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-   -   Weapons, poll (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=357725)

bruto 27th March 2022 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaetan (Post 13768004)
We could start here in Canada to abolish money, weapons and borders then others countries will joint us and do the samething untill all countries abolish borders, money and weapons. It is just as simple as that.

Canada has a single border, which, though the longest in the world, has been demilitarized since 1818. And importantly, that border is not with Russia. To compare Canada's situation with that of other countries in the world is lunatic.

Little 10 Toes 27th March 2022 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaetan (Post 13768004)
We could start here in Canada to abolish money, weapons and borders then others countries will joint us and do the samething untill all countries abolish borders, money and weapons. It is just as simple as that.

No. No it's not "as simple as that".

wollery 27th March 2022 11:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaetan (Post 13768004)
We could start here in Canada to abolish money, weapons and borders then others countries will joint us and do the samething untill all countries abolish borders, money and weapons. It is just as simple as that.


Meanwhile, in the real world…

The Man 28th March 2022 07:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaetan (Post 13768004)
We could start here in Canada to abolish money, weapons and borders then others countries will joint us and do the samething untill all countries abolish borders, money and weapons. It is just as simple as that.

What happened to "You can get everything by trade those days"? What are you going to trade Canada and the US for their mutual border?

Crossbow 28th March 2022 07:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaetan (Post 13768004)
We could start here in Canada to abolish money, weapons and borders then others countries will joint us and do the samething untill all countries abolish borders, money and weapons. It is just as simple as that.

If you want to go to the Moon,

then build yourself a rocket and go to the Moon.

It is as simple as that.

Thermal 28th March 2022 08:21 AM

Let's just get rid of all those nasty thingys and sing kumbaya for ever and ever!

Carrot Flower King 28th March 2022 08:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer (Post 13767877)
Weed slasher, modern Aylesbury Bill Hook, vintage Aylesbury Billhook with Axe Back (which could be anything from 60 to 180 years old). I also regularly use a pitchfork & occasionally a scythe. Or to put it another way. Yeah, this^

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...0e23b8abe4.jpg

I used to be fond of a good Yorkshire billhook back in the day. Not to mention pick mattocks and wrecking bars and sledge hammers...

Dave Rogers 28th March 2022 08:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carrot Flower King (Post 13768419)
I used to be fond of a good Yorkshire billhook back in the day. Not to mention pick mattocks and wrecking bars and sledge hammers...

When I think of this thread, billhooks immediately come to mind, unless I'm mishearing.

Dave

bruto 28th March 2022 09:07 AM

I being more American think of corn knives. Poor folks in Gaetan's paradise will have to cut corn with their teeth.

Carrot Flower King 28th March 2022 09:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Rogers (Post 13768443)
When I think of this thread, billhooks immediately come to mind, unless I'm mishearing.

Dave

I'm sure that never, ever, not in the slightest at all occurred to either PJ or me...With our reputations?

The Don 28th March 2022 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaetan (Post 13764448)
Do you mean that the economic ambargo on Russia will kill more people?

No. I'm stating that famine has repeatedly been used as a weapon, that it's an effective one and that it has been used to kill far more people than weapons you're proposing to ban.

The Don 28th March 2022 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carrot Flower King (Post 13768419)
I used to be fond of a good Yorkshire billhook back in the day. Not to mention pick mattocks and wrecking bars and sledge hammers...

I've got one on a 4 foot ash handle. Goes through brambles and smallish trees like a hot knife through butter.

Gaetan 28th March 2022 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Little 10 Toes (Post 13768034)
No. No it's not "as simple as that".

Why not?

EaglePuncher 28th March 2022 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaetan (Post 13768496)
Why not?

How about you start making petitions to the government and tell us how that went?

The Man 28th March 2022 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaetan (Post 13768496)
Why not?

Simply put, it lacks any relation to real world governmental interactions, or just interpersonal interactions.

More specifically, first, Canada can do whatever the frick it wants with its border and there will still be the US boarder there. Second, other countries won't "joint" you as even Canada won't. Because there is nothing in it for them to do so and a crap load of inevitable hazards should they.

Again, What are you going, or even just willing, to trade Canada and the US for giving up their mutual border? I expect many are willing to fight, with whatever they can get there hands on, and die to keep it.

Crossbow 28th March 2022 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaetan (Post 13768496)
Why not?

If you have to ask such a question, then it is quite obvious that you do not understand just what it is that you are proposing.

sackett 28th March 2022 11:36 AM

I've read that the Mongols in Genghis's day used their stench as a weapon.

Doubt 28th March 2022 12:49 PM

Everything is a weapon. Most are not very effective. Once you get rid the very effective ones, the less effective ones become more important.

