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-   -   The Jan. 6 Investigation (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=353105)

SuburbanTurkey 30th July 2021 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy (Post 13553654)
I don't know if SuburbanTurkey will agree or appreciate this but he has just said the same thing Ziggurat is saying. The actual conspiracies amongst this group are very limited and are in the "loons in the basement" category. There are not very many opportunities for flipping simply because most of the people involved didn't even know any of the other participants save the person or people they came with.

Is this controversial? I'm not sure what Ziggurat post you're referencing, but I agree with your characterization here.

The vast majority of the CHUDs arrested are not being charged with conspiracy because there is very little evidence to suggest they coordinated with others beyond a very informal way that strangers participating in a riot are acting in concert.

I suppose a case could be made that every single person there was operating under an implied agreement to "stop the steal", but that seems like a hard case to make for a conspiracy charge.

A lot of the people charged have been hit with a charge related to interfering in an official proceeding. That seems incontrovertible given what we know. Only the organized cells have been hit with conspiracy charges, and nothing has arisen from these cases yet to suggest these cells had any outside leadership beyond the membership of their own independent fascist organizations.

dirtywick 30th July 2021 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy (Post 13553654)
I don't know if SuburbanTurkey will agree or appreciate this but he has just said the same thing Ziggurat is saying. The actual conspiracies amongst this group are very limited and are in the "loons in the basement" category. There are not very many opportunities for flipping simply because most of the people involved didn't even know any of the other participants save the person or people they came with.

Giuliani, Sydney Powell, Lin Wood, Mike Flynn, Roger Stone, Trump, etc. are all loons in a basement.

RecoveringYuppy 30th July 2021 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey (Post 13553667)
Still waiting for you to cite the line from the prosecutor's filing that makes it clear they had no intention to use these restraints on anyone. You made it very clear that it was in plain black and white.

Link in post 200.

JoeMorgue 30th July 2021 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey (Post 13553674)
Is this controversial?

No but the trolls think if we admit that most of the idiots there that day just got worked into a frenzy and didn't specifically have like some 30 Slide Power Point plan in their heads about what to do, that means what they did wasn't "uniquely bad" or "that bad" or whatever B.S. apologetic downplaying they have in mind.

Most of them were idiots without a plan. They were all still traitorous coup participants. The trolls think that's a paradox they've trapped us in, when it is not.

SuburbanTurkey 30th July 2021 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy (Post 13553676)
Link in post 200.

There's nothing there that justifies Ziggurat's flippant level of certainty.

The claim that he was stealing the cuffs to deprive the police of them simply does not survive scrutiny when looking at the totality of the facts. I'm not seeing any statement in that article, or in the filing itself, where prosecutors are plainly stating that they believe there was no motive to use the cuffs, and in several cases seem to be implying otherwise.

Belz... 30th July 2021 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ziggurat (Post 13553653)
A large competent group with a plan of illegal actions that would actually accomplish something real. Just planning to break in to stop the proceedings on that day (with no plan for what happens if they just do everything tomorrow) isn't a grand plan.

So "grand" means "competent and numerous"? Well they were numerous, but I'm not aware of competence being a requisite.

Belz... 30th July 2021 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirtywick (Post 13553670)
Well it seems like grand can be anything. It can even be a boat.

Family Guy reference understood.

SuburbanTurkey 30th July 2021 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue (Post 13553678)
No but the trolls think if we admit that most of the idiots there that day just got worked into a frenzy and didn't specifically have like some 30 Slide Power Point plan in their heads about what to do, that means what they did wasn't "uniquely bad" or "that bad" or whatever B.S. apologetic downplaying they have in mind.

Most of them were idiots without a plan. They were all still traitorous coup participants. The trolls think that's a paradox they've trapped us in, when it is not.

I think a lot of people are going to be disappointed that a lot of these CHUDs are not going to get much jail time. Those that attacked the cops or engaged in conspiracy are in deep water, but a lot of these traitors (a characterization I agree with) are probably going to get sentences similar to what we've already seen come down. Maybe some jail time, but not much.

Proud boys and Oathkeepers are properly ******, which I'm enjoying very much. Fedrico Tarrio managed to be MIA under suspicious circumstances during the great dick-slamming, which I'm sure is going over like a lead balloon among his fellow fascists.

