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-   -   Carburetor manufacturers. (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=318333)

MRC_Hans 3rd April 2017 12:30 PM

Carburetor manufacturers.
 
Just checked the oil on my (rather new) car. As the hood was open, looked at the air intake, which lead through an air filter and directly to the intake manifold.

I realized that my last five cars have had direct fuel injection. Direct injection suddenly took over sometimes around 1990. In a few years, all new cars had it.

Carburetors is now something for lawn mowers, small two-wheel rides, and such. What happened to all the carburetor manufacturers who suddenly lost most of their market?

Hans

Ziggurat 3rd April 2017 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MRC_Hans (Post 11784181)
Just checked the oil on my (rather new) car. As the hood was open, looked at the air intake, which lead through an air filter and directly to the intake manifold.

I realized that my last five cars have had direct fuel injection. Direct injection suddenly took over sometimes around 1990. In a few years, all new cars had it.

Carburetors is now something for lawn mowers, small two-wheel rides, and such. What happened to all the carburetor manufacturers who suddenly lost most of their market?

Hans

How many carburetor manufacturers were there? Carburetors aren't that complex or specialized, it's basically just cast/machined metal. Which... describes most car parts. I suspect most carburetors were not made by carburetor-only manufacturers, they were made by auto parts manufacturers who make lots and lots of different parts. Those companies didn't lose their markets, they just shifted their production. But they have to do that on a regular basis anyways, including when they went from one model of carburetor (or any other part) to a newer one.

William Parcher 3rd April 2017 12:52 PM

Some automobile manufacturers made their own carburetors. I checked out the one for General Motors vehicles which I remember was the Rochester carb.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wikipedia
Rochester Products Division (RPD) was a division of General Motors that manufactured carburetors, and related components including emissions control devices and cruise control systems in Rochester, New York. In 1995 Rochester became part of Delphi, which in turn became a separate company four years later, and continues to manufacture fuel injection systems in Rochester, now part of General Motors Automotive Components Holdings- Rochester Operations...


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roch...on?wprov=sfla1

Mike! 3rd April 2017 01:00 PM

At one time there was a Carter Carburetor factory in St. Louis, it's long gone now, but the property it was on is still under cleanup from all the toxic crap that was a byproduct of years of manufacturing them.

Meadmaker 3rd April 2017 01:04 PM

They retired.

Unfortunately, most of their retirement funds were invested in Kodak stock.

DGM 3rd April 2017 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MRC_Hans (Post 11784181)
What happened to all the carburetor manufacturers who suddenly lost most of their market?

Hans

Most now produce the components for the fuel injection systems. Holley Carburetors has a large presence in fuel injection and also still makes carbs for aftermarket applications.

Trebuchet 3rd April 2017 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MRC_Hans (Post 11784181)
Just checked the oil on my (rather new) car. As the hood was open, looked at the air intake, which lead through an air filter and directly to the intake manifold.

I realized that my last five cars have had direct fuel injection. Direct injection suddenly took over sometimes around 1990. In a few years, all new cars had it.

Carburetors is now something for lawn mowers, small two-wheel rides, and such. What happened to all the carburetor manufacturers who suddenly lost most of their market?

Hans

Nitpick: Direct injection is for Diesels; where fuel is injected directly into the cylinder. What you're seeing is port injection.

I actually had a large repair shop refuse to work on my old pickup a few years back because it had a carb and they didn't have the knowledge or equipement any more. Even though the problem was an oil leak....

Mark F 3rd April 2017 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MRC_Hans (Post 11784181)
Just checked the oil on my (rather new) car. As the hood was open, looked at the air intake, which lead through an air filter and directly to the intake manifold.

I realized that my last five cars have had direct fuel injection. Direct injection suddenly took over sometimes around 1990. In a few years, all new cars had it.

Carburetors is now something for lawn mowers, small two-wheel rides, and such. What happened to all the carburetor manufacturers who suddenly lost most of their market?

Hans

Same thing that happened to the manufacturers of vacuum tubes and a long list of other, obsolete technologies.

Trebuchet 3rd April 2017 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark F (Post 11784377)
Same thing that happened to the manufacturers of vacuum tubes and a long list of other, obsolete technologies.

Yup. Even when you can see it coming it's often tough to change course.

Mike! 3rd April 2017 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trebuchet (Post 11784343)
Nitpick: Direct injection is for Diesels; where fuel is injected directly into the cylinder. What you're seeing is port injection.

I actually had a large repair shop refuse to work on my old pickup a few years back because it had a carb and they didn't have the knowledge or equipement any more. Even though the problem was an oil leak....

