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-   -   Having a stroke while black (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=354788)

SuburbanTurkey 13th October 2021 10:21 AM

Having a stroke while black
 
Quote:

Al Copeland was driving on Mass. Ave in Boston one night when he started to feel nauseous and realized he needed to pull over right away.

He didn't know it in that moment, but the then-62-year-old was having a stroke.

"I was afraid," he recalls now. "I say, well, at least if anything happens to me, somebody will find me."

Boston police did find Copeland slumped in his car and barely conscious in front of the Berklee College of Music. But instead of calling an ambulance, they arrested him. They wrote in their report that they smelled alcohol, even though Al says he hasn’t had a drink since 1995.
Boston police delayed his medical care for over 5 hours while he went untreated in their jail, undoubtedly making the injury suffered from the stroke much more severe.

The city has paid out 1.3 million to compensate the man for BPD's callousness.

Of course, local hospitals took the police's word at face value, delaying appropriate medical care for another 7 hrs:

Quote:

It didn’t get better when Al got to Tufts Medical Center. Police records show that medical providers there also assumed Al was drunk and left him in the emergency room for seven more hours.

It was only when Valerie finally tracked down her husband that doctors confirmed he had no drugs or alcohol in his system. He wasn’t drunk. He’d had a stroke.

But by then, the damage was done. Al had to remain in the hospital for weeks and then move to rehab. He had to give up his job with the MBTA. And he is still having trouble walking or even enjoying a meal.
https://www.wbur.org/news/2021/10/12...uct-settlement

plague311 13th October 2021 11:27 AM

Kind of a few weird things here as well. The Copelands never actually sued the Boston PD. Their lawyer just contacted them and the city offered them the $1.3mm

In all honesty, that doesn't seem like all that much to me. His hospital bills alone (he spent months in rehab) would have to be in the 10's of thousands.

The internal investigation also didn't fault the officers for thinking he was a drunk. They only faulted them for not getting him faster care after the police left him to take a piss and he fell and hit his head. After that they let him lay there for 5 hours before he threw up. Then they called the paramedics.

All-in-all negligence is pretty rife in this one.

Warp12 13th October 2021 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey (Post 13627951)
Boston police delayed his medical care for over 5 hours while he went untreated in their jail, undoubtedly making the injury suffered from the stroke much more severe.

The city has paid out 1.3 million to compensate the man for BPD's callousness.

Of course, local hospitals took the police's word at face value, delaying appropriate medical care for another 7 hrs:

But what does it have to do with him being black?

SuburbanTurkey 13th October 2021 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by plague311 (Post 13628043)
Kind of a few weird things here as well. The Copelands never actually sued the Boston PD. Their lawyer just contacted them and the city offered them the $1.3mm

In all honesty, that doesn't seem like all that much to me. His hospital bills alone (he spent months in rehab) would have to be in the 10's of thousands.

The internal investigation also didn't fault the officers for thinking he was a drunk. They only faulted them for not getting him faster care after the police left him to take a piss and he fell and hit his head. After that they let him lay there for 5 hours before he threw up. Then they called the paramedics.

All-in-all negligence is pretty rife in this one.

A city cutting a deal when they know they'll lose is pretty common. It's better for everyone to not run up legal fees and just cut a check.

Yes, it's noteworthy that the police officers involved would not be punished, especially considering their claim to "smell alcohol" is almost certainly a total fabrication.

Checkmite 13th October 2021 11:30 AM

A black man sitting in a car on the side of the road? Obviously he must be crime-ing.

Warp12 13th October 2021 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Checkmite (Post 13628049)
A black man sitting in a car on the side of the road? Obviously he must be crime-ing.

Once again, what does this situation have to do with him being black?

plague311 13th October 2021 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey (Post 13628047)
A city cutting a deal when they know they'll lose is pretty common. It's better for everyone to not run up legal fees.

Yes, it's noteworthy that the police officers involved would not be punished, especially considering their claim to "smell alcohol" is almost certainly a total fabrication.

Generally them cutting a deal is in response to a lawsuit though. There wasn't anything filed at all with the courts. The city just threw them an offer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warp12 (Post 13628044)
But what does it have to do with him being black?