ETA: A lot of these goons were carrying weapons of various sorts, which makes them much, much worse off even if they didn't use them. The case of the Q shaman is especially funny. I would expect they get some real jail time.

RecoveringYuppy 30th July 2021 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey (Post 13553674)
Is this controversial? I'm not sure what Ziggurat post you're referencing, but I agree with your characterization here.

It's just controversial in that some people seem to have very exaggerated expectations about what to expect in regards to future charges. Attempted murder seems to be especially misunderstood. I don't have any quotes handy but it seemed to me several posters were seeing attempted murder charges when it was disorderly conduct that would actually apply.

crescent 30th July 2021 11:58 AM

I'm leaning in that it was a bunch of (half-a$$ed) little conspiracies.

I've been following the Q thing for a bit now, and I've realized that it is the ultimate Conspiracy Theory for lazy people. It's all about "Trust the Plan" - with the military largely being the one who have the plan and will do most of the work.

And they believed that "The Plan" included the execution of a whole bunch of Democrats, along with a good many RINO's thrown in for good measure.

So I think these people thought that they would go there and help take over the government. They likely assumed that lots of other people were also doing their things, like the doors would fly open and the military would be there with the House and Senate members in handcuffs, marched out for a public Court Martial. The Q heads really, really like the military and the CTs are all about the military doing this and that, and the rest of us just need to "Trust the Plan" that the military will implement.

So they did what they planned to do - that's enough for Conspiracy. They (the Q heads) take the front while the military does its thing in the back.

Support through physical action what they believe will be the military's effort to execute most of the Democrats? That's getting close to attempted murder, even if the military never had any such "Plan".

It's just that they are not very bright, and they "Trusted the Plan" which didn't actually exist among the people with actual power.


The scary part it that it might have sort of worked well enough to cause a bigger disruption than it did. Trump could have ordered a military action - his order would not have been followed by the Brass, but if he gave the order in public, I've no doubt he could've caused disruption as individual military people tried to defy their superiors and carry out the orders of the Commander in Chief. Illegal orders, but those individuals would not believe that, they would break their Oath while believing to their core that they were doing what was needed to do to uphold that same oath. Trump could've actually gone to the Capitol building itself. With all that, they could have disrupted the EC process.

Which would not result in Trump retaining the Presidency. His term would have ended regardless and the civil service would have transitioned no matter what he did. At most, we would have had a day or two of President Pelosi - but there would by then be severe damage to the faith we American have in our government and Republican Democracy.

We dodged a bullet that day.

wareyin 30th July 2021 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy (Post 13553676)
Link in post 200.

The link in post 200 is to a news article that makes the claim that zip-tie guy was taking the cuffs to prevent them from being available to be used by police. Zig claimed that this claim was made by prosecutors in the filing. Reading the filing and the link Zig gave both do not show that claim anywhere except by the author of the article.

theprestige 30th July 2021 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Belz... (Post 13553682)
So "grand" means "competent and numerous"? Well they were numerous, but I'm not aware of competence being a requisite.

I'd settle for "an actionable plan to overthrow the government and/or assassinate members of the government".

Honestly most of the ANTIFA/BLM protests over the preceding year were probably better organized than this thing.

RecoveringYuppy 30th July 2021 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wareyin (Post 13553695)
The link in post 200 is to a news article that makes the claim that zip-tie guy was taking the cuffs to prevent them from being available to be used by police. Zig claimed that this claim was made by prosecutors in the filing. Reading the filing and the link Zig gave both do not show that claim anywhere except by the author of the article.

It's on page 20 of the prosecutors filing. You're referring to his mothers statements cited in the article, correct? "Don't carry the zip ties, just get 'em out of their hand, out of [unintelligible] get 'em out of our hands".

Skeptic Ginger 30th July 2021 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirtywick (Post 13553132)
You don't think they're going to give impassioned speeches and scold the GOP from the moral high ground? They're going to do that every chance they get.

Not really sure why you're rolling your eyes, most of what's come out so far has looked awful for the GOP and they're doing everything they can to distract from the substance of the investigation out of some combination of culpability and fear of the wrath of Trump. Jim Jordan doesn't even want to admit he made a call to Trump. They do not want to talk about this stuff at all.