That's not true today, the new Corvette is direct injected and gas fueled. You'll be seeing more and more of it in the coming years.

Red Baron Farms 3rd April 2017 03:19 PM

This company Orbital Corporation has developed a high RPM direct fuel injection system which they have licenced to a few marine companies for use with their outboard 2 stroke engines.

As far as I know they have yet to work out all the bugs on their orbital engine, but the DFI (direct fuel injection) system they designed for the orbital engine has been in use for decades (since 1996) and is very reliable and efficient.

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Trebuchet 3rd April 2017 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike! (Post 11784415)
That's not true today, the new Corvette is direct injected and gas fueled. You'll be seeing more and more of it in the coming years.

Dang, previous response didn't go!
I didn't know about the Vette; that's interesting. But when the OP says "all new cars", it's port injection. Still much more sophisticated than the continuous injection on the Vettes of 50 years ago.

bruto 3rd April 2017 07:01 PM

Looking up a few, it seems that Carter went belly-up, Rochester, which was a division of GM, went sideways and got absorbed, and Holley is still out there, branching into racing carburetors, fuel injection and other stuff. Weber is still doing business in Europe but not building carburetors, as is Solex which has always also been a manufacturer of mopeds. I imagine the Japanese have managed just to go sideways too. Tillotson is now in Ireland. Walbro is still around, and I think Briggs and Stratton make their own, and imagine many of the outfits that made carbs for small engines still exist, in some form.

I had quite a time finding parts for a Tillotson on an old Sachs Dolmar chain saw, but they exist.

Fast Eddie B 3rd April 2017 07:23 PM

BING is still cranking them out for ROTAX aircraft engines.

A lightly modified motorcycle carb, BTW.

Didymus 3rd April 2017 07:35 PM

Well I guess we'll never get to see that promised 100 mpg carburetor.

Skeptical Greg 4th April 2017 11:46 AM

If Trebuchet used one for ammo, it would probably get at least 100 mpg...

MRC_Hans 4th April 2017 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trebuchet (Post 11784683)
Dang, previous response didn't go!
I didn't know about the Vette; that's interesting. But when the OP says "all new cars", it's port injection. Still much more sophisticated than the continuous injection on the Vettes of 50 years ago.

All new cars, as in 1985 new cars. Recently, they have gone todirect injection. My present car, a 2016 model, has direct injection.

For the sake of carburetors, of course, it doesn't matter.

As for what happened, yes sure, any prudent manufacturer would have seen it coming, and adapted the best they could. I just found the thought interesting.

Hans

bruto 4th April 2017 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MRC_Hans (Post 11786081)
All new cars, as in 1985 new cars. Recently, they have gone todirect injection. My present car, a 2016 model, has direct injection.

For the sake of carburetors, of course, it doesn't matter.

As for what happened, yes sure, any prudent manufacturer would have seen it coming, and adapted the best they could. I just found the thought interesting.

Hans

I think it is interesting, because it seems some did and some did not.

This kind of thing always reminds me of a famous instance in which Kueffel and Esser, once the premiere maker of slide rules in the US, commissioned a future study in 1967, of what the world would be like in 2067. Many things were predicted, but not electronic calculators.

Modified 4th April 2017 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bruto (Post 11786146)
I think it is interesting, because it seems some did and some did not.

This kind of thing always reminds me of a famous instance in which Kueffel and Esser, once the premiere maker of slide rules in the US, commissioned a future study in 1967, of what the world would be like in 2067. Many things were predicted, but not electronic calculators.

There already were electronic calculators in 1967. I suppose they didn't predict hand-held ones that cost six dollars, run on solar power, and keep working for decades.

Trebuchet 4th April 2017 06:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Modified (Post 11786279)
There already were electronic calculators in 1967. I suppose they didn't predict hand-held ones that cost six dollars, run on solar power, and keep working for decades.

Or, while costing a bit more, allow you to make phone calls and access the internet.

nelsondogg 4th April 2017 06:36 PM

I bought a pair of Chinese made knockoff weber idf carbs for my vw dune buggy last year. I paid $500 for the set with linkages and manifolds. Back in the early 90s the real ones were close to $1000 if I recall correctly. Pretty amazing that they can sell them for so cheap even though the market for them must be a fraction of the size it was back then.

BStrong 4th April 2017 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MRC_Hans (Post 11784181)
Just checked the oil on my (rather new) car. As the hood was open, looked at the air intake, which lead through an air filter and directly to the intake manifold.

