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-   -   Continuation Cancel culture IRL Part 2 (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=354396)

SuburbanTurkey 29th September 2021 06:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue (Post 13613877)
Oh my God are we seriously having the "It's totally unreasonable (and not... TRUE SKEPTIC(TM)) to assume that just because someone says they are a Nazi that they are actually a Nazi" argument YET ******* AGAIN.

It's hard to gauge, but I generally get the impression that these hilariously obtuse arguments simply don't have the sway they used to. Even people who might be squeamish about more overt types of antifascism increasingly recognize that these defense of fascists in the name of civility and free speech are moronic and/or extremely misguided.

Pearl clutching doesn't work like it used to, at least to my estimation.

Darat 29th September 2021 06:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue (Post 13613877)
Oh my God are we seriously having the "It's totally unreasonable (and not... TRUE SKEPTIC(TM)) to assume that just because someone says they are a Nazi that they are actually a Nazi" argument YET ******* AGAIN.

Yep.

Apparently if you say a Nazi is a bad person you are going to start shooting grannies for telling their grandson they are the most handsome kid in the world.

SuburbanTurkey 29th September 2021 06:32 AM

Interesting piece, and some refreshing honesty here for someone who has a job on legacy media.

Quote:

"'Great replacement theory' gets people killed and yet you now have Tucker Carlson defending it, promoting it, mainstreaming it. And elected Republicans are now following in his footsteps."

My deep dive into 'great replacement theory.'
https://twitter.com/mehdirhasan/stat...09509711130630

We don't have to pretend we don't know how this kind of rhetoric ends. Carlson and his fans are ethnonationalists and fascists and they are dangerous. Cancelling them, if possible, seems like an incredibly positive solution. More likely a good bit of blood is going to be spilt first, but such are the wages for ignoring the dangers of an increasingly reactionary and radicalized right in this country.

The fascist threat in this country (and abroad) is a 'all hands on deck' emergency. Those downplaying the danger they face are carrying water for those that desire to commit genocide, and it is becoming increasingly noncredible that they don't know it the longer this goes on.

d4m10n 29th September 2021 06:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smartcooky (Post 13613654)
So, that will be no then

Not exactly, no.

You seem to want someone sacked on the word of a random person on the street, someone who didn't say whether he was assenting to a paraphrased version or an exact quotation. This is witch hunt mentality, no time to stop and get the facts straight.

The idea of people wanting other people to stay in their own neighborhoods isn't unusual or necessarily related to racial animus. In the sq. mi. where I live we've two distinct neighborhoods, Trails (Original) and Trails North. They've got different neighborhood associations and amenities, and sometimes people get in a tizzy when folks go from one to the other to use facilities which their HOA doesn't support or maintain. I doubt anyone would say "back to your hood" (hardly anyone around here listens to Pooh Shiesty) but the sentiment is basically the same.

ponderingturtle 29th September 2021 06:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle (Post 13613286)
Says the person comparing others to nazis.

But of course never calls the white supremacists, holocaust deniers and the like nazis for some reason.

Emily's Cat 29th September 2021 09:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darat (Post 13613799)
What a load of garbage. There are plenty of people out there in the UK and the USA that self-identify as Nazis, that want to carry on the policies that the Nazis have always promulgated.

Sure. How do you propose to limit the torches and pitchforks to ONLY self-declared nazis?

Are there other beliefs that you find odious enough to advocate for extrajudicial punishments?

Emily's Cat 29th September 2021 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey (Post 13613897)
Interesting piece, and some refreshing honesty here for someone who has a job on legacy media.



https://twitter.com/mehdirhasan/stat...09509711130630

We don't have to pretend we don't know how this kind of rhetoric ends. Carlson and his fans are ethnonationalists and fascists and they are dangerous. Cancelling them, if possible, seems like an incredibly positive solution. More likely a good bit of blood is going to be spilt first, but such are the wages for ignoring the dangers of an increasingly reactionary and radicalized right in this country.

The fascist threat in this country (and abroad) is a 'all hands on deck' emergency. Those downplaying the danger they face are carrying water for those that desire to commit genocide, and it is becoming increasingly noncredible that they don't know it the longer this goes on.

