International Skeptics Forum

International Skeptics Forum (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/forumindex.php)
-   USA Politics (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=6)
-   -   Continuation Donald Trump has 'dangerous mental illness' