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-   -   Weapons, poll (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=357725)

catsmate 31st March 2022 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge (Post 13769917)
This is one of Gaetan's repeated flights of nonsense. He claims that your taking the $0.00 item proves you don't value the work of the producer. No. You assume the gift is made for a reason and everyone in the supply chain got paid. The important question is why is it free. If, as Gaetan seems to imagine, the producer does not get paid then the person who does not value their work is the one who set the price, not the customer who takes it.

The fundamental problem with Gaetan's utopia is that it depends on everyone cooperating when all motivation to do so is removed and when every impediment to cheating is similarly removed.

I note that people who have all the material wealth they could wish for do not generally volunteer to collect trash or scrub hospital floors to help out through some sense of fairness. I mean they might altruistically volunteer to pay someone else to do it, but that can't happen in a world with no money. I wonder if Gaetan thinks they would start to do so if he became emperor of Canada.

Today I collected a number of pens, notebooks, mugs, water bottles, vacuum flasks, mice, thumbdrives, USB cables and chargers, LED torches, chocolates at cetera. To an estimated value of 6-800 Euro, for free. The distributors of said swag were quite happy for me to do this, given it was marketing material to promote their various businesses.

Gaetan 31st March 2022 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jond (Post 13771291)
You are utterly and entirely ill informed and very very wrong. I have a Ukrainian mother and daughter living with me now, for as long as they need to be here. We just finished a video chat with her husband who had to remain behind to fight. I can absolutely positively guarantee you that the vast majority of the Ukrainian population does not want to live under Russian control. And that was before the genocidal maniac Putin invaded. Everything you have posted is as wrong as wrong can be. Grow up.

The misery in this country could have been avoided if their government was not corrupted by money. All he had to say is that this country will remain neutral and will not be a threat to Russia by getting rid of its weapons.

arthwollipot 31st March 2022 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaetan (Post 13771613)
The misery in this country could have been avoided if their government was not corrupted by money. All he had to say is that this country will remain neutral and will not be a threat to Russia by getting rid of its weapons.

And then what would stop Russia from just walking in and taking everything?

Gaetan 31st March 2022 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arthwollipot (Post 13771617)
And then what would stop Russia from just walking in and taking everything?

Because it doesn't make sence, that country belongs to people who live there, the russian government won't take a Ukrainian from his appartment and put a russian there, russian live in their country and ukrainians live in his country, this is not as the past where acadians were deported in New Orleans

arthwollipot 31st March 2022 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaetan (Post 13771623)
Because it doesn't make sence, that country belongs to people who live there, the russian government won't take a Ukrainian from his appartment and put a russian there, russian live in their country and ukrainians live in his country, this is not as the past where acadians were deported in New Orleans

Why not? They've done it before.

Gaetan 31st March 2022 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arthwollipot (Post 13771626)
Why not? They've done it before.

prove it

jond 31st March 2022 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaetan (Post 13771613)
The misery in this country could have been avoided if their government was not corrupted by money. All he had to say is that this country will remain neutral and will not be a threat to Russia by getting rid of its weapons.

Absolute rubbish. You are utterly wrong.

arthwollipot 31st March 2022 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaetan (Post 13771627)
prove it

I already did.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arthwollipot (Post 13767376)


Gaetan 31st March 2022 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jond (Post 13771630)
Absolute rubbish. You are utterly wrong.

no it is the true, that Zelinski have investment in panama paper it is well know, he is corrupted, he suspended political partys, he run his country as a terrorist.

jond 31st March 2022 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaetan (Post 13771645)
no it is the true, that Zelinski have investment in panama paper it is well know, he is corrupted, he suspended political partys, he run his country as a terrorist.