To the first bolded: Maybe, but what they have to say will be true, no need to posture or exaggerate.

To the second: After just writing your first paragraph, I thought the second one disproved the first. IOW the GOP looks really bad and if they looked that bad, why would you say the Democrats would be posturing?

I think I understand what you meant but honestly, everything is not purely political. Some things are actually true what legislators say in press conferences. Are you suggesting the Democrats say nothing? The GOP is doing all it can to sweep this very serious thing under the rug. Too bad for them it still shows as very large noticeable lumps under their rug.

Skeptic Ginger 30th July 2021 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cain (Post 13553079)
I know little about the threats, but there is a distinction to be made between a threat and a true threat. Between someone who says they're going to blow up a school and a person who has a map of the school highlighting vulnerable entry points. A person who has reconned the school documenting arrival times of service vehicles etc. Some people had zip ties, others were caught up in a monkey-see, monkey-do.

What do you think a frenzied mob would have done had they gotten their hands on any of those unarmed legislators?

Skeptic Ginger 30th July 2021 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza (Post 13553168)
The fact that a member of Congress showed up to the rally in a bulletproof vest should be evidence enough that he believed that these were not harmless tourists.
And he ought to know.

That's interesting. I hope the committee gets a chance to ask him why.

acbytesla 30th July 2021 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 13553705)
I'd settle for "an actionable plan to overthrow the government and/or assassinate members of the government".

Honestly most of the ANTIFA/BLM protests over the preceding year were probably better organized than this thing.

BS. When do you acknowledge the obvious facts?

This was an attack on democracy. One which is ongoing. The President and his cabal invited the dregs to stop the transition of power. It involved GOP Congressmen and Senators and military generals.

But they desperately wanted deniability. So they allowed the hotjobs to do the dirty work.
They wanted to stop the counting of the vote and Trump was prepared to declare Martial Law.

JoeMorgue 30th July 2021 12:22 PM

We've already had one the Republicans who was caught on film hiding behind a desk barricade on the day of the attacks claim it was just a bunch of "Rowdy Tourists" as if he hides from them everyday.

Logic doesn't work on people who deny reality.

This new idiot will look us straight in the face with no shame and act like just randomly deciding to wear a bullet proof vest one day for no reason is a perfectly logical thing to do and half this board will agree with him, and 1/4 of the remaining half will argue they totally don't agree with him but still do nothing but argue about why he's right.

wareyin 30th July 2021 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy (Post 13553715)
It's on page 20 of the prosecutors filing. You're referring to his mothers statements cited in the article, correct? "Don't carry the zip ties, just get 'em out of their hand, out of [unintelligible] get 'em out of our hands".

No, I'm referring to Zig's claim of why zip-tie guy picked up the restraints that Zig says was made by the prosecutors. I'm not referring to his Mother's advice about not being caught later with the zip-ties well after they were picked up.
eta: I'm referring to the claim that zip-tie guy only picked up a handful of restraints while leaving a tableful of them in order to prevent the restraining devices from being available for police use, to be clear.

I'm also not referring to zip-tie guy's claim to have been armed while wandering around the Capitol Building carrying these restraining devices after stating his intent for violence.

kookbreaker 30th July 2021 12:22 PM

The lack of preparation by the Capitol Police brass was either a deliberate hamstringing or a case of “don’t worry about the radicalized white guys”. Neither is a good look.

RecoveringYuppy 30th July 2021 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wareyin (Post 13553724)
No, I'm referring to ...

It all seems to be there to me and this seems like we've gone too far down excessive nitpicking and I really don't see the benefit of trying to micro manage the prosecutors.

wareyin 30th July 2021 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy (Post 13553732)
It all seems to be there to me and this seems like we've gone too far down excessive nitpicking and I really don't see the benefit of trying to micro manage the prosecutors.

Ok, if you see the prosecutors claiming that zip-tie guy only wanted to prevent the police from having zip-ties somewhere in that filing, I'd appreciate a quote.

JoeMorgue 30th July 2021 12:31 PM

When your wife walks in and catches you banging the babysitter, if your first response is to demand she define "sex", you're admitting to the affair.