Are you aware that you're advocating for civil war and murder?

Seriously, how blind can a person be to not understand that the approach their preaching is completely and utterly fascist in nature?

SuburbanTurkey 29th September 2021 09:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emily's Cat (Post 13614116)
Are you aware that you're advocating for civil war and murder?

Seriously, how blind can a person be to not understand that the approach their preaching is completely and utterly fascist in nature?

Since you're so sharp at reading murderous intent in a statement, what do you make of Tucker Carlson preaching that ethnic replacement is a dire threat to this country?

JoeMorgue 29th September 2021 09:34 AM

"You want to give rid of Fascists? You know who else wants to get rid of people? That's right Fascists! Which makes you a Fascists!" is such a stupid argument.

Everyone who doesn't understand the problem of the "Paradox of Tolerance" get out of both the discussion and the society please.

//ETA: And totally unrelated but **** "Fascists" being such a goddamn hard word to spell over and over...

SuburbanTurkey 29th September 2021 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue (Post 13614126)
"You want to give rid of Fascists? You know who else wants to get rid of people? That's right Fascists! Which makes you a Fascists!" is such a stupid argument.

Everyone who doesn't understand the problem of the "Paradox of Tolerance" get out of both the discussion and the society please.

//ETA: And totally unrelated but **** "Fascists" being such a goddamn hard word to spell over and over...

To be fair, doing nothing while this country slips into fascism would be very orderly. Sure, there would be state and political violence at mass scale, but it would be organized and only happen to those that broke the rules. After a while you wouldn't even notice the things you lost.

Doing anything to stop this would be awfully noisy and chaotic, and we can't have that.

tyr_13 29th September 2021 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue (Post 13614126)
"You want to give rid of Fascists? You know who else wants to get rid of people? That's right Fascists! Which makes you a Fascists!" is such a stupid argument.

Everyone who doesn't understand the problem of the "Paradox of Tolerance" get out of both the discussion and the society please.

//ETA: And totally unrelated but **** "Fascists" being such a goddamn hard word to spell over and over...

It's even dumber than that.

'You can't use the same freedoms the fascists use in order to oppose the fascists which is what I'm using to oppose you right now, because that could lead to murder which the fascists have already been doing.'

It's hypocrisy2 in addition to being wrong2.

Emily's Cat 29th September 2021 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey (Post 13614121)
Since you're so sharp at reading murderous intent in a statement, what do you make of Tucker Carlson preaching that ethnic replacement is a dire threat to this country?

You're going to have to provide a link with full context before I can opine in any way.

Emily's Cat 29th September 2021 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyr_13 (Post 13614164)
It's even dumber than that.

'You can't use the same freedoms the fascists use in order to oppose the fascists which is what I'm using to oppose you right now, because that could lead to murder which the fascists have already been doing.'

It's hypocrisy2 in addition to being wrong2.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

If the fascists are already murdering people, then they are criminals and should be treated as such.

Murdering them in retaliation doesn't make you better, it just makes you a murderer too.

SuburbanTurkey 29th September 2021 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emily's Cat (Post 13614179)
Two wrongs don't make a right.

If the fascists are already murdering people, then they are criminals and should be treated as such.

Murdering them in retaliation doesn't make you better, it just makes you a murderer too.

Yeah, that sounds bad. Maybe us good people should decide we don't want to associate with such bad actors. Maybe we should identify and ostracize all these people wanting to commit political based murders. Probably be a good idea to raise a stink whenever some ghoul went of TV advocating a policy of ethnic cleansing.

lobosrul5 29th September 2021 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emily's Cat (Post 13614179)
Two wrongs don't make a right.

If the fascists are already murdering people, then they are criminals and should be treated as such.

Murdering them in retaliation doesn't make you better, it just makes you a murderer too.

You'll need to provide a link showing where murdering fascists is being suggested as a solution. I just haven't seen it here.

JoeMorgue 29th September 2021 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emily's Cat (Post 13614179)
Two wrongs don't make a right.

Oh ah... the rain in Spain falls mainly on the plans. A stitch in time saves 9. A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. A watched pot never boils.

Stopping a wrong is not wrong, so you don't have to factor it into some thought terminating truism.