That's the question posed. Did they treat him like **** because he's black? Did they assume he was drinking just because he was black? Did they leave him in a cell after they watched him fall and hit his head because he was black? Did they make assumptions based on his color? Tough to tell.

Warp12 13th October 2021 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by plague311 (Post 13628055)
That's the question posed. Did they treat him like **** because he's black? Did they assume he was drinking just because he was black? Did they leave him in a cell after they watched him fall and hit his head because he was black? Did they make assumptions based on his color? Tough to tell.

To go one step further...there is nothing to suggest race was a factor, as best I can tell. When there is no supporting evidence, we don't usually say "tough to tell".

SuburbanTurkey 13th October 2021 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by plague311 (Post 13628055)
Generally them cutting a deal is in response to a lawsuit though. There wasn't anything filed at all with the courts. The city just threw them an offer.

=

The man had a lawyer. I'm assuming he sent a demand letter, or at least had a meeting with the city in which the threat of a lawsuit was obvious if they didn't settle.

Plenty of legal dispute are settled before anyone files with the court.

plague311 13th October 2021 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warp12 (Post 13628057)
To go one step further...there is nothing to suggest race was a factor, as best I can tell. When there is no supporting evidence, we don't usually say "tough to tell".

LoL You should read the paraplegic thread then. There's no supporting evidence he is a drug dealer yet you all won't shut up about it.

In this case, the way he was treated in comparison to others would be the evidence. I don't know how what those stats are like in Boston. I know that according to a ton of black baseball players Boston is racist as hell.

That's why I said, tough to tell. There's no real way to prove it.

plague311 13th October 2021 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey (Post 13628058)
The man had a lawyer. I'm assuming he sent a demand letter, or at least had a meeting with the city in which the threat of a lawsuit was obvious if they didn't settle.

Plenty of legal dispute are settled before anyone files with the court.

*shrug* Maybe. I don't know. The article I read only mentioned that the lawyer had contacted the city. It didn't provide more context.

Warp12 13th October 2021 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by plague311 (Post 13628076)
LoL You should read the paraplegic thread then. There's no supporting evidence he is a drug dealer yet you all won't shut up about it.

There isn't even reasonable suspicion in this case, that racism was involved. Then again, there isn't any in the paraplegic thread, either. Seems like a pattern.

plague311 13th October 2021 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warp12 (Post 13628082)
There isn't even reasonable suspicion in this case, that racism was involved. Then again, there isn't any in the paraplegic thread, either. Seems like a pattern.

You're right, there isn't reasonable suspicion he was dealing drugs in the paraplegic case. This is definitely a pattern.

In any case, the city settled. I would like more details on that because I'd think it would be more.

Bob001 13th October 2021 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warp12 (Post 13628052)
Once again, what does this situation have to do with him being black?

It has to do with the assumption the cops made, and whether they would have made the same assumption about about a white guy. In this particular case, most people would think the default position is that if the cops find a guy barely conscious by the side of the road, you call an ambulance first, then decide what to do with him. And apparently they didn't give him the breath test that any cop can give to any suspected drunk driver.

Add to that the fact that the Boston police have a long history of racist behavior.
https://www.wbur.org/news/2021/05/25...-larry-ellison

Warp12 13th October 2021 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob001 (Post 13628139)
It has to do with the assumption the cops made, and whether they would have made the same assumption about about a white guy. In this particular case, most people would think the default position is that if the cops find a guy barely conscious by the side of the road, you call an ambulance first, then decide what to do with him. And apparently they didn't give him the breath test that any cop can give to any suspected drunk driver.

So, you agree, no evidence of racism has been displayed in this case, then.

Cool. Nice change. :thumbsup:

Bob001 13th October 2021 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warp12 (Post 13628140)
So, you agree, no evidence of racism has been displayed in this case, then.

Cool. Nice change. :thumbsup:

You seem to think racism requires yelling the n-word at top volume. That's rarely the way it works.

Warp12 13th October 2021 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob001 (Post 13628146)
You seem to think racism requires yelling the n word at top volume. That's rarely the way it works.

You seem to think that the way it works is that no evidence is required to prove that it applies to an individual case.

plague311 13th October 2021 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warp12 (Post 13628148)
You seem to think that the way it works is that no evidence is required to prove that it applies to an individual case.

No evidence is required to prove a guy is a drug dealer. What's the difference here? Why are the cops given a free pass?

I don't know if this is racist or not. I only know it's extremely negligent. Even if they found a man passed out on the side of the road, and it was from alcohol, the correct answer isn't to slam his ass in lockup, imo.

It's to call an ambulance, see if he has alcohol poisoning, ask him questions to see if he smells like alcohol or is too intoxicated to speak\move\etc.

How did they get him in the car?

smartcooky 13th October 2021 01:48 PM

But the real questions haven't been asked yet, like...

How fast was he moving toward the officers?

Did the officers claim they were threatened by an unconscious black man?

Did he break an officer's leg when he fell and hit his head?

Was he being aggressive, or not following police instructions while he was unconscious?

Inquiring minds want to know!

sir drinks-a-lot 13th October 2021 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by plague311 (Post 13628156)
No evidence is required to prove a guy is a drug dealer. What's the difference here?

I don't think anyone has proven the guy in the other thread is a drug dealer, we've just pointed out some very strong (and very obvious) reasons to suspect that he is.

/derail

smartcooky 13th October 2021 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warp12 (Post 13628148)
You seem to think that the way it works is that no evidence is required to prove that it applies to an individual case.

He is black. Given the police record of dealing with unarmed black people...

Looking out the window of your own home (Atatiana Jefferson)
Eating ice cream while watching TV at home (Botham Jean)
Shopping at Walmart (John Crawford)
Sleeping in your own bedroom (Brionna Taylor)
Walking home (Mike Brown)
Yelling on a sidewalk (Eric Garner)
Standing next to your car (Terence Crutcher)
Having car problems (Sandra Bland)
Asking for help (Jonathan Ferrell)
Holding a hairbrush (Sean Bell)
Holding a wallet (Amadou Diallo)
Holding a cellphone (Stephon Clark)
Saying "I can't breathe" (George Floyd)
Asking a question (Randy Evans)
Having air fresheners hanging from your rear view mirror (Daunte Wright).
Reading a book (Keith Scott)
Carrying a bag of sandwiches into your house (Casey Goodson)
Visiting a friend (Andre Hill)

... its the only evidence needed!

Warp12 13th October 2021 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smartcooky (Post 13628214)
He is black.

...

... its the only evidence needed!

LMAO. Of course. :thumbsup:

sir drinks-a-lot 13th October 2021 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warp12 (Post 13628230)
LMAO. Of course. :thumbsup:

Welcome to the ISF. :)

Trebuchet 13th October 2021 03:56 PM

Shorter racists of JREF ISF:
All blacks are criminal thugs.
No Cops Are Bastards.

Warp12 13th October 2021 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trebuchet (Post 13628324)
Shorter racists of JREF ISF:
All blacks are criminal thugs.
No Cops Are Bastards.

Huh? :boggled:

sir drinks-a-lot 13th October 2021 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warp12 (Post 13628328)
Huh? :boggled:

I'm glad it's not just me who is :boggled:

autumn1971 13th October 2021 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warp12 (Post 13628057)
To go one step further...there is nothing to suggest race was a factor, as best I can tell. When there is no supporting evidence, we don't usually say "tough to tell".

Happy 2nd birthday.

Or happy being so obtuse that you do not acknowledge the forest because "I can't see through these damn trees!"

autumn1971 13th October 2021 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warp12 (Post 13628140)
So, you agree, no evidence of racism has been displayed in this case, then.

Cool. Nice change. :thumbsup:

Happy actual day of your birth.

welcome to the real world.

Warp12 13th October 2021 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by autumn1971 (Post 13628377)
Happy 2nd birthday.

Or happy being so obtuse that you do not acknowledge the forest because "I can't see through these damn trees!"

What is the evidence of racism?

autumn1971 13th October 2021 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot (Post 13628211)
I don't think anyone has proven the guy in the other thread is a drug dealer, we've just pointed out some very strong (and very obvious) reasons to suspect that he is.

/derail

After the fact

autumn1971 13th October 2021 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warp12 (Post 13628394)
What is the evidence of racism?

