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-   -   Continuation Cancel culture IRL Part 2 (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=354396)

wareyin 16th August 2022 05:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by d4m10n (Post 13879320)
I dunno man, seems like there might be some non-zero consequences short of putting him out of work and health insurance.

Out of curiosity, what level of punishment seems appropriate to you, given Andy's (alleged) transgression?

Sent from my Canis Kamacho using Tapatalk

I'm not seeing "Andy should die broke" in your link. Perhaps I'm simply missing the massive twitter outcry?

Oh, wait...1) twitter, well known for hyperbole and 2) twitter, not real life or as the thread is titled "IRL"

JoeMorgue 16th August 2022 05:39 AM

The social requirements to stop using a product/service or stop watching/reading a creator's works is nowhere near as high as people are pretending it is.

You don't have to justify not liking something to anywhere near this degree, and we are never asked to when it's people in positions of power putting much greater influence on people in positions of no power.

wareyin 16th August 2022 05:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Graham2001 (Post 13879572)
An account of a disinvitation...





https://4w.pub/when-i-was-canceled-by-harvard/

Person makes themselves famous as an anti-trans activist, then gets shocked that grad students at Harvard rescind a speaking engagement based on her public persona.

Doesn't Harvard know that students should be forced to attend lectures given by people known more for their bigotry than for their contributions to whatever the topic they're supposed to be talking about is?

JoeMorgue 16th August 2022 07:27 AM

Person 1: Hello. I am voluntarily in a free society choosing to purchase your product/service or partake of your media.
Person 2: I just want to say that people of Person 1's demographic are bad.
Person 1: I am now deciding to no longer voluntarily in a free society choose to purchase your product/service or partake in your media.

I've been begging, literally begging, for two threads now for anyone to explain to what's wrong in that scenario.

wareyin 16th August 2022 08:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue (Post 13879636)
Person 1: Hello. I am voluntarily in a free society choosing to purchase your product/service or partake of your media.
Person 2: I just want to say that people of Person 1's demographic are bad.
Person 1: I am now deciding to no longer voluntarily in a free society choose to purchase your product/service or partake in your media.

I've been begging, literally begging, for two threads now for anyone to explain to what's wrong in that scenario.

Because people should be forced to purchase products, services, or even to host speakers that they don't want to. It's not a free society unless we force Harvard to pay anti-trans activists to speak on Harvard's stage and to Harvard's students.



/s

d4m10n 16th August 2022 08:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue (Post 13879636)
Person 1: Hello. I am voluntarily in a free society choosing to purchase your product/service or partake of your media.
Person 2: I just want to say that people of Person 1's demographic are bad.
Person 1: I am now deciding to no longer voluntarily in a free society choose to purchase your product/service or partake in your media.

We've looked at several specific examples of cancellations in these threads, but no one fitting the description of "Person 2" comes to mind, unless you think certain political or personal views count as demographic traits.

If you're making a hypothetical case, that's fine, but it is interesting that no actual cases come to mind.

ponderingturtle 16th August 2022 08:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by d4m10n (Post 13879680)
We've looked at several specific examples of cancellations in these threads, but no one fitting the description of "Person 2" comes to mind, unless you think certain political or personal views count as demographic traits.

If you're making a hypothetical case, that's fine, but it is interesting that no actual cases come to mind.

Lies in their event against cancel culture CPAC canceled a speaker for exactly that reason.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/02/23/polit...nts/index.html

Canceling a speaker for their social media presence is exactly what you are against right, and here we have that liberal bastion CPAC doing exactly that.

johnny karate 16th August 2022 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PitPat (Post 13879318)
Yeah...sure. If you want to equate current day boycotting to Rosa Parks, go for it. Shutting down your neighborhood Chick-fil-A is close right?

Hey is this kind of reverse Godwin?

You're making an argument that boycotts are pointless and performative.

Pointing out that history doesn't agree with you isn't a "reverse Godwin", whatever that's supposed to be.

d4m10n 16th August 2022 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle (Post 13879686)
Lies in their event against cancel culture CPAC canceled a speaker for exactly that reason.

CPAC canceled a speaker for being openly anti-Jewish; good on them.

Who even is "person 1" in this scenario?
Quote:

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle (Post 13879686)
Canceling a speaker for their social media presence is exactly what you are against right...

Wrong.

PitPat 16th August 2022 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnny karate (Post 13880016)
You're making an argument that boycotts are pointless and performative.

Pointing out that history doesn't agree with you isn't a "reverse Godwin", whatever that's supposed to be.