JoeMorgue 29th September 2021 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyr_13 (Post 13614164)
It's even dumber than that.

'You can't use the same freedoms the fascists use in order to oppose the fascists which is what I'm using to oppose you right now, because that could lead to murder which the fascists have already been doing.'

It's hypocrisy2 in addition to being wrong2.

Not to beat this drum yet again but this also sounds a lot like the "I can't ignore you engaging the troll, so you have to ignore the troll" thing which I can't stand.

This fits in well with my observation that among this... type of people it's seen as better to have no standards (intellectual, moral, ethical, legal, whatever) then it is have standards and commit the Cardinal Sin of not living up to a 100% strawman, super-literal, no accounting for context version of them.

Here's how their thought process seems to works.

1. Someone tells them anything. This triggers the "How dare you tell me what to think!" subroutine. The idea that someone else has given them information they don't have offends them on a deep level and it drives them crazy. So much of their personal identity is wrapped up in "thinking for themselves" that they have started to actively rejected external information.

2. They immediately start looking for reasons the other person is a "hypocrite." And the way they do this is take the person's values, create a hyper-strawman version of them, find an incident where the person didn't live up to that version of their "standards.

For instance. AOC is actually pretty poor for a member of Congress, but she does make a halfway decent living, drives a fairly nice car, stuff like that. I mean just living in DC is goddamn expensive so I'm sure on a literal level she does throw around more money than average. But AOC is pretty far on the Left and speaks out a lot on class and wage disparity and the ultrawealthy. So the fact that AOC drives a Tesla means she's a... HYPOCRITE while a Republican Congressman worth many, many times more isn't. She is demonized for having standards. If you don't have standards you can never be a hypocrite, never be pretentious, never have to be taken down a peg, can't ever be "not as smart as you think you are" and all those other faults that these people focus on. The only sin you can commit to these people is aiming high and not making it. Wallow in the gutter and you can never let anyone down.

Now me, I operate much more on the "The pot can call the kettle black and the kettle can still be black" side of things. Hypocrisy is certainly an annoying personal trait but it doesn't override actual facts. Not matter the pot and kettles opinion of each other's blackness the RGB and Luminosity values of said pot and said kettle are verifiable facts that exist indendenatly. If I point a DataColor ColorReader at the pot and it returns an RGB value of #000000 the pot is black and the kettle's opinion is no longer needed or matters. The pot, the kettle, or anyone else can be hypocritical about the color of the pot or kettle they want, the facts don't change.

A person who says global warming is a problem and drives a nice car is STILL ******* CORRECT THAT GLOBAL WARMING IS A PROBLEM. Class Disparage isn't not a thing just because AOC doesn't live in a cardboard box and take the bus.

This is why discussions with them always have to take place in some fantasy world they are making up. They never want to discuss events as they actually happened but alternate timelines they are making up in the brain where they can control all the variables.

That's why we have a dozen threads at random point on this board where there's one person who on top of a hill going "If you ignore all the reasons I'm wrong and judge my argument solely on my alternative universe version of events then you'll have to admit I'm right."

Darat 29th September 2021 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emily's Cat (Post 13614113)
Sure. How do you propose to limit the torches and pitchforks to ONLY self-declared nazis?

Are there other beliefs that you find odious enough to advocate for extrajudicial punishments?

Extrajudicial? What on earth are you getting confused about now?

Darat 29th September 2021 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emily's Cat (Post 13614116)
Are you aware that you're advocating for civil war and murder?

Seriously, how blind can a person be to not understand that the approach their preaching is completely and utterly fascist in nature?

Nope that is what anyone saying they are a Nazi is advocating for, that is why it should be illegal to be a Nazi, it is like any other terrorist ideology.

It is not being fascist to resist those trying to murder your fellow citizens.

JoeMorgue 29th September 2021 11:01 AM

Again one day, God willing, I will find a woman who loves me as much as Internet Free Speech Advocates love Nazis.

You will get fewer Free Speech Advocates to run screeching out of the woodwork at you if you actually go "I'm against Free Speech" then you will if you are against Nazis.

JoeMorgue 29th September 2021 11:04 AM

This is like someone going "Just because he calls himself a Rapist doesn't mean he rapes people."