That African-Americans are routinely denied medical treatment when slightly paler folks aren't.

Do the basic google research a ten-year-old can do and get back to me.

Warp12 13th October 2021 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by autumn1971 (Post 13628404)
That African-Americans are routinely denied medical treatment when slightly paler folks aren't.

Do the basic google research a ten-year-old can do and get back to me.

LMAO. Any evidence of racism in this case?

sir drinks-a-lot 13th October 2021 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warp12 (Post 13628409)
LMAO. Any evidence of racism in this case?

Apparently the evidence can be found by doing a Google search that any ten year old can do.
Edited by Agatha:  Edited breach of rule 12

rockinkt 13th October 2021 05:32 PM

Fact: Some people are idiots.
Fact: Cops are people.
Fact: Some cops are idiots. (I worked with a few).
Fact: Poor training results in poor results.
Fact: It isn't always about race!

This type of situation has been played out all over North America many, many times and will continue to do so until they stop training cops to follow procedure and start training them to think for themselves. Of course - mistakes will still occur. That's a fact of life.

From my observations - cases like this usually involve people experiencing mental confusion and sleepiness or physical symptoms like trembling, shaking, and abnormal perspiration due to complications arising from diabetes and cops mistaking that for signs of impairment.
Of course - head injuries also create the same type of symptoms but sometimes have the added confounding issue of violent behaviour.

A man named Ron Tabak was riding his bike to a friends house for dinner and was either sideswiped by a car or fell and struck his head. He was found laying on the ground and taken to a local hospital. Vancouver City Police came into contact with him after the hospital called about a violent patient.

The hospital staff said they could find nothing to cause his violence. Between the hospital staff and cops they made the decision that he must have been high on drugs or stoned because he was slurring his words and acting erratic. His condition worsened in cells and after a few hours he was taken to back to the hospital. After blood tests were done showing no impairment - a brain scan was done and a large blood clot was found in his brain. He unfortunately died before surgery could be performed.

Ron was a famous rock star (Prism) who was white and rich, and racism had absolutely nothing to do with this tragic case.
The cops felt horrible. One resigned voluntarily even though no blame was attached for their actions. It was a tragic error by the hospital nurses and doctors and police.
Vancouver police started receiving specialized training in doing quick checks for sign of injury or diabetes before or after arrest - but the situation still occurs. Why? Because cops are people and people make mistakes.
Life is not perfect - and neither are cops.

Do cases like this arise due to some form of prejudice? You bet! But - IMHO - only a very narrow minded bigot who hates police; Or, a self aggrandizing social justice warrior, would assume the reason for all cases of screw-ups is because of racism.

Random 13th October 2021 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smartcooky (Post 13628214)
He is black. Given the police record of dealing with unarmed black people...

Looking out the window of your own home (Atatiana Jefferson)
Eating ice cream while watching TV at home (Botham Jean)
Shopping at Walmart (John Crawford)
Sleeping in your own bedroom (Brionna Taylor)
Walking home (Mike Brown)
Yelling on a sidewalk (Eric Garner)
Standing next to your car (Terence Crutcher)
Having car problems (Sandra Bland)
Asking for help (Jonathan Ferrell)
Holding a hairbrush (Sean Bell)
Holding a wallet (Amadou Diallo)
Holding a cellphone (Stephon Clark)
Saying "I can't breathe" (George Floyd)
Asking a question (Randy Evans)
Having air fresheners hanging from your rear view mirror (Daunte Wright).
Reading a book (Keith Scott)
Carrying a bag of sandwiches into your house (Casey Goodson)
Visiting a friend (Andre Hill)

... its the only evidence needed!

You left out:

Lying on your back with your hands above your head in broad daylight shouting that there is no gun, just a toy truck (Charles Kinsey)

smartcooky 14th October 2021 02:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockinkt (Post 13628467)
Do cases like this arise due to some form of prejudice? You bet! But - IMHO - only a very narrow minded bigot who hates police; Or, a self aggrandizing social justice warrior, would assume the reason for all cases of screw-ups is because of racism.

I base my opinion on what I have observed, and on the appaling track record of white cops killing (mostly unarmed) black men.

Hlafordlaes 14th October 2021 03:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warp12 (Post 13628409)
LMAO. Any evidence of racism in this case?