This is no more complicated than that.

Silly Green Monkey 30th July 2021 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 13553705)
I'd settle for "an actionable plan to overthrow the government and/or assassinate members of the government".

Honestly most of the ANTIFA/BLM protests over the preceding year were probably better organized than this thing.

Had attendance been limited to mostly DC residents, or a handful of adjacent states, maybe that would show the same level of organization. For the protests, they were almost entirely comprised of residents of the city the protest was occurring. People came from all over the country to meet in DC all on the same day and time. In fact, given that many of the same groups and people were seen/arrested at the protests that spontaneously all decided to show up to the Capitol on the same day and time, the case could be made that they were practicing by organizing to crash protests.

JoeMorgue 30th July 2021 12:36 PM

We're talking "Prove to me there was planning" and they had goddamn t-shirts printed up.

dirtywick 30th July 2021 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger (Post 13553716)
To the first bolded: Maybe, but what they have to say will be true, no need to posture or exaggerate.

To the second: After just writing your first paragraph, I thought the second one disproved the first. IOW the GOP looks really bad and if they looked that bad, why would you say the Democrats would be posturing?

I think I understand what you meant but honestly, everything is not purely political. Some things are actually true what legislators say in press conferences. Are you suggesting the Democrats say nothing? The GOP is doing all it can to sweep this very serious thing under the rug. Too bad for them it still shows as very large noticeable lumps under their rug.

Well, I guess we'll see. I think they've badly mishandled the Mueller hearings and the impeachment investigation, and they were ready to anoint Michael Cohen the next messiah when he came to talk, so they have a bit of unimpressive recent history in these public hearings in my opinion. But, maybe they'll take a different approach this time.

Belz... 30th July 2021 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 13553705)
I'd settle for "an actionable plan to overthrow the government and/or assassinate members of the government".

Honestly most of the ANTIFA/BLM protests over the preceding year were probably better organized than this thing.

So you'd agree it doesn't need to be competent? After all, a bumbling thief is still a thief.

dirtywick 30th July 2021 12:55 PM

I guess I don't follow, is it that the assault on the capitol itself wasn't organized enough? Because I think months of lawsuits, press conferences, pressuring the DOJ and Pentagon, calls to various local officials to decertify election results, and ultimately the theory that Mike Pence had the power to choose the next president and if only someone would stop him from choosing Biden belies a certain level of organization that BLM and ANTIFA never had.

JoeMorgue 30th July 2021 12:58 PM

The point is that arguing about how "organized" it has to be before its a coup is completely besides the point, which is why it's all the trolls want to talk about.

theprestige 30th July 2021 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger (Post 13553718)
What do you think a frenzied mob would have done had they gotten their hands on any of those unarmed legislators?

Not carry out a conspiracy to assassinate legislators, that's for sure. A mob acting in the heat of the moment is pretty much the opposite of a planned act of violence.

Look at all the looting and arson and sometimes even death that occurred during the antifa/BLM protests. You think those protest organizers intended for that to happen? When protestors in Portland, OR barricaded people inside a police station and then set fire to it, that was something they'd conspired to do ahead of time?

Sauce for the goose is sauce for the other goose that identifies as a gander.

Shalamar 30th July 2021 01:20 PM

It's not a true insurrection unless it originated in the Coup region of southern France.

kookbreaker 30th July 2021 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 13553767)
Not carry out a conspiracy to assassinate legislators, that's for sure. A mob acting in the heat of the moment is pretty much the opposite of a planned act of violence.

Look at all the looting and arson and sometimes even death that occurred during the antifa/BLM protests. You think those protest organizers intended for that to happen? When protestors in Portland, OR barricaded people inside a police station and then set fire to it, that was something they'd conspired to do ahead of time?

Sauce for the goose is sauce for the other goose that identifies as a gander.

*sniff* *sniff*. Ahhhh, fresh roasted whataboutism.

acbytesla 30th July 2021 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 13553767)
Not carry out a conspiracy to assassinate legislators, that's for sure. A mob acting in the heat of the moment is pretty much the opposite of a planned act of violence.