Yes it does. WORDS MEAN THINGS.

smartcooky 29th September 2021 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey (Post 13613796)
I'm sure the cancel culture pundits will be along any time now to condemn these racist and censorious groups going around trying to mass purge books from public schools:



https://www.thedailybeast.com/far-ri...luther-king-jr

I predict crickets, or mealy mouthed platitudes about fairness.

smartcooky 29th September 2021 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue (Post 13613877)
Oh my God are we seriously having the "It's totally unreasonable (and not... TRUE SKEPTIC(TM)) to assume that just because someone says they are a Nazi that they are actually a Nazi" argument YET ******* AGAIN.

Yup.

As long as you have the enablers, the ostriches with their heads buried in the sand, the supporters of "the marketplace of ideas" and the "eVerYone ShoULd GeT a FaIr HeaRiNG" crowd, and those who invoke Torquemada every time their own arguments tank, then you will get this argument.

lobosrul5 29th September 2021 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue (Post 13614215)
Not to beat this drum yet again but this also sounds a lot like the "I can't ignore you engaging the troll, so you have to ignore the troll" thing which I can't stand.

This fits in well with my observation that among this... type of people it's seen as better to have no standards (intellectual, moral, ethical, legal, whatever) then it is have standards and commit the Cardinal Sin of not living up to a 100% strawman, super-literal, no accounting for context version of them.

Here's how their thought process seems to works.

1. Someone tells them anything. This triggers the "How dare you tell me what to think!" subroutine. The idea that someone else has given them information they don't have offends them on a deep level and it drives them crazy. So much of their personal identity is wrapped up in "thinking for themselves" that they have started to actively rejected external information.

2. They immediately start looking for reasons the other person is a "hypocrite." And the way they do this is take the person's values, create a hyper-strawman version of them, find an incident where the person didn't live up to that version of their "standards.

For instance. AOC is actually pretty poor for a member of Congress, but she does make a halfway decent living, drives a fairly nice car, stuff like that. I mean just living in DC is goddamn expensive so I'm sure on a literal level she does throw around more money than average. But AOC is pretty far on the Right and speaks out a lot on class and wage disparity and the ultrawealthy. So the fact that AOC drives a Tesla means she's a... HYPOCRITE while a Republican Congressman worth many, many times more isn't. She is demonized for having standards. If you don't have standards you can never be a hypocrite, never be pretentious, never have to be taken down a peg, can't ever be "not as smart as you think you are" and all those other faults that these people focus on. The only sin you can commit to these people is aiming high and not making it. Wallow in the gutter and you can never let anyone down.

Now me, I operate much more on the "The pot can call the kettle black and the kettle can still be black" side of things. Hypocrisy is certainly an annoying personal trait but it doesn't override actual facts. Not matter the pot and kettles opinion of each other's blackness the RGB and Luminosity values of said pot and said kettle are verifiable facts that exist indendenatly. If I point a DataColor ColorReader at the pot and it returns an RGB value of #000000 the pot is black and the kettle's opinion is no longer needed or matters. The pot, the kettle, or anyone else can be hypocritical about the color of the pot or kettle they want, the facts don't change.

A person who says global warming is a problem and drives a nice car is STILL ******* CORRECT THAT GLOBAL WARMING IS A PROBLEM. Class Disparage isn't not a thing just because AOC doesn't live in a cardboard box and take the bus.

This is why discussions with them always have to take place in some fantasy world they are making up. They never want to discuss events as they actually happened but alternate timelines they are making up in the brain where they can control all the variables.

That's why we have a dozen threads at random point on this board where there's one person who on top of a hill going "If you ignore all the reasons I'm wrong and judge my argument solely on my alternative universe version of events then you'll have to admit I'm right."

Did you mean to write "left" there?

Its kinda like criticizing Greta Thunberg for *gasp* riding on a diesel powered train and then deciding because of this she can be ignored and climate change is fictional.

JoeMorgue 29th September 2021 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lobosrul5 (Post 13614244)
Did you mean to write "left" there?

Yeah brain fart.

lobosrul5 29th September 2021 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smartcooky (Post 13614243)
Yup.