I realized that my last five cars have had direct fuel injection. Direct injection suddenly took over sometimes around 1990. In a few years, all new cars had it.

Carburetors is now something for lawn mowers, small two-wheel rides, and such. What happened to all the carburetor manufacturers who suddenly lost most of their market?

Hans

There are still specialist manufactures turning out performance orientated carbs, but the only reason to use a carb now is if you're restoring an older vehicle or you're limited by racing class rules to using a specific carb type/cfm flow. Even NHRA class drag racing and NASCAR have adopted rules specifying fuel injection use in specific classes, notably the Pro Stock class.

I would not build a new motor and use a carb. The stand-alone injection systems are so good that it's crazy to even foll around dialing in a carb - the slang term that's applied to carb motors now is "metered leak"

One of my buddies recently acquired a Lamborghini Countach with a professional engineered and installed GM LS-3 crate motor with emmission legal upgrades. The benefit wasn't just in the performance increase. Because the engine swap included all the required factory original emission controls he had no problem registering the car here in DMV hell. Interesting fuel injection/distributorless ignition benefit (LS motors are crank triggered) is that the intake manifold/throttle body and injectors was simply reversed to work in the Lambo engine bay.

bruto 4th April 2017 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Modified (Post 11786279)
There already were electronic calculators in 1967. I suppose they didn't predict hand-held ones that cost six dollars, run on solar power, and keep working for decades.

Indeed, what they did not predict were cheap electronic calculators that would supplant the slide rule.

madurobob 4th April 2017 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BStrong (Post 11786374)
There are still specialist manufactures turning out performance orientated carbs, but the only reason to use a carb now is if you're restoring an older vehicle or you're limited by racing class rules to using a specific carb type/cfm flow...

Well, there is one good reason: upfront expense.

I rebuilt an '84 4WD dodge a few years ago to use as a strictly off-road toy. For under $300 I could bolt on an easy to tweak Edlebrock 600 cfm carb, or for four times that amount I could bolt in a very basic Holley TBI retrofit. If I wanted to go port injection it was an order of magnitude more expensive and time consuming.

Armitage72 6th April 2017 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bruto (Post 11786440)
Indeed, what they did not predict were cheap electronic calculators that would supplant the slide rule.


Smaller and cheaper seems to be something that a lot of people overlooked. The assumption was that things would get bigger and more expensive as they became more powerful.
I enjoy reading old science fiction with massive "advanced" technology. In Vonnegut's "EPICAC", a building-sized computer received text input as the numbers 1-26 typed into a keypad, and produced text by printing the same numbers on a paper tape. In an EC Comics story I remember, an interstellar military produced a space fighter with an onboard AI computer, which amazed the pilot because "every electronic brain I've ever seen was the size of a building."

3point14 6th April 2017 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trebuchet (Post 11784343)
Nitpick: Direct injection is for Diesels; where fuel is injected directly into the cylinder. What you're seeing is port injection.

I actually had a large repair shop refuse to work on my old pickup a few years back because it had a carb and they didn't have the knowledge or equipement any more. Even though the problem was an oil leak....


I'm pretty sure my petrol engine has direct injection. I'll have to check :)

Fast Eddie B 6th April 2017 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Armitage72 (Post 11788808)
Smaller and cheaper seems to be something that a lot of people overlooked. The assumption was that things would get bigger and more expensive as they became more powerful.

Let me recommend Isaac Asimov's "The Last Question", a short story also available on YouTube. He had some great insights as to the possible future of computers and AI.

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0Byou...RJVEg4YnM/edit

Worth a read, if you're not familiar.

3point14 6th April 2017 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B (Post 11788839)
Let me recommend Isaac Asimov's "The Last Question", a short story also available on YouTube. He had some great insights as to the possible future of computers and AI.

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0Byou...RJVEg4YnM/edit

Worth a read, if you're not familiar.


Is that the one with 'The AC'?

CORed 6th April 2017 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Armitage72 (Post 11788808)
Smaller and cheaper seems to be something that a lot of people overlooked. The assumption was that things would get bigger and more expensive as they became more powerful.
I enjoy reading old science fiction with massive "advanced" technology. In Vonnegut's "EPICAC", a building-sized computer received text input as the numbers 1-26 typed into a keypad, and produced text by printing the same numbers on a paper tape. In an EC Comics story I remember, an interstellar military produced a space fighter with an onboard AI computer, which amazed the pilot because "every electronic brain I've ever seen was the size of a building."