What is your standard for evidence? Let's go to Holmes, our consulting detective, for advice. Absent any evidence of any kind that the officers were well motivated to act in a negligent manner, in spite of training and experience, and to forego basic due diligence, one may conclude their failure lies among one of several possible explanations, all damning. When all other alternatives have been eliminated, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the case ("You mean, some white men are baddies?" :scared:)

Still wavering? In Silver Blaze, the solution was not in the physical evidence available, but in the evidence that was missing (famously, "the dog did not bark"). In a nutshell, scenario testing led to the solution. Once again, and similar to before, we find the failure to act in a logical, humane or due manner, as officers of the law and as fellow citizens (failure to succor), is damning.

As we explore the cultural context, perhaps to uncover some alternate explanation, we instead find a cultural narrative that has lasted since the "Age of Discovery" (colonialism) until today, with each successive generation creating policy out of the same reasoning, only changing in form given external conditions. Every generation, however, finds they are blameless, and all evils were done by "somebody else". We also find, no surprise, that none less than Hitler admired the USA for its highly efficient "final solution" for native populations, deeds worthy of emulation that he improved upon. This greatly increases the suspicion that Holmes is indeed correct.

Oh, whatever is a modern trickster to turn to? Race? Unscientific. IQ as basis for equality? Careful what you ask for, as the West is currently experiencing a negative Flynn effect, with declining scores from Norway (fons et origo of "perfect" immigrants?) to the USA.

Dr. Keith 14th October 2021 04:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warp12 (Post 13628409)
LMAO. Any evidence of racism in this case?

With the evidence he was drunk?

SuburbanTurkey 14th October 2021 05:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockinkt (Post 13628467)
Fact: Some people are idiots.
Fact: Cops are people.
Fact: Some cops are idiots. (I worked with a few).
Fact: Poor training results in poor results.
Fact: It isn't always about race!

This type of situation has been played out all over North America many, many times and will continue to do so until they stop training cops to follow procedure and start training them to think for themselves. Of course - mistakes will still occur. That's a fact of life.

From my observations - cases like this usually involve people experiencing mental confusion and sleepiness or physical symptoms like trembling, shaking, and abnormal perspiration due to complications arising from diabetes and cops mistaking that for signs of impairment.
Of course - head injuries also create the same type of symptoms but sometimes have the added confounding issue of violent behaviour.

A man named Ron Tabak was riding his bike to a friends house for dinner and was either sideswiped by a car or fell and struck his head. He was found laying on the ground and taken to a local hospital. Vancouver City Police came into contact with him after the hospital called about a violent patient.

The hospital staff said they could find nothing to cause his violence. Between the hospital staff and cops they made the decision that he must have been high on drugs or stoned because he was slurring his words and acting erratic. His condition worsened in cells and after a few hours he was taken to back to the hospital. After blood tests were done showing no impairment - a brain scan was done and a large blood clot was found in his brain. He unfortunately died before surgery could be performed.

Ron was a famous rock star (Prism) who was white and rich, and racism had absolutely nothing to do with this tragic case.
The cops felt horrible. One resigned voluntarily even though no blame was attached for their actions. It was a tragic error by the hospital nurses and doctors and police.
Vancouver police started receiving specialized training in doing quick checks for sign of injury or diabetes before or after arrest - but the situation still occurs. Why? Because cops are people and people make mistakes.
Life is not perfect - and neither are cops.

Do cases like this arise due to some form of prejudice? You bet! But - IMHO - only a very narrow minded bigot who hates police; Or, a self aggrandizing social justice warrior, would assume the reason for all cases of screw-ups is because of racism.

Maybe the cop was the one having a stroke, since he was smelling alcohol that didn't exist in reality.

I will concede it's entirely possible that this cop wasn't racist and would have also lied in an arrest report involving a person who wasn't black.

dann 14th October 2021 05:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey (Post 13627951)
Quote:

Al Copeland was driving on Mass. Ave in Boston one night when he started to feel nauseous and realized he needed to pull over right away.


If this had been "while being a CIA agent or a diplomat," it would have been a sure sign that he was being attacked by a pulsed microwave energy weapon.


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