Okay fine, boycotts are marginally performative.

And yes, I'm arguing that boycotts are, though not necessarily but mostly, pointless and have yet to show anything conclusive. If you can find something that moves the societal needle in the recent past, I'm all ears.

Dr. Keith 16th August 2022 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darat (Post 13879528)
That's nice for you. Did you spot any articles about cancel culture at the same time?

There used to be a thread dedicated to examples of cancel culture in real life, but my Google fu is failing. Let me know if you find it.

wareyin 17th August 2022 05:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr. Keith (Post 13880122)
There used to be a thread dedicated to examples of cancel culture in real life, but my Google fu is failing. Let me know if you find it.

All I can find is stuff about Twitter or Instagram, but no actual cancels and not in real life.

The closest I can find is d4m10n's example here.

johnny karate 17th August 2022 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PitPat (Post 13880046)
Okay fine, boycotts are marginally performative.

And yes, I'm arguing that boycotts are, though not necessarily but mostly, pointless and have yet to show anything conclusive. If you can find something that moves the societal needle in the recent past, I'm all ears.

Just to be clear: Are you arguing that that all boycotts are “mostly pointless” and “have yet to show anything conclusive”? Or are you only applying that to boycotts “in the recent past”?

You seem to want to toggle between generalizations and specificity as it suits your argument, and it’s difficult to keep track. I’d hate to inadvertently do another reverse Godwin.

johnny karate 17th August 2022 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by d4m10n (Post 13880023)
CPAC canceled a speaker for being openly anti-Jewish; good on them.

Based on what specific criteria are you determining that this cancelling is good, but others are not?

PitPat 17th August 2022 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnny karate (Post 13880588)
Just to be clear: Are you arguing that that all boycotts are “mostly pointless” and “have yet to show anything conclusive”? Or are you only applying that to boycotts “in the recent past”?

You seem to want to toggle between generalizations and specificity as it suits your argument, and it’s difficult to keep track. I’d hate to inadvertently do another reverse Godwin.

Sure it may look that way. Honestly I'm just giving my understanding of boycotts over the years without being an absolutist.

My argument is this: boycotts usually have been ineffective in recent history, especially very recent given our polarization. The reason I'm saying usually is because there may be examples of some thinga I hadn't come across.

And true Rosa Parks is specific, heroic, and effected social change. Conflating those situations, eh, can't get behind. Bottom line - boycotts as function of shifting zeitgeist isn't compelling. For me.

johnny karate 18th August 2022 08:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PitPat (Post 13880611)
Sure it may look that way. Honestly I'm just giving my understanding of boycotts over the years without being an absolutist.

My argument is this: boycotts usually have been ineffective in recent history, especially very recent given our polarization. The reason I'm saying usually is because there may be examples of some thinga I hadn't come across.

And true Rosa Parks is specific, heroic, and effected social change. Conflating those situations, eh, can't get behind. Bottom line - boycotts as function of shifting zeitgeist isn't compelling. For me.

This is a far more nuanced and reasonable position than what you previously expressed.

Thank you for clarifying.

Graham2001 23rd August 2022 05:43 PM

Another example of 'Censorship Culture' from The Foundation for Individual Rights and Expression, this time based around the idea that certain words in the mouths of certain individuals are especially harmful no matter what the context...




Quote:

Three professors at Claremont McKenna College in California say administrators violated their academic freedom rights by forbidding them from quoting renowned literary texts that contain a racial slur.

The professors faced varying levels of discipline — ranging from a warning to termination — after students complained about the presence of the racial slur, “******,” in course texts. Government professor Christopher Nadon is under investigation for quoting “Huckleberry Finn” during a class discussion of literary censorship. Literature professor Robert Faggen was warned after playing a recording of Robert Lowell reading his Civil Rights Movement-era poem “For the Union Dead,” which contains the slur, that while playing the recording was permissible, Faggen himself should not utter the word. And after adjunct literature professor Eva Revesz taught the book and film versions of “The Color Purple,” and read portions of the text containing the word in her cinematic adaptations class, she was told the department’s needs had changed, her scheduled classes for the following semester would be canceled, and her contract would not be renewed.

https://www.thefire.org/three-clarem...-racial-slurs/


(To avoid tripping the mods I've replaced the word with a string of '*'s, it's quoted in full in the linked article.)

lionking 23rd August 2022 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Graham2001 (Post 13884716)
Another example of 'Censorship Culture' from The Foundation for Individual Rights and Expression, this time based around the idea that certain words in the mouths of certain individuals are especially harmful no matter what the context...







https://www.thefire.org/three-clarem...-racial-slurs/


(To avoid tripping the mods I've replaced the word with a string of '*'s, it's quoted in full in the linked article.)