Look at all the looting and arson and sometimes even death that occurred during the antifa/BLM protests. You think those protest organizers intended for that to happen? When protestors in Portland, OR barricaded people inside a police station and then set fire to it, that was something they'd conspired to do ahead of time?

Sauce for the goose is sauce for the other goose that identifies as a gander.

It wasn't a mob acting in the heat of the moment for many of them. It certainly wasn't for the Oath keepers and the Proud Boys. They had plans to disrupt democracy and the transition of power.

These were people invited to the White House and were told to go to the Capitol and fight. They brought guns and other weapons with them. They had people with guns across the river ready to supply them with firearms.

This was a deliberate act of insurrection for many of them and a lot of them said this on social media posts. Some of these people may have been tourists but a great many of them were traitors and should be punished appropriately.

But the people who really should be punished severely is Trump, Giuliani, Flynn, Jordan and others.

Skeptic Ginger 30th July 2021 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirtywick (Post 13553750)
Well, I guess we'll see. I think they've badly mishandled the Mueller hearings and the impeachment investigation, and they were ready to anoint Michael Cohen the next messiah when he came to talk, so they have a bit of unimpressive recent history in these public hearings in my opinion. But, maybe they'll take a different approach this time.

You can't blame the Democrats for any of that. Dump controlled everything from having Barr quash the Mueller report to pressuring the GOP controlled Senate with threats of primary-ing any legislator that faced reelection. And that's not to mention how many of them were already Dump cultists for the same reason: Dump cultists have a lot of votes. And Dump now controls the party.

RecoveringYuppy 30th July 2021 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by acbytesla (Post 13553802)
These were people invited to the White House and were told to go to the Capitol and fight.

Multiple people invited to the White House? Citation please.

varwoche 30th July 2021 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 13553705)
I'd settle for "an actionable plan to overthrow the government and/or assassinate members of the government".

<snip whataboutism>

Jan 6 was planned. It resulted in a violent attack on congress intended to overturn the election. Not merely actionable. Acted upon.

Just how much action do you require?

Bob001 30th July 2021 02:15 PM

Evidence is that Speaker Pelosi was right.
Quote:

After Republican Leader Kevin McCarthy this week decried the House’s new face mask requirement, Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) replied with a considered response: “He’s such a moron.”

Mean! But if the dunce cap fits …

Such an incendiary charge by Pelosi demands a fact check: Is McCarthy, in fact, a moron? Let’s weigh the evidence.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...ccarthy-moron/

dudalb 30th July 2021 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by varwoche (Post 13553815)
Jan 6 was planned. It resulted in a violent attack on congress intended to overturn the election. Not merely actionable. Acted upon.

Just how much action do you require?

No amount of proof will change this guys mind.
I think he is one of those whose only real regret is that the coup did not suceed.

smartcooky 30th July 2021 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy (Post 13553662)
Ziggurat has just defended himself but note that it should not be necessary to have asked. This was perfectly apparent from context provided by the quotes he replied to and by other things he said. Note that he acknowledged some level of conspiracy, "loons in the basement".

No! This is not mere "loons in the basement". Read what I posted earlier, and more importantly, read the links, especially the full content on the indictments.

These groups are NOT "loons in the basement".. they are competent, trained people who planned to start shooting and killing people on the day if they got the word from Trump, which they were expecting would come. They stashed arms outside the Capitol for that purpose.

https://www.wusa9.com/article/news/n...7-35c12f0426e5

They used those "loons in the basement" as useful idiotsfor cover and a distraction. Many of the were former military personnel, and they used combat tactics in an attempt to achieve their aims!

dudalb 30th July 2021 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smartcooky (Post 13553844)
No! This is not mere "loons in the basement". Read what I posted earlier, and more importantly, read the links, especially the full content on the indictments.



These groups are NOT "loons in the basement".. they are competent, trained people who planned to start shooting and killing people on the day if they got the word from Trump, which they were expecting would come. They stashed arms outside the Capitol for that purpose.

https://www.wusa9.com/article/news/n...7-35c12f0426e5

They used the "loons in the basemen" as cover and a distraction. Many of the were former military personnel, and they used combat tactics in an attempt to achieve their aims!

I have to disagree about the competent part. A major reason it failed was sheer ineptitude.


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