How do you plan to get rid of rocks? How about sticks?

bruto 28th March 2022 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doubt (Post 13768713)
Everything is a weapon. Most are not very effective. Once you get rid the very effective ones, the less effective ones become more important.

How do you plan to get rid of rocks? How about sticks?

The obvious answer (and one that might come close to the solutions found in other pie-in-sky threads in which everyone will enjoy perfect freedom except those who cheat) would be an unnamed enforcing agency. This agency would be possessed of devices (which we will redefine so they aren't weapons) with which they can, for example, cut off the hands of miscreants. No more rocks for you! And you'd better be careful how you use those teeth.

Gaetan 28th March 2022 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EaglePuncher (Post 13768518)
How about you start making petitions to the government and tell us how that went?

Good idea

bruto 28th March 2022 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaetan (Post 13768896)
Good idea

Don't forget that second part. Not much more you need to say until that part is fulfilled.

Manopolus 28th March 2022 07:12 PM

I hate to be "that guy," partly because I'm not a gun nut in the least (don't own one, don't want one).

...but here's the thing: literally every useful tool in the history of man can be used in some fashion as a weapon. Furthermore, preventing those who know how to MAKE weapons from owning such is pretty pointless. They aren't these mysterious things that can only be bought and sold with money. People do know how to make them, which makes the whole concept completely unenforceable as long as the base materials are available.

What, you gonna ban steel?

Gaetan 28th March 2022 07:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manopolus (Post 13768936)
I hate to be "that guy," partly because I'm not a gun nut in the least (don't own one, don't want one).

...but here's the thing: literally every useful tool in the history of man can be used in some fashion as a weapon. Furthermore, preventing those who know how to MAKE weapons from owning such is pretty pointless. They aren't these mysterious things that can only be bought and sold with money. People do know how to make them, which makes the whole concept completely unenforceable as long as the base materials are available.

What, you gonna ban steel?

You can kill someone with your hands but it is hard, what is easy like using guns makes more victimes.

Gaetan 28th March 2022 07:47 PM

Subject of the petition how do you like it?

1st point: Abolish money, you work for free and you benefit from goods and services for free, using money encourages people to be crooks, the more you charge for your work and the less you pay for the work of others the more you are rewarded, it encourages us to eat each other and it is unhealthy. We can keep it to trade with other countries until we all abolish it, but inside the country everything must be done without money.

2nd point: Let's get rid of all our weapons in Canada, other countries can have our goods through trade they don't need to use weapons to take them from us so we don't need them to defend ourselves. Wars for theft are a thing of the distant past, the latest wars like those in Vietnam, Korea, Afghanistan, Iraq, Ukraine were fought out of fear that the weapons of these countries were a threat.

3rd point: Let us abolish the borders of Canada, why be afraid that the poor come to eat with us?

arthwollipot 28th March 2022 08:50 PM

Great idea. Do it. I'll watch.

Little 10 Toes 28th March 2022 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaetan (Post 13768948)
Subject of the petition how do you like it?

1st point: Abolish money, you work for free and you benefit from goods and services for free, using money encourages people to be crooks, the more you charge for your work and the less you pay for the work of others the more you are rewarded, it encourages us to eat each other and it is unhealthy. We can keep it to trade with other countries until we all abolish it, but inside the country everything must be done without money.

2nd point: Let's get rid of all our weapons in Canada, other countries can have our goods through trade they don't need to use weapons to take them from us so we don't need them to defend ourselves. Wars for theft are a thing of the distant past, the latest wars like those in Vietnam, Korea, Afghanistan, Iraq, Ukraine were fought out of fear that the weapons of these countries were a threat.

3rd point: Let us abolish the borders of Canada, why be afraid that the poor come to eat with us?

Once again no.

You don't think things out do you?

Let me destroy item number one.

You have the following people: Prime Minister of Canada, nuclear physicist, nurse, actor, janitor, fire fighter, police officer, fast food employee, waiter/waitress, cook, chef, electronic engineer, ditch digger, park ranger, secondary school teacher, professor, football player, triathlete, musician, sandwich maker, landscaper, retiree, taxi cab driver, rancher, corn farmer, potato farmer, cotton farmer, agave farmer, rice farmer, video game designer, sailor, real estate developer, priest/rabbi/nun, meat processor, hazardous materials removal worker, coal miner, sewage technician, plumber, garbage collector, rendering technician, mechanic, bus driver, shoe salesman, retirement home worker, construction worker, oil drill worker, Dept/Bureau of Motor Vehicles customer service representative, insurance adjuster, carnival ride operator, disabled person, and someone who is always wrong.