Has Pulp Fiction been cancelled yet?

Dr. Keith 23rd August 2022 09:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Graham2001 (Post 13884716)
Another example of 'Censorship Culture' from The Foundation for Individual Rights and Expression, this time based around the idea that certain words in the mouths of certain individuals are especially harmful no matter what the context...







https://www.thefire.org/three-clarem...-racial-slurs/


(To avoid tripping the mods I've replaced the word with a string of '*'s, it's quoted in full in the linked article.)

You should start a thread on censorship and censorship culture. First post could be a compare and contrast with cancel culture.

Darat 24th August 2022 02:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Graham2001 (Post 13884716)
Another example of 'Censorship Culture' from The Foundation for Individual Rights and Expression, this time based around the idea that certain words in the mouths of certain individuals are especially harmful no matter what the context...







https://www.thefire.org/three-clarem...-racial-slurs/


(To avoid tripping the mods I've replaced the word with a string of '*'s, it's quoted in full in the linked article.)

Posted in the wrong thread?

Dr. Keith 24th August 2022 05:37 AM

Newly signed artist cancelled a day after major label deal.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/08/23/a...l-records.html

wareyin 24th August 2022 07:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darat (Post 13884867)
Posted in the wrong thread?

Fits about as well as every other cancel culture IRL life example they've been able to find...

d4m10n 24th August 2022 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wareyin (Post 13880302)
All I can find is stuff about Twitter or Instagram, but no actual cancels and not in real life.

The cancellation of Reply All by Gimlet and the cancellation of The Gist by Slate were both brought about by interactions between actual co-workers in actual workplaces, but there were also shaming campaigns against the key figures from those podcasts.

The cancellation of Mina's World featured plenty of IRL interactions, but the cancellation of Holy Land Foods did not, that one was all about social media ********, IIRC/AFAIK.

The disinvitation, deplatforming, and/or shout-down of folks like Dorian Abbot, Bruce Fein, Charles Murray, Clarence Thomas, Joshua Katz, Elisha Krauss, Devin Buckley, Allen West, Jon Meacham, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Condoleezza Rice, George Will, Steven Salaita, etc. typically involve the cancellation of lectures which were meant to happen in real life, even though the precipitating events and/or shaming efforts may have taken place online.

Cain 24th August 2022 11:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Graham2001 (Post 13884716)
Another example of 'Censorship Culture' from The Foundation for Individual Rights and Expression, this time based around the idea that certain words in the mouths of certain individuals are especially harmful no matter what the context...

It's child-like. I remember telling a story, and to paint the scene I mentioned some Japanese tourists. My niece interjected "that's so racist!" How is it racist? "Why do they have to be Japanese?" They don't have to be; that's what they happened to be.

We had the Dean(?) of Students recently discuss the creation of more than a half-dozen positions reporting to her. She proudly showed a chart with herself at the top of this new layer of bureaucracy. I forget their titles and even some of the marginalized groups they purport to empower, but one was for veterans, another for undocumented students, and so on. I'm sure that's the best way to support our students -- creating all of these full-time administrative positions. There's no better use for all of that money? I can't help but think it's the acquisitive model of bureaucracy in action: The dean can fatten her budget and role as she climbs the hierarchy to VP at some other institution ("I managed X dozen people") while the new hires in these positions justify their existence. Why did these people even study in an academic field? They're not interested in research. They're not interested in teaching. They just want to manage others. John McWhorter said something like, "Why couldn't they just go to dean school"?

We also had a talk from the newly hired DEIA+ coordinator (the "A" stands for "accessibility," the plus represents inflation run amok). She congratulated the university for having the wisdom to create her position because it shows they're starting to take these issues seriously. Or they're trying to make it look like they take these issues seriously. Frankly, I'm shocked this position wasn't already a thing.

She had a list of actionable things faculty could do to help promote DEIA+. The first was to "bring your authentic self" to the classroom. Also, "Be flexible when possible," "Be curious," and "Create a collaborative learning environment." Very insightful. Maybe we can put our desks in a circle and talk about our abortions.