Nope. The whole reason Putin invaded is because he doesnít believe Ukraine should exist as a separate country. It all goes back to Ukraine overthrowing Putinís stooge in 2014. Zelensky has, as had his predecessor, been actively trying to align with Europe more than Russia. Which is what the people of Ukraine want. Putinís claim that Stalin was generous to Ukraine is absurd, as Arthwollipotís link will show you. Putin wants to finish the job that Stalin began.

arthwollipot 31st March 2022 06:13 PM

Since I'm pretty sure Gaetan isn't going to click that link and read about it, I'll summarise it:

In 1932 and 1933 there was a famine in the Soviet Union. So the Soviets said "That's okay, we'll just take all of Ukraine's food." And they went in and took it. All of it. All of the markets, all of the farms, all of the granaries - all were emptied and the stolen food was shipped back to Russia. Some 5 million Ukrainians starved to death. Russians were sent in to occupy the now-vacant housing, which is how Russian enclaves were created in Ukraine in the first place.

Holodomor is a Ukrainian word that means "to kill by starvation".

Yeah, this is one reason why Ukrainians really do not like the Russians.

Gaetan 31st March 2022 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arthwollipot (Post 13771633)
I already did.

Some people said that Stalin committed a genocide when others say not. I don't know but if it was intentionnal it was because Stalin thought that ukraine would be threat to his regime. He could think that Ukrainians would take arms against him. Then what i say remain true, if you want to live in peace get rid of arms, get rid of threat against other countries you won't be bother.

arthwollipot 31st March 2022 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaetan (Post 13771668)
Some people said that Stalin committed a genocide when others say not. I don't know but if it was intentionnal it was because Stalin thought that ukraine would be threat to his regime. He could think that Ukrainians would take arms against him. Then what i say remain true, if you want to live in peace get rid of arms, get rid of threat against other countries you won't be bother.

Ukraine was a Soviet Socialist Republic at the time. Stalin already had it. Its armed forces were Soviet. Its government was Soviet. Its people were citizens of the Soviet Union. They were no threat.

Gaetan 31st March 2022 08:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arthwollipot (Post 13771680)
Ukraine was a Soviet Socialist Republic at the time. Stalin already had it. Its armed forces were Soviet. Its government was Soviet. Its people were citizens of the Soviet Union. They were no threat.

this is not the conclusion we cold make with the iink you put

Little 10 Toes 31st March 2022 11:14 PM

Gaetan, why do you not answer my request? It is because you realize your idea does not pass any scrutinization?

Please explain why the free of charge product is free.

bruto 31st March 2022 11:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaetan (Post 13771723)
this is not the conclusion we cold make with the iink you put

What part of that article confuses you? Are you unsure of whether Ukraine was a part of the Soviet Union at the time of the holodomor?

In your earlier post about the Acadians being deported "in" New Orleans, was that a glitch in language? You do, I hope, realize they were deported "in" Nova Scotia.

arthwollipot 31st March 2022 11:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaetan (Post 13771723)
this is not the conclusion we cold make with the iink you put

I think you didn't read it properly, because there is nothing in there that suggests that the Soviet Union saw Ukraine as a threat. Just as a source of food.

wollery 1st April 2022 07:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaetan (Post 13771668)
Some people said that Stalin committed a genocide when others say not. I don't know but if it was intentionnal it was because Stalin thought that ukraine would be threat to his regime. He could think that Ukrainians would take arms against him. Then what i say remain true, if you want to live in peace get rid of arms, get rid of threat against other countries you won't be bother.

If what you say is true, then all Putin has to do to guarantee peace, and ensure that Ukraine isn't a threat is to completely disarm Russia.

Why aren't you advocating for Russian disarmament to solve this problem?

catsmate 1st April 2022 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge (Post 13771412)
Hook?
Which side?
;)

Auto-mistake strikes again.:(
One of the dockers who fought the fascists.

Little 10 Toes 1st April 2022 01:58 PM

and yet you run away when asked direct questions? Why is that?

Please explain why the free of charge product is free.

eerok 2nd April 2022 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaetan (Post 13772356)
Criminals came to power because of inequalities and social injustices, to get rid of that you have to get rid of money, to do what i propose.

Unfortunately in the case of countries like Russia, criminals in power are what they've come to expect and accept. Putin has already taken the money, and now he wants his idea of greatness. He wants to rule the old territories of Russia, including Ukraine, and he's willing to kill all the innocents he needs in order to get it, all for the sake of his ego.