Using your "plan", explain how each person's work value is determined.

jimbob 29th March 2022 12:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Don (Post 13768465)
I've got one on a 4 foot ash handle. Goes through brambles and smallish trees like a hot knife through butter.

Yup, I have no idea how old it is probably 1930s at the youngest.

Also a short handled billhook. Without the sharpened back. But also 80 years old at least.

bruto 29th March 2022 07:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaetan (Post 13768945)
You can kill someone with your hands but it is hard, what is easy like using guns makes more victimes.

Yes, but this is not what you have been saying. If you mean something other than "weapons" in general, then say what you mean.

There's a difference between saying you want world peace and claiming you have the formula for it.

Gaetan 29th March 2022 08:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Little 10 Toes (Post 13768992)
Once again no.
Using your "plan", explain how each person's work value is determined.

Your work has no value because you consider that the work of your neighbour has no value, you have to be fair. If you see a product in a store at 10$ and beside it free of charge, you take the product free of charge as anybody else, then you consider that the work of your neighbour has no value and to be fair your own work. Say the true and be fair.

Gaetan 29th March 2022 08:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bruto (Post 13769264)
Yes, but this is not what you have been saying. If you mean something other than "weapons" in general, then say what you mean.

There's a difference between saying you want world peace and claiming you have the formula for it.

You might be confused, when i say weapons i talk about firearms, bombs made for the goal to make easy to kill people, not something as a knife to cut something or that has others purpose.

Crossbow 29th March 2022 09:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaetan (Post 13769324)
You might be confused, when i say weapons i talk about firearms, bombs made for the goal to make easy to kill people, not something as a knife to cut something or that has others purpose.

Well at least you finally got around to clarifying this one point.

bruto 29th March 2022 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaetan (Post 13769324)
You might be confused, when i say weapons i talk about firearms, bombs made for the goal to make easy to kill people, not something as a knife to cut something or that has others purpose.

It is not my confusion that urges you to make your statements more specific. You speak in broad generalities and lax definitions, often with grammatical lapses that increase the confusion, and that is your fault, not that of others.

Now you have made a start. Thank you for that. You are still in fantasy-land as to execution, but we can, I presume, cease arguing about kitchen knives and cricket bats.

So now all you have to do is figure out even a remotely feasible plan whereby the potential combatants of the world all give up their arms at the same time, trusting that their enemies will do the same.

For starters, I think anyone who would believe Putin would suddenly change his established behavior and honor any agreement to disarm or even to abstain from aggression would be an utter fool, and as long as such persons remain in positions of power, your dream will be an impossible one.

Before a plan like yours can be considered even crazily optimistically close to realism, you would need to figure out how to make good faith operate in the world of international relations. Right now we have territorial aggressors bombing hospitals and refugees, tyrants oppressing starving populations, other tyrants engaging in genocide and forced migration, others bombing their dissidents with poison gas, others persecuting and exiling their religious rivals, others engaging in piracy and kleptocracy, and on and on. You yourself accuse the United States government of all manner of sins, yet you seem to ignore that when you speak of solutions.

And at the local level, we have drug lords assassinating those who get in their way, religious nuts opening fire on those they hate for no good reason, conspiracy quacks advocating murder and the suppression of democracy, gangs killing each other over imagined slights and nonexistent boundaries, SEnators and congresscritters openly calling for their political opponents to be disenfranchised, imprisoned, and even murdered, crazed militias preparing for mass executions.

A large part of this all is dependent on the belief in lies, false conspiracies, false ideas, stupid generalizations, religions, the gullible swallowing of propaganda. You won't fix the results until you can fix the causes.

We all want world peace. Saying that is better than saying we don't but it's not saying much really.

The Man 29th March 2022 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaetan (Post 13769308)
Your work has no value because you consider that the work of your neighbour has no value, you have to be fair. If you see a product in a store at 10$ and beside it free of charge, you take the product free of charge as anybody else, then you consider that the work of your neighbour has no value and to be fair your own work. Say the true and be fair.

As usual you try to posit your own distain for the work of others onto others.

I value the work of my neighbors, coworkers and people I help keep employed. I leave things for free to the people that need them, I pay higher prices for quality service and products. I do most of my own work myself.

Evidently it is merely your work that has no value as you don't value the work of others, while others do. Heck, some may even value your work. Are you paid for your work? If others do value your work then in fairness you must value the work of others. Be true, be fair.

The Man 29th March 2022 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaetan (Post 13769324)
You might be confused, when i say weapons i talk about firearms, bombs made for the goal to make easy to kill people, not something as a knife to cut something or that has others purpose.