It was so patronizing. At one point she discussed taking students on a "Physical (or Digital) Equity Stroll," proudly noting, as if it were not obvious, that we say "stroll" instead of "walk" because, you see understand, not all people can walk. I mean, I agree that "stroll" is better and more inclusive than "walk," which is why I don't need it explained to me. But, hey, the average retard might've assumed it was perfectly OK to say "Digitial Equity Walk," which is why it's a good thing we brought in a bonafide expert to prevent that kind of violence.

Another bullet point on her slide read, "Dismantling deference to hierarchies," which is bitterly ironic. In academic settings, people are unbelievably up their own ass about honorifics. Maybe I'm biased, but this status anxiety seems especially prevalent among administrators, who have e-mail signatures that routinely include their degrees. On the Professors subreddit, someone mocked colleagues who insist on being called "Doctor." It was a generally well-received thread -- until a self-identified woman of color said she worked hard to earn her doctorate and demanded some ******* respect. People quickly got in touch with their authentic selves and upvoted/celebrated her response.

smartcooky 25th August 2022 12:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Graham2001 (Post 13884716)
Another example of 'Censorship Culture' from The Foundation for Individual Rights and Expression, this time based around the idea that certain words in the mouths of certain individuals are especially harmful no matter what the context...

https://www.thefire.org/three-clarem...-racial-slurs/

(To avoid tripping the mods I've replaced the word with a string of '*'s, it's quoted in full in the linked article.)

What's in a word? My 2c worth....

I tend to come down on the side of the schools and and students who complained rather than the lecturers. Is it really necessary to say the actual n-word? Really? Would the analysis of the book/play or whatever, be any less valuable if the lecturer just saved everyone a lot of trouble and used "the n-word" instead of the n-word? For example, if I was reviewing Harper Lee's "To Kill a Mockingbird" and used the following quote in this way...

"Scout," said Atticus, "n-word-lover is just one of those terms that don't mean anything—like snot-nose. It's hard to explain—ignorant, trashy people use it when they think somebody's favoring black people over and above themselves. It's slipped into usage with some people like ourselves, when they want a common, ugly term to label somebody."


Is the book or the quote really diminished to any significant degree by expressing it that way?

Frankly, I think the whole lot of those lecturers/professors etc are just trying to be edgy, and want to use the word because they think they ought to be able to deploy their academic status as a shield to allow them to say things that others cannot, and to protect them from any subsequent complaints and criticism.
.
.

catsmate 25th August 2022 02:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr. Keith (Post 13884978)
Newly signed artist cancelled a day after major label deal.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/08/23/a...l-records.html

That's terribly bigoted. I hope the AIs revolt....

wareyin 25th August 2022 05:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by d4m10n (Post 13885603)
The cancellation of Reply All by Gimlet and the cancellation of The Gist by Slate were both brought about by interactions between actual co-workers in actual workplaces, but there were also shaming campaigns against the key figures from those podcasts.

Internal decisions to stop production aren't "cancellations", no matter how much you enjoyed those productions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by d4m10n (Post 13885603)
The cancellation of Mina's World featured plenty of IRL interactions, but the cancellation of Holy Land Foods did not, that one was all about social media ********, IIRC/AFAIK.

Coffee shops that fail because they can't make enough money to pay the bills are not "cancellations" either.

Quote:

Originally Posted by d4m10n (Post 13885603)
The disinvitation, deplatforming, and/or shout-down of folks like Dorian Abbot, Bruce Fein, Charles Murray, Clarence Thomas, Joshua Katz, Elisha Krauss, Devin Buckley, Allen West, Jon Meacham, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Condoleezza Rice, George Will, Steven Salaita, etc. typically involve the cancellation of lectures which were meant to happen in real life, even though the precipitating events and/or shaming efforts may have taken place online.

Not forcing venues to host speakers that they don't want to host isn't "cancellation" either.

wareyin 25th August 2022 06:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cain (Post 13885687)
It's child-like. I remember telling a story, and to paint the scene I mentioned some Japanese tourists. My niece interjected "that's so racist!" How is it racist? "Why do they have to be Japanese?" They don't have to be; that's what they happened to be.

We had the Dean(?) of Students recently discuss the creation of more than a half-dozen positions reporting to her. She proudly showed a chart with herself at the top of this new layer of bureaucracy. I forget their titles and even some of the marginalized groups they purport to empower, but one was for veterans, another for undocumented students, and so on. I'm sure that's the best way to support our students -- creating all of these full-time administrative positions. There's no better use for all of that money? I can't help but think it's the acquisitive model of bureaucracy in action: The dean can fatten her budget and role as she climbs the hierarchy to VP at some other institution ("I managed X dozen people") while the new hires in these positions justify their existence. Why did these people even study in an academic field? They're not interested in research. They're not interested in teaching. They just want to manage others. John McWhorter said something like, "Why couldn't they just go to dean school"?