Your childish philosophies have no place in the real world, where people are dying. Putin is a war criminal, and you make excuses for Russia's aggression.

sarge 3rd April 2022 04:44 AM

Mod WarningStay on-topic, please
Responding to this mod box in thread will be off topic Posted By:sarge

varwoche 3rd April 2022 06:15 AM

You'll have to pry my zamburak from my camel's cold, dead humps.

Craig4 3rd April 2022 06:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaetan (Post 13771668)
Some people said that Stalin committed a genocide when others say not. I don't know but if it was intentionnal it was because Stalin thought that ukraine would be threat to his regime. He could think that Ukrainians would take arms against him. Then what i say remain true, if you want to live in peace get rid of arms, get rid of threat against other countries you won't be bother.

If it weren't for Ukrainian arms and the arms NATO and other democracies are sending, the Russians would be at the Polish border by now. The only thing stopping the Russians are the arms the Ukrainians have. If Russians don't want to be killed by Ukrainians, all they have to do is leave.

Dave Rogers 3rd April 2022 08:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaetan (Post 13771668)
Some people said that Stalin committed a genocide when others say not. I don't know but if it was intentionnal it was because Stalin thought that ukraine would be threat to his regime. He could think that Ukrainians would take arms against him.

So you're saying it was Ukraine's fault because, even though they didn't have any weapons, Stalin thought they might get some one day? Because if "being the sort of person Stalin wouldn't trust" is a crime, everyone who ever lived is guilty.

Dave

bruto 3rd April 2022 10:52 AM

So the argument seems to be that the genocidal part of Stalin's enormous historic crime was peripheral to his monstrous overreaction to perceived threat. The horror was perpetrated on Ukraine, and it is just bad luck (and their own fault no doubt) that Ukraine happened to be full of Ukrainians.

This is the "don't take it personally, it's just business" argument uttered by the mafia hitman before he blows your head off, or the sheriff as he throws your furniture out on the street.

The Man 3rd April 2022 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bruto (Post 13769795)
No doubt you could cut your bread with a misericorde as easily as I've cut branches with a Swiss bayonet. And useful as is a machete for hacking through the puckerbrush, one cannot forget the Mau Mau of old or the militias of today. Still, I think it reasonable to suggest that weapons which lack reasonable alternative functions would be better off gone even if the result is not perfect. You can kill with a deer rifle, but you do not need a machine gun to hunt deer, and you can blow up a building with fertilizer but you can't enrich your field with land mines.

So I'll grant that much to Gaetan. Arms control is good. Peace is good. So, some say, is motherhood, apple pie, baseball, a chicken in every pot, and some might go so far as to include a five cent cigar. We get that part. Now, however, our sage philosopher of the good and holy must start thinking wisely about the practicalities of getting there. This, I'm afraid, has not yet occurred, and I do not harbor great confidence that it shall.

Yep, arms control and peace are good, but one gets neither by being just cartoon scale unrealistic.

The Man 3rd April 2022 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaetan (Post 13770999)
This is a lie but if it would be true it would'nt bother the people who live there, you can eliminate the borders of Canada it doesn't bother me.

You are nether the entirety of Canada nor of the Ukraine. Evidently it bothers some as they are fighting against it.

arthwollipot 3rd April 2022 07:16 PM

I for one look forward to Gaetan's Utopia where nobody is aggressive towards everyone else, there are no weapons of any kind anywhere, and everybody works for free because gosh darn it's the nice thing to do.

I eagerly anticipate Gaetan bringing this ideal to reality. I hope it's soon.

xjx388 4th April 2022 12:05 PM

Mod WarningSeveral posts sent to AAH for being off-topic. This thread is specifically about abandoning weapons. There are other threads about everything being free. Consider this a more stern warning to please keep to the topic of the thread.
Responding to this mod box in thread will be off topic Posted By:xjx388

Crossbow 6th April 2022 06:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaetan (Post 13771668)
Some people said that Stalin committed a genocide when others say not. I don't know but if it was intentionnal it was because Stalin thought that ukraine would be threat to his regime. He could think that Ukrainians would take arms against him. Then what i say remain true, if you want to live in peace get rid of arms, get rid of threat against other countries you won't be bother.