Guns have "others purpose", hunting. Bombs have "others purpose", demolition, mining, ect... For much of history cutting implements were the primary weapons and killed multitudes.

jimbob 29th March 2022 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Man (Post 13769387)
Guns have "others purpose", hunting. Bombs have "others purpose", demolition, mining, ect... For much of history cutting implements were the primary weapons and killed multitudes.

Riffing on this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Cannae

Quote:

Polybius writes that of the Roman and allied infantry, 70,000 were killed, 10,000 captured, and "perhaps" 3,000 survived. He also reports that of the 6,000 Roman and allied cavalry, only 370 survived.[75]

Gaetan 29th March 2022 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bruto (Post 13769374)
So now all you have to do is figure out even a remotely feasible plan whereby the potential combatants of the world all give up their arms at the same time, trusting that their enemies will do the same.

If a country is disarmed it is not a threat to other countries, why would they attact them when they could have what they want through trade.

Gaetan 29th March 2022 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Man (Post 13769387)
Guns have "others purpose", hunting. Bombs have "others purpose", demolition, mining, ect... For much of history cutting implements were the primary weapons and killed multitudes.

These weapons are not made for the purpose to ease the killing of people. I talk about weapons made as a special use to do that.

bruto 29th March 2022 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaetan (Post 13769430)
If a country is disarmed it is not a threat to other countries, why would they attact them when they could have what they want through trade.

For the abundantly obvious reason that motivates the countries that are doing it right at this very moment and always have, for political power and territory and resources. Of course they use perceived and imaginary threats, but Viet Nam did not threaten the US, nor did Czechoslovakia threaten Germany, nor did Manchuria threaten Japan, nor does Ukraine threaten Russia, nor did Kuwait threaten Iraq. Taiwan does not threaten China, but I doubt that will help them much in the long run.

History is full of instances where a well armed nation finds it easier to invade for its oil and rubber and lebensraum than to pay for them.

I see from your response to The Man that you're walking back the weapons a bit more. If hunting weapons are not in your weapon eradication program you're going to have limited success in stopping gun crimes. Note that I quite approve of partial measures here, and that's quite all right. But you need to be aware of what you're saying. Fewer people will shoot each other, but that's not to say none will.

Little 10 Toes 29th March 2022 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaetan (Post 13769308)
Your work has no value because you consider that the work of your neighbour has no value, you have to be fair. If you see a product in a store at 10$ and beside it free of charge, you take the product free of charge as anybody else, then you consider that the work of your neighbour has no value and to be fair your own work. Say the true and be fair.

WHOA! Full stop. You do not put words in my mouth/post.

My work does have value. My neighbor's work has value. Just because I cannot play an instrument and my neighbor can't fix computers doesn't mean that we don't value each other's work.

Addressing the second part of your post, if there are two products that are exactly the same, yes I would take the free one. I am conserving my resources. However, if there are two products made by two different manufactuers, then it's different. If I like Light Beer #1 and don't like Light Beer #2, I will not pick up free Light Beer #2. If Pasta Sauce #1 has mushrooms and sausage, but Pasta Sauce #2 has only sausage, I'm getting Pasta Sauce #1.

Edit: Please explain why the free of charge product is free.

Once again your post is wrong. Please answer my question.

You have the following people: Prime Minister of Canada, nuclear physicist, nurse, actor, janitor, fire fighter, police officer, fast food employee, waiter/waitress, cook, chef, electronic engineer, ditch digger, park ranger, secondary school teacher, professor, football player, triathlete, musician, sandwich maker, landscaper, retiree, taxi cab driver, rancher, corn farmer, potato farmer, cotton farmer, agave farmer, rice farmer, video game designer, sailor, real estate developer, priest/rabbi/nun, meat processor, hazardous materials removal worker, coal miner, sewage technician, plumber, garbage collector, rendering technician, mechanic, bus driver, shoe salesman, retirement home worker, construction worker, oil drill worker, Dept/Bureau of Motor Vehicles customer service representative, insurance adjuster, carnival ride operator, disabled person, and someone who is always wrong.

Using your "plan", explain how each person's work value is determined.

The Man 29th March 2022 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaetan (Post 13769438)
These weapons are not made for the purpose to ease the killing of people. I talk about weapons made as a special use to do that.

As noted before not all guns and bombs are made to exclusively kill people. Yet even those that aren't can quite easily. A knife is essentially a knife, the Scottish dirk often carries ones eating fork and knife along with what is almost like a Roman short sword. Lacking the sword, in battle, I have no doubt one would have used the others as much as possible.


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