As long as you have the enablers, the ostriches with their heads buried in the sand, the supporters of "the marketplace of ideas" and the "eVerYone ShoULd GeT a FaIr HeaRiNG" crowd, then you will get this argument.

Fascist: "Some people are sub-human and need to culled for the greater good of mankind."

Marketplace of idea supporter: "Well no I don't actually support that, but I support their right to say it".

Someone else: "I think genocide is like REALLY BAD and I'm going to voice my opinion by saying I'll boycott anyone that monetarily supports proponents of genocide whether its their employer, advertiser, investor etc".

Marketplace of idea supporter: "WTF OMG YOU CAN'T DO THAT! What about freedom of speech (for the fascist, but YOU can't say anything that might effect them in any negative way)".

Its absurd.

smartcooky 29th September 2021 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emily's Cat (Post 13614116)
Are you aware that you're advocating for civil war and murder?

IS he? Where?

smartcooky 29th September 2021 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lobosrul5 (Post 13614257)
Fascist: "Some people are sub-human and need to culled for the greater good of mankind."

Marketplace of idea supporter: "Well no I don't actually support that, but I support their right to say it".

Someone else: "I think genocide is like REALLY BAD and I'm going to voice my opinion by saying I'll boycott anyone that monetarily supports proponents of genocide whether its their employer, advertiser, investor etc".

Marketplace of idea supporter: "WTF OMG YOU CAN'T DO THAT! What about freedom of speech (for the fascist, but YOU can't say anything that might effect them in any negative way)".

Its absurd.

100%, yet we have "fascists are people too" members right here on this forum, whose posts are exactly like those responses.

JoeMorgue 29th September 2021 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lobosrul5 (Post 13614244)
Its kinda like criticizing Greta Thunberg for *gasp* riding on a diesel powered train and then deciding because of this she can be ignored and climate change is fictional.

I'm sure it's been a "thing" on some level for pretty much ever, but for me the modern version of it it started when "Al Gore doesn't live in a solar powered cardboard box, ergo environmentalism is just leftist pseudo-science" stopped being the subtext and started being the text in the early 2000s.

lobosrul5 29th September 2021 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smartcooky (Post 13614265)
100%, yet we have "fascists are people too" members right here on this forum, whose posts are exactly like those responses.

Well I don't disagree with "fascists are people too" and still deserve civil rights. That doesn't mean anyone should be required to give them a platform to spew their **** about. As if we lose something valuable by not hearing them out.

tyr_13 29th September 2021 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lobosrul5 (Post 13614257)
Fascist: "Some people are sub-human and need to culled for the greater good of mankind."

Marketplace of idea supporter: "Well no I don't actually support that, but I support their right to say it".

Someone else: "I think genocide is like REALLY BAD and I'm going to voice my opinion by saying I'll boycott anyone that monetarily supports proponents of genocide whether its their employer, advertiser, investor etc".

Marketplace of idea supporter: "WTF OMG YOU CAN'T DO THAT! What about freedom of speech (for the fascist, but YOU can't say anything that might effect them in any negative way)".

Its absurd.

Not only does this give the fascists more latitude, it means not applying that same standard to themselves.

Fascists have dehumanized people by falsely claiming that certain groups are inherently dangerous and trying to replace white people. This has lead directly to mass murder in the recent past (El Paso, Tree of Life, a very vile etc). This speech can't be used to judge the character of the people literally paying for it to be advanced, and you have to still associate with theses people, because not doing so would dehumanize them and might lead to murder in the future. This is why you cannot correctly find the fascists inherently dangerous.

But the deluded centrist somehow misses that if that is the standard not only should they be trying to hold the fascists to it too, but if they held themselves to it they are doing that to the people judging the character of the fascists, which by the deluded centrists standard would mean they are dehumanizing which can lead to murder.

It's absurd all the way down.

JoeMorgue 29th September 2021 11:30 AM

Everyone has rights. That's a pointless truisms that says nothing.

A rapist has rights. That doesn't mean "rapists" and "person who rapes" have different meanings.

smartcooky 29th September 2021 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lobosrul5 (Post 13614192)
You'll need to provide a link showing where murdering fascists is being suggested as a solution. I just haven't seen it here.