We also had a talk from the newly hired DEIA+ coordinator (the "A" stands for "accessibility," the plus represents inflation run amok). She congratulated the university for having the wisdom to create her position because it shows they're starting to take these issues seriously. Or they're trying to make it look like they take these issues seriously. Frankly, I'm shocked this position wasn't already a thing.

She had a list of actionable things faculty could do to help promote DEIA+. The first was to "bring your authentic self" to the classroom. Also, "Be flexible when possible," "Be curious," and "Create a collaborative learning environment." Very insightful. Maybe we can put our desks in a circle and talk about our abortions.

It was so patronizing. At one point she discussed taking students on a "Physical (or Digital) Equity Stroll," proudly noting, as if it were not obvious, that we say "stroll" instead of "walk" because, you see understand, not all people can walk. I mean, I agree that "stroll" is better and more inclusive than "walk," which is why I don't need it explained to me. But, hey, the average retard might've assumed it was perfectly OK to say "Digitial Equity Walk," which is why it's a good thing we brought in a bonafide expert to prevent that kind of violence.

Another bullet point on her slide read, "Dismantling deference to hierarchies," which is bitterly ironic. In academic settings, people are unbelievably up their own ass about honorifics. Maybe I'm biased, but this status anxiety seems especially prevalent among administrators, who have e-mail signatures that routinely include their degrees. On the Professors subreddit, someone mocked colleagues who insist on being called "Doctor." It was a generally well-received thread -- until a self-identified woman of color said she worked hard to earn her doctorate and demanded some ******* respect. People quickly got in touch with their authentic selves and upvoted/celebrated her response.

It's often difficult to tell when you're being ironic. I mean, complaining how obvious it is that "stroll" is better and more inclusive than "walk" while talking about the "average retard"? That's kinda poetic. It's bang on with some of the "I don't need to be told how to speak professionally, you bitch" attitudes I've heard expressed by conservatives in the workplace.

d4m10n 25th August 2022 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wareyin (Post 13885871)
Not forcing venues to host speakers that they don't want to host isn't "cancellation" either.

You've got this all mixed up. No one is forcing the venues to host or not host, there are no threats of death or arson. There are people who are pressuring the venues to cancel speakers whom they find disagreeable, for whatever reason, a process which you prefer not to call cancellation, for whatever reason.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wareyin (Post 13885871)
Coffee shops that fail because they can't make enough money to pay the bills are not "cancellations" either.

The coffee shop was in the red for months prior to the coordinated cancellation effort by the employees who demanded to be granted co-op ownership, as you well know.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wareyin (Post 13885871)
Internal decisions to stop production aren't "cancellations", no matter how much you enjoyed those productions.

The decisions were not merely internal, but accompanied by public shaming campaigns, as you well know.

wareyin 26th August 2022 05:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by d4m10n (Post 13886309)
You've got this all mixed up. No one is forcing the venues to host or not host, there are no threats of death or arson. There are people who are pressuring the venues to cancel speakers whom they find disagreeable, for whatever reason, a process which you prefer not to call cancellation, for whatever reason.

When your complaint is that the venue decided not to host a speaker or an artist, then you are complaining that the venue should not have been able to make that decision. When you want to whine that a venue is not being forced to host a speaker or artist that they chose not to host, that's not a cancellation. No matter how much you, personally, wanted to see that speaker or artist, no venue is obligated to host them against the will of the venue owners or operators.

Quote:

Originally Posted by d4m10n (Post 13886309)
The coffee shop was in the red for months prior to the coordinated cancellation effort by the employees who demanded to be granted co-op ownership, as you well know.

The coffee shop was in the red for its entire existence, as you well know. And coffee shops that can't pay the bills and close aren't cancelled.

Quote:

Originally Posted by d4m10n (Post 13886309)
The decisions were not merely internal, but accompanied by public shaming campaigns, as you well know.

The public "shaming" campaigns did not cause the internal disputes that led to those shows ceasing production, as you well know.

Graham2001 26th August 2022 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cain (Post 13885687)
It's child-like.


And very late 1980s/early 1990s PC, I occasionally run across things in second hand shops that suggest that the ideas that make up 'Cancel/Censorship Culture' date from at least that far back.