In science fiction from the '50's and '60's, there are many stories about computers that can do things that computers still can't do (self aware, etc.). However, the computers in those stories were nearly always room or building size pieces of hardware, owned by the government or a large corporation. No science fiction that I ever read from that era anticipated anything like desktop personal computers or smartphones, i.e. small computers that everyone would own.

CORed 6th April 2017 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3point14 (Post 11788827)
I'm pretty sure my petrol engine has direct injection. I'll have to check :)

Some do. For clarification, direct injection means the fuel injector is located in the cylinder. For gas (petrol) engines, port injection, where the injector is located outside the cylinder, near the intake valve, is still more common.

Trebuchet 6th April 2017 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3point14 (Post 11788847)
Is that the one with 'The AC'?

Yup. I was going to recommend it as well. Also check out " The Feeling Of Power." Perfect description of a 1973 calculator, written about 20 years earlier but set in the far future.

Spock Jenkins 6th April 2017 11:40 AM

According to the lady at the sample counter at the local grocery store, carburation is what the soda stream thing does to make homemade pop.

BStrong 6th April 2017 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bruto (Post 11784721)
Looking up a few, it seems that Carter went belly-up, Rochester, which was a division of GM, went sideways and got absorbed, and Holley is still out there, branching into racing carburetors, fuel injection and other stuff. Weber is still doing business in Europe but not building carburetors, as is Solex which has always also been a manufacturer of mopeds. I imagine the Japanese have managed just to go sideways too. Tillotson is now in Ireland. Walbro is still around, and I think Briggs and Stratton make their own, and imagine many of the outfits that made carbs for small engines still exist, in some form.

I had quite a time finding parts for a Tillotson on an old Sachs Dolmar chain saw, but they exist.

They live on in the Edelbrock line.

The current Edelbrock carbs are indentical to the old Carter Comp series carbs.

Dr. Keith 6th April 2017 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BStrong (Post 11786374)
One of my buddies recently acquired a Lamborghini Countach with a professional engineered and installed GM LS-3 crate motor with emmission legal upgrades.

I know that has got to be orders of magnitude better than the original motor in almost every measurable way, but it still seems like it would sound wrong. I'm not typically a purist, but these are so rare it hurt me to read that sentence.

Still, I bet it was a hoot to drive.

BStrong 6th April 2017 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by madurobob (Post 11786464)
Well, there is one good reason: upfront expense.

I rebuilt an '84 4WD dodge a few years ago to use as a strictly off-road toy. For under $300 I could bolt on an easy to tweak Edlebrock 600 cfm carb, or for four times that amount I could bolt in a very basic Holley TBI retrofit. If I wanted to go port injection it was an order of magnitude more expensive and time consuming.

You're correct. I was looking at it from a performance/tuning pov.

The installs I've done were easy, sanitary and there's nothing better than tuning an electronic engine management system with a laptop.

3point14 6th April 2017 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BStrong (Post 11789077)
You're correct. I was looking at it from a performance/tuning pov.

The installs I've done were easy, sanitary and there's nothing better than tuning an electronic engine management system with a laptop.

What? You don't like balancing carbs with a stethoscope?!

bruto 6th April 2017 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3point14 (Post 11789148)
What? You don't like balancing carbs with a stethoscope?!

You can borrow my Unisyn if you have trouble finding the stethoscope.

BStrong 11th April 2017 09:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3point14 (Post 11789148)
What? You don't like balancing carbs with a stethoscope?!

I've had all kinds of multiple carb tuning experiences, and man, there's been a few times I wanted to take a fire axe to the damn things.

Just for fun, Pics of my buddies' Countach w/ the LS transplant. He got the final OK today for California emissions compliance. Interestingly, no tailpipe test, only a review of all the required emissions appropriate to the LS:

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/102...923/bcbcdP.jpg

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/102...923/s4VSNh.jpg

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/102...924/g3ChuL.jpg

Resume 11th April 2017 10:01 PM

Carburetor = sorta controlled leak.

Trebuchet 12th April 2017 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BStrong (Post 11796064)
I've had all kinds of multiple carb tuning experiences, and man, there's been a few times I wanted to take a fire axe to the damn things.

Just for fun, Pics of my buddies' Countach w/ the LS transplant. He got the final OK today for California emissions compliance. Interestingly, no tailpipe test, only a review of all the required emissions appropriate to the LS:

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/102...923/bcbcdP.jpg

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/102...923/s4VSNh.jpg

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/102...924/g3ChuL.jpg

Looks great but can't possibly sound right, even if, as I suspect, it sounds good.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk


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