You forgot that in the LaLa Land of the Enablers and Marketplace of Ideas supporters, Cancel Culture = Murder Culture!

lobosrul5 29th September 2021 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue (Post 13614274)
Everyone has rights. That's a pointless truisms that says nothing.

A rapist has rights. That doesn't mean "rapists" and "person who rapes" have different meanings.

I'm not sure it is, fascists generally don't think so.

JoeMorgue 29th September 2021 11:32 AM

I love the Marketplace of Ideas. As I concept I will always support it.

But it's meaningless if every idea has to stay in it forever. The Marketplace of Ideas is allowed to make decisions and go "Okay we've decided this is wrong."

Again there's an always an ulterior motive for people who want the debate to never end.

smartcooky 29th September 2021 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lobosrul5 (Post 13614244)
Did you mean to write "left" there?

Its kinda like criticizing Greta Thunberg for *gasp* riding on a diesel powered train and then deciding because of this she can be ignored and climate change is fictional.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue (Post 13614246)
Yeah brain fart.

Wanna fix it while you are still in the edit window?

jnelso99 29th September 2021 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue (Post 13614237)
This is like someone going "Just because he calls himself a Rapist doesn't mean he rapes people."

Yes it does. WORDS MEAN THINGS.

Sure, the guy has Nazi tattoos and wears Nazi paraphernalia, chants Nazi slogans, and runs a Nazi website, but if you don't know if they subscribe to the economic policies of 1940's Germany, you can't call them a Nazi and are apparently a horrible person for even suggesting it.

JoeMorgue 29th September 2021 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smartcooky (Post 13614281)
Wanna fix it while you are still in the edit window?

Yeah I fixed it. Thanks for the heads up.

SuburbanTurkey 29th September 2021 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue (Post 13614277)

Again there's an always an ulterior motive for people who want the debate to never end.

From time to time you actually come across the true believers, but generally that is not the case. It's like finding a libertarian who's not in it just for the kiddie rape and tax evasion.

There are a couple "cancel culture" pundits who I actually find take a pretty consistent view of this, bemoaning censorious right and left alike. Still don't think they have a point, but it's nice for some intellectual honesty.

lobosrul5 29th September 2021 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey (Post 13614286)
From time to time you actually come across the true believers, but generally that is not the case. It's like finding a libertarian who's not in it just for the kiddie rape and tax evasion.

I was in it for the legalized pot* but since our democratic governor did it there really is nothing about their party I find appealing.

*I flirted with libertarianism for about one semester in college.

SuburbanTurkey 29th September 2021 11:55 AM

In case people forgot what real censorship looks like:

Man who was arrested for 1A protected speech cannot sue cops that illegally arrested him because of qualified immunity.

Quote:

New life was injected into a free speech legal saga over an "I Eat Ass" bumper sticker yesterday when a federal judge ruled that the expression might violate Florida's obscenity law and would thus be unprotected by the First Amendment.

At the center of the odyssey is Florida man Dillon Shane Webb, who was pulled over in May of 2019 after Columbia County Sheriff's Deputy Travis English took exception to the sticker. Webb declined to censor it on the spot, his vehicle was searched, and he was subsequently arrested and booked in jail for "obscene writing on vehicles" and "resisting an officer without violence." (The "resisting" in question refers to his refusal to alter the sticker's appearance at the officer's demand.)

Those charges were dropped shortly thereafter, with the State Attorney's Office citing the First Amendment.

But the U.S. District Court for the Middle District of Florida ruled yesterday that the case is not so cut and dry, awarding qualified immunity to English and thus dooming the suit Webb brought against him for allegedly violating his free speech rights and for falsely arresting him.
https://reason.com/2021/09/28/florid...immunity-cops/

ponderingturtle 29th September 2021 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey (Post 13614307)
In case people forgot what real censorship looks like:

Man who was arrested for 1A protected speech cannot sue cops that illegally arrested him because of qualified immunity.



https://reason.com/2021/09/28/florid...immunity-cops/

He might get something from the department for wrongful arrest but, yea getting a cop personally for wrongful arrest is never going to happen.

lobosrul5 29th September 2021 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey (Post 13614307)
In case people forgot what real censorship looks like:

Man who was arrested for 1A protected speech cannot sue cops that illegally arrested him because of qualified immunity.



https://reason.com/2021/09/28/florid...immunity-cops/


Quote:

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle (Post 13614317)
He might get something from the department for wrongful arrest but, yea getting a cop personally for wrongful arrest is never going to happen.