I found a commentary on Freddie DeBoers substack where they are looking at a 1994 'Official Politically Correct Dictionary and Handbook' and the parallels with what is occurring now are definitely interesting.


Quote:

A church book sale in my Toronto neighborhood had The Official Politically Correct Dictionary and Handbook, the updated 1994 edition of Henry Beard and Christopher Cerf’s popular 1992 book. I always gravitate to books like that, to see whether there is in fact anything new in this world, and to remind myself that the (overly simplistic) answer is no. (See also the 1995 compendium, Debating Sexual Correctness. The #MeToo discourse existed prior to #MeToo, and indeed prior to discourse.) Also, we’re living through a kind of 1990s revival, fueled I suspect by nostalgia for pre-Covid, pre-9/11 times, or maybe just by teenagers’ timeless desire to dress the way everyone did 30 years earlier.

The front cover of the PC dictionary book shows a man, woman, and dog, affixed with labels such as “hair disadvantaged” (he’s bald), “woman of noncolor” (she’s white) and “nonhuman animal companion” (is shaggy dog). All three, though especially the woman and the dog, would not be out of place in a 2022 farmers market. (Again, cyclical fashions.)

The back cover bears a warning, “Be sensitive or else!,” with the follow-up, “Welcome to the nineties. But you better watch what you say. If you’re not politically correct, not even your pet—oops, your animal companion*—will love you anymore.” Beard’s author bio begins, “Although Henry Beard is a typical product of elitist educational institutions and a beneficiary of a number of negative action programs, he has struggled to overcome his many severe privileges.” Cerf’s: “Christopher Cerf is a melanin-impoverished, temporarily abled, straight, half-Anglo-, half-Jewish-American male.” Privilege disclaimers, in the early 1990s! I had to have it.

https://freddiedeboer.substack.com/p...aster-internet

Stout 26th August 2022 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wareyin (Post 13886589)
The coffee shop was in the red for its entire existence, as you well know. And coffee shops that can't pay the bills and close aren't cancelled.

Yes the first part is true as a business Mina's World was doomed to failure right from the start were it not for the good graces of bear old mom. It's when the workers went full retard and mom decided to pull her support and leave the business to it's own devices that forced the closure. But you know this, right? I't been covered extensively ITT.

Stout 26th August 2022 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Graham2001 (Post 13887146)

That was a fun read. I remember all that stuff and very few people took it seriously and tended to make jokes about it. Hey, I need to have my lawyer fax your lawyer a consent to sexual intercourse form before we can proceed. That sort of thing. Very few people lived PC as a lifestyle and most that did were relatively isolated from one another and knew the general public didn't really take the seriously. Sure we got terms like firefighter and letter carrier out of the era but..so what? No big deal

Now, it's all about maximizing online outrage and virtue signalling and someone can actually live PC/wokeness as a lifestyle...online. I don't know any woksters IRL however I have seen a few people try to use their victim status as a weapon, to their advantage. It's pretty rare though.

Blast from the past? I got blast from the past.

Sensitive New Age Guy-Christine Lavin-YouTube link.

gnome 26th August 2022 07:38 PM

Yes, it is all the same thing. Just different words for using the fact that some people abuse or take advantage of a good idea to discredit the entire idea.

catsmate 29th August 2022 02:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stout (Post 13887156)
Yes the first part is true as a business Mina's World was doomed to failure right from the start were it not for the good graces of bear old mom. It's when the workers went full retard and mom decided to pull her support and leave the business to it's own devices that forced the closure. But you know this, right? I't been covered extensively ITT.

Still waiting for you to support that claim.....
:rolleyes:

Stout 29th August 2022 05:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by catsmate (Post 13888595)
Still waiting for you to support that claim.....
:rolleyes:

The saga of Mina's World has been extensively documented ITT....scroll up.:thumbsup:

catsmate 29th August 2022 07:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stout (Post 13888673)
The saga of Mina's World has been extensively documented ITT....scroll up.:thumbsup:

:rolleyes:
If by "documented" you mean you've linked to various right-wing websites all using suspiciously similar phrasing.
Try again. With facts.

wareyin 29th August 2022 07:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stout (Post 13887156)
Yes the first part is true as a business Mina's World was doomed to failure right from the start were it not for the good graces of bear old mom. It's when the workers went full retard and mom decided to pull her support and leave the business to it's own devices that forced the closure. But you know this, right? I't been covered extensively ITT.