I do hope that the recent discoveries of large number of helpless Ukrainians who have been murdered by Russians has clearly shown you that your contention that peace can be obtained by getting rid of weapons is a contention that is very, very wrong.

bruto 6th April 2022 02:53 PM

Even if the goal of getting rid of arms and getting rid of threats is a good one and even if it is true that doing so would bring lasting peace etc. etc. saying this is essentially meaningless.

Here's an idea. Let's solve the energy crisis by finding cheap new renewable fuel and doing away with nasty old fossil fuel! There, I have come up with a genius idea, everyone pat me on the back and tell me how right I am. Now that I've done the heavy lifting of ideas, I'll let some other suckers do the boring work of actually figuring out how to make it happen.

Gaetan 9th April 2022 06:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crossbow (Post 13776458)
I do hope that the recent discoveries of large number of helpless Ukrainians who have been murdered by Russians has clearly shown you that your contention that peace can be obtained by getting rid of weapons is a contention that is very, very wrong.

Threat and fear are the reason of war in 2022 and in the previous 100 years. Arms are a threat for the survival of humanity not the opposite.

bruto 9th April 2022 07:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaetan (Post 13779437)
Threat and fear are the reason of war in 2022 and in the previous 100 years. Arms are a threat for the survival of humanity not the opposite.

No doubt the Russians are performing a service to humanity, because they were so so afraid that Ukraine would bomb their hospitals and assassinate their citizens if they didn't do it first. No doubt, in your odd calculations, with the nuclear weapons they gave up in return for a guarantee from Russia that they would never do exactly what they are doing.

Of course if you want to disarm the world one way to do it is to let the biggest, greediest country with the most megalomaniacal dictator just take over everything. Once it's all done, they won't need any more weapons. The threat is contained, and of course since the world dictator is sure to be a sane and rational humanitarian, the rumor of paranoid fantasies decreed to have been fake news all along, he'll beat them all into plowshares. I think an argument might be found against this plan, but it might be too subtle for you to grasp.

eerok 9th April 2022 07:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaetan (Post 13779437)
Threat and fear are the reason of war in 2022 and in the previous 100 years. Arms are a threat for the survival of humanity not the opposite.

Utter nonsense. It was Putin's ego and ambition that caused him to invade Ukraine, and if they hadn't fought back, they would've lost their country.

Gaetan 9th April 2022 07:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eerok (Post 13779469)
Utter nonsense. It was Putin's ego and ambition that caused him to invade Ukraine, and if they hadn't fought back, they would've lost their country.

He invate Ukraine because Zelinski planned to have missiles, to be in NATO and to have atome bomb and a threat close to Russia.

trustbutverify 9th April 2022 07:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaetan (Post 13779476)
He invate Ukraine because Zelinski planned to have missiles, to be in NATO and to have atome bomb and a threat close to Russia.

Drivel.

bruto 9th April 2022 08:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaetan (Post 13779476)
He invate Ukraine because Zelinski planned to have missiles, to be in NATO and to have atome bomb and a threat close to Russia.

What utter ********. Ukraine was once one of the biggest nuclear powers on earth. They signed on to the NPT, and sent their nuclear warheads back to Russia. Learn some history. Or at least try to learn something!

catsmate 9th April 2022 08:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bruto (Post 13779488)
What utter ********. Ukraine was once one of the biggest nuclear powers on earth. They signed on to the NPT, and sent their nuclear warheads back to Russia. Learn some history. Or at least try to learn something!

A terrible mistake on their part as subsequent events have shown.
Events that are contributing to the demise of the NPT.

sackett 9th April 2022 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaetan (Post 13779476)
He invate Ukraine because Zelinski planned to have missiles, to be in NATO and to have atome bomb and a threat close to Russia.

You're not very good at this.


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