Getting something from the department will mean the city or county re-allocating funds which means the punishment for the people actually committing the crime is nothing and essentially makes it de facto legal. It would be like punishing someone who stole $100 with a fine of $1.

ponderingturtle 29th September 2021 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lobosrul5 (Post 13614323)
Getting something from the department will mean the city or county re-allocating funds which means the punishment for the people actually committing the crime is nothing and essentially makes it de facto legal. It would be like punishing someone who stole $100 with a fine of $1.

Ah so like wage theft then.

JoeMorgue 29th September 2021 12:04 PM

There's a concept in legalese, estoppel. It basically means you if you outright admit you are doing something, you can't then go back and argue terminology.

Let's say a jurisdiction has anti-smut laws, but the laws don't really make it clear what is smut and what isn't.

But you open "Big Dave's House of Smut, That's Right I Said Smut, Come Buy The Smuttest Smut that ever Smutted" and get arrested, you can't THEN go back and argue that what is smut isn't clear because you've already admitted you know which side you are one.

This is what kills so much discourse and why I have such a seething hatred of the "No wait let's stop and define the line" arguments.

If you're are saying "I'm a Nazi" then there is literally no point in trying to have the discussion, or have some someone have it on your behalf, about where to drawn the line. You've already declared which side of it you are on.

dirtywick 29th September 2021 12:06 PM

nazis aren't the real nazis

SuburbanTurkey 29th September 2021 12:56 PM

Silver lining about the far right is that they are often even more incompetent than the stereotypes would have you believe.

Quote:

BREAKING: hacktivists with Anonymous release a second round of data from the Epik hack. A security researcher who was able to verify the extent of the leak to me described it as "a complete own." At over 300 gigabytes worth of data, this leak is larger than the first.

This leak appears to be fully bootable disk images of Epik servers, including a wide range of passwords and API tokens.
https://twitter.com/stevanzetti/stat...99000187297795

Cancellations incoming!

ETA: important to remember that this hack is the result of a broader campaign to cancel these people. Epik is a provider of last resort after the more reputable vendors refuse to host their bigoted content.

Delphic Oracle 29th September 2021 01:10 PM

As with some others here, I used to be more of a free speech absolutist, but see the folly of it now.

I do still resist any kind of government department enforcing standards, but only because the pragmatist cynic in me believes that it will inevitably get staffed by fascists and turned on its head.

pgwenthold 30th September 2021 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue (Post 13614233)
Again one day, God willing, I will find a woman who loves me as much as Internet Free Speech Advocates love Nazis.

You will get fewer Free Speech Advocates to run screeching out of the woodwork at you if you actually go "I'm against Free Speech" then you will if you are against Nazis.

I hope you see this before it gets zorched for being off-topic, but I was reading yesterday about the school in KC (I think) that did not allow their volleyball team to wear t-shirts that promoted racial unity before a match against a team that is known for having a lot of racist crap thrown at them. The school's justification was that "If we allow these shirts, we would have to allow them to wear KKK shirts."

Nominally, that is true, but I have to suggest, if you are concerned that you students are going to be wearing KKK t-shirts to a volleyball game, then you have a much bigger problem at your school than your free speech policy that prohibiting racial unity shirts is not going to fix.

lobosrul5 30th September 2021 09:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pgwenthold (Post 13615334)
I hope you see this before it gets zorched for being off-topic, but I was reading yesterday about the school in KC (I think) that did not allow their volleyball team to wear t-shirts that promoted racial unity before a match against a team that is known for having a lot of racist crap thrown at them. The school's justification was that "If we allow these shirts, we would have to allow them to wear KKK shirts."

Nominally, that is true, but I have to suggest, if you are concerned that you students are going to be wearing KKK t-shirts to a volleyball game, then you have a much bigger problem at your school than your free speech policy that prohibiting racial unity shirts is not going to fix.

Seems they violated a supreme court ruling to me... but those have become pretty meaningless lately.

https://www.uscourts.gov/educational...r-v-des-moines


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