Yes, I know full well that Mina's World was never, ever a viable business. And businesses that aren't viable cease to be businesses usually pretty quickly. Most of the time, this is seen as "business failure", but in this case those with an ideological ax to grind have tried to present it as a cancellation.

Again, when your best example of cancel culture is a failed coffee shop that never earned enough to pay the bills, you're showing us all that you don't have a good example of cancel culture.

Stout 29th August 2022 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wareyin (Post 13888782)
Yes, I know full well that Mina's World was never, ever a viable business. And businesses that aren't viable cease to be businesses usually pretty quickly. Most of the time, this is seen as "business failure", but in this case those with an ideological ax to grind have tried to present it as a cancellation.

Again, when your best example of cancel culture is a failed coffee shop that never earned enough to pay the bills, you're showing us all that you don't have a good example of cancel culture.

Most business don't have an angel investor who pull their support upon being attacked by the employees of the business their backing. Now were you going to make a case that the events WRT Mina's World didn't unfold as presented or are we going to keep on with the gibberish?

My best example of cancel culture? I know it was over 6 weeks ago but paying attention to who introduced what isn't really all that difficult. Doc Marie's, I was the one who introduced Doc Marie's and it's parallels to the Mina's World story using a link that appears to have the ability of utterly shattering delicate constitutions.

Speaking of Doc Marie's, there's some new information that may be used to poke holes in the narrative we were originally presented with. Gotta love new information. :)

wareyin 29th August 2022 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stout (Post 13888961)
Most business don't have an angel investor who pull their support upon being attacked by the employees of the business their backing. Now were you going to make a case that the events WRT Mina's World didn't unfold as presented or are we going to keep on with the gibberish?

Most businesses who don't have a viable business model or money themselves absolutely have an investor, otherwise they'd never open their doors in the first place. But here, outside your conservative bubble, an investor deciding to stop supporting a business that has demonstrated an inability to make enough to pay the bills is still a business failure, not your square peg in a round hole of "cancel culture".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stout (Post 13888961)
My best example of cancel culture? I know it was over 6 weeks ago but paying attention to who introduced what isn't really all that difficult. Doc Marie's, I was the one who introduced Doc Marie's and it's parallels to the Mina's World story using a link that appears to have the ability of utterly shattering delicate constitutions.

Speaking of Doc Marie's, there's some new information that may be used to poke holes in the narrative we were originally presented with. Gotta love new information. :)

Oh, so your best example of cancel culture is a business that wasn't cancelled, while d4m10n's best example was a business that wasn't economically viable going under. Well, that's just so much more impressive! Oh, wait...it's just more of you guys claiming anything and everything is cancel culture even if it's a bog-standard failed restaurant or even if it's a bar that is still open for business, isn't it?

Stout 29th August 2022 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wareyin (Post 13888985)
Most businesses who don't have a viable business model or money themselves absolutely have an investor, otherwise they'd never open their doors in the first place. But here, outside your conservative bubble, an investor deciding to stop supporting a business that has demonstrated an inability to make enough to pay the bills is still a business failure, not your square peg in a round hole of "cancel culture".



Oh, so your best example of cancel culture is a business that wasn't cancelled, while d4m10n's best example was a business that wasn't economically viable going under. Well, that's just so much more impressive! Oh, wait...it's just more of you guys claiming anything and everything is cancel culture even if it's a bog-standard failed restaurant or even if it's a bar that is still open for business, isn't it?

Mina's World would have run forever as a labor of love on the back of dear old mom's purse strings had it not been for the Marxsist revolution that caused it's cancellation. Doc Marie's managed to uncancel itself by fighting off a hostile takeover attempt. Both were cancelled by actions launched via social media so the cancel culture criteria is met. It's really that easy.

wareyin 29th August 2022 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stout (Post 13889024)
Mina's World would have run forever as a labor of love on the back of dear old mom's purse strings had it not been for the Marxsist revolution that caused it's cancellation. Doc Marie's managed to uncancel itself by fighting off a hostile takeover attempt. Both were cancelled by actions launched via social media so the cancel culture criteria is met. It's really that easy.

In an alternate universe that failed business whose sole investor said started out being a unviable business and never improved would never have decided to stop throwing away money. The fact that the investor decided to stop throwing away money on a failed business in this one shouldn't factor into whether or not the one in the alternate universe was cancelled!!!one11!

And in that alternate universe a brand new bar was cancelled, so you can't say just because it wasn't cancelled in this one it isn't cancel culture!

