it. Not a fan of felony murder as a crime. How does one decide who out of 600 people should or shouldn't be charged with this crime. It would be too arbitrary.

Proximity. Those that were attacking the door with Bappit when she was shot for instance. The trick is to determine who was committing the specific crime with the person killed or was involved in their killing rather than charging everyone. Hence why it would likely take a lot of time.

Joecool 29th July 2021 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dudalb (Post 13552891)
TO me it's pretty simple:

If the GOP congress critters have nothing to hide, why are they so against any investigation?

Who said the GOP congress was against "any investigation"?

Or turning the spin around, why was Pelosi against a bipartisan investigation?

acbytesla 29th July 2021 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf (Post 13552897)
Proximity. Those that were attacking the door with Bappit when she was shot for instance. The trick is to determine who was committing the specific crime with the person killed or was involved in their killing rather than charging everyone. Hence why it would likely take a lot of time.

Maybe. But other windows and doors were broken through by the rioters. Do you charge anyone near those locations? This seems too arbitrary.

PhantomWolf 29th July 2021 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joecool (Post 13552900)
Who said the GOP congress was against "any investigation"?

Or turning the spin around, why was Pelosi against a bipartisan investigation?

Huh? Do you mean like the one that the Democrats put forward that had 6 members from each party, with a chair and co-chair, one from each party, and with equal powers? The one that gave Republicans everything they asked for except inclusion of the irrelevant BLM protests? Do you mean like that bipartisan investigation for which only 2 Republicans were willing to vote for? That bipartisan investigation?

Or do you mean how after Pelosi rejected two of the five nominated Republicans, both of who have shown that they would not be impartial, and one who is a potential witness, MacCarthy reacted by refusing to let any Republicans serve on the committee instead of just nominating two others who weren't implicated in the insurrection? Cause you know, I'm just wondering.

Skeptic Ginger 29th July 2021 06:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ziggurat (Post 13552794)
You can call it whatever you want, it remains true. Insulting me won't change that. More investigation won't find what they've been unable to find any trace of so far.

And really, what do you expect? You expect a grand conspiracy spearheaded by the likes of that idiot with a buffalo hat and face paint? That's how you topple the US federal government? Please. They might find a few loons in a basement who "conspired", but there isn't going to be anything else, no matter how long you look.

You so are not paying attention. And your face-painted guy with the horns on his hat is a serious straw man here. Who said he had jack to do with the conspiracy?

No. There was planning. You think those guys wear flack jackets and helmets whenever they visit DC? Radios, plenty of chatter in the days leading up to the rally...

Then you have Dump's role. It looks like, though we haven't seen all the evidence yet, that Dump planned to delay help arriving.

So stop wasting our time with the shiny objects like shaman hats and podium stealers. There was some serious (though clearly stupid) planning here.

PhantomWolf 29th July 2021 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by acbytesla (Post 13552906)
Maybe. But other windows and doors were broken through by the rioters. Do you charge anyone near those locations? This seems too arbitrary.

Did anyone die there? Felony Murder requires that those charged are involved with the crime that was happening at the time of the killing, only those directly involved can be charged, there is nothing arbitrary about that.

acbytesla 29th July 2021 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joecool (Post 13552900)
Who said the GOP congress was against "any investigation"?

They did. They were given every opportunity to have a joint investigation and refused.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joecool (Post 13552900)
Or turning the spin around, why was Pelosi against a bipartisan investigation?

This is revisionist history as well as inaccurate.
1. They were given every opportunity to have a joint investigation and refused.
2, This is a bipartisan investigation. There are 2 Republicans on the committee.

Skeptic Ginger 29th July 2021 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smartcooky (Post 13552857)
Attempted Murder requires three things

1. An actual witness to the attempt to murder, or forensic evidence that an attempt was made to murder the victim

AND

2. A person or persons to be individually identified as the perpetrator(s) who attempted to murder the victim.

AND

3. Something called "Mens Rea" - the intention of committing the crime charged

It will be very difficult, if not impossible to prove that all three existed. At one extreme end, if you shoot someone with a double tap to the head at point blank range and they somehow survive, it would be fairly easy to prove attempted murder, since you would have a very difficult time explaining what it was that you were actually trying to do. At the other extreme end, if you push someone over and they fall and hit the head, it will be impossible to prove attempted murder.

These Capitol riot cases lie somewhere between those two extremes.

Not so difficult with all those videos. Maybe they'll get to plea down to 'with intent to cause serious bodily harm'. But according to the police testimony, death threads were clearly made during the vicious attacks.

Stacyhs 29th July 2021 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul2 (Post 13552582)
Two (all three?) of those links mention court documents in which the rioters admit to wanting to kill Pence and Pelosi, but none of your links contain links to those court documents, and a quick internet search came up empty for me, too. Do you have any links to those court documents?

The other piece of evidence along those lines, other than a news article saying that the court documents exist, was a tweet from a photographer who overheard several rioters saying they want to kill P & P. That's a first-hand witness, but I'd love to see those court docs.

No, I don't have a link to those court documents. It's likely they are still restricted to only certain clearances seeing them.


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