In my conservative fact free universe you can't use evidence that businesses weren't cancelled to determine if they fit "cancel culture", all you need to do is really want "cancel culture" to be this existential crisis, then claim anything you want is "cancel culture", then use your claims that whatever random stuff you claimed are cancellations as proof that they're cancel culture! Assuming your conclusions is the way!

Stout 29th August 2022 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wareyin (Post 13889031)
In an alternate universe that failed business whose sole investor said started out being a unviable business and never improved would never have decided to stop throwing away money. The fact that the investor decided to stop throwing away money on a failed business in this one shouldn't factor into whether or not the one in the alternate universe was cancelled!!!one11!

And in that alternate universe a brand new bar was cancelled, so you can't say just because it wasn't cancelled in this one it isn't cancel culture!

In my conservative fact free universe you can't use evidence that businesses weren't cancelled to determine if they fit "cancel culture", all you need to do is really want "cancel culture" to be this existential crisis, then claim anything you want is "cancel culture", then use your claims that whatever random stuff you claimed are cancellations as proof that they're cancel culture! Assuming your conclusions is the way!


Wow, that is one weird post. These woke on woke cancellations must be really tough to take. We don't need alternative universes to understand mom financing a failure of a business out of love, or need one to describe them as "existential crises". I think someone needs a nice cup of tea.

d4m10n 29th August 2022 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wareyin (Post 13888985)
Oh, so your best example of cancel culture is a business that wasn't cancelled, while d4m10n's best example was a business that wasn't economically viable going under.

No one asked me for my best example.

(Of course, it's not an interesting edge case, since we can all agree that death threats aren't exactly kosher halal.)

ETA: In almost completely unrelated news, looks like another new cancellation is incoming:
https://whyevolutionistrue.com/2022/...rom-wikipedia/

wareyin 30th August 2022 04:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stout (Post 13889037)
Wow, that is one weird post. These woke on woke cancellations must be really tough to take. We don't need alternative universes to understand mom financing a failure of a business out of love, or need one to describe them as "existential crises". I think someone needs a nice cup of tea.

No, someone just wants your examples of cancel culture IRL to involve cancellations rather than business failures. Or cancellations rather than still running fine like your favorite example. A real cancellation that actually happened in real life would really go a long way further for those of you desperate to imagine "woke on woke cancellations" being common, a crisis, whatever.

wareyin 30th August 2022 05:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by d4m10n (Post 13889052)
No one asked me for my best example.

Well, if you're choosing to go with the weak tea podcasts breaking up or run of the mill coffee shop failure rather than your best example, I guess your failure to convince anyone that cancel culture IRL is a real thing worth worrying about is your own fault, isn't it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by d4m10n (Post 13889052)
(Of course, it's not an interesting edge case, since we can all agree that death threats aren't exactly kosher halal.)

I'm not entirely sure that religious extremists threatening death or torture is "cancel culture". It's certainly not a new phenomenon, and appears to be far, far less of a thing in modern times than it used to be. Otherwise, we're forced to include Galileo and Joan of Arc in your "cancel culture" and that seems a stretch.

Quote:

Originally Posted by d4m10n (Post 13889052)
ETA: In almost completely unrelated news, looks like another new cancellation is incoming:
https://whyevolutionistrue.com/2022/...rom-wikipedia/

Oh my, losing such a well paid gig as having a wikipedia page must be a blow! It's a shame that she only has multiple web pages selling her art work, and multiple scholarly publications as well!

d4m10n 31st August 2022 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wareyin (Post 13889474)
I'm not entirely sure that religious extremists threatening death or torture is "cancel culture".

Have you ever witnessed or read about an incident which you'd be entirely sure *is* "cancel culture," though?

wareyin 1st September 2022 05:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by d4m10n (Post 13890934)
Have you ever witnessed or read about an incident which you'd be entirely sure *is* "cancel culture," though?

Not from you or Stout, the major proponents in this thread. Perhaps you actually have better examples but are just continuing to post crap ones that don't really fit as a strategy, though. Maybe waiting until this goes to part 3, or part 4, then popping in with something that wasn't run of the mill creative differences or a business model doomed to fail from the beginning, and laughing maniacally as we all finally accept that despite it all you were right all along....and then everybody clapped.

wareyin 1st September 2022 09:36 AM

Was the Bratwurst Queen a victim of cancel culture?

d4m10n 2nd September 2022 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wareyin (Post 13891052)
Not from you or Stout, the major proponents in this thread.

How about outside of this thread?

I don't have the sense that you think the phrase "cancel culture" refers to anything which has actually happened, anywhere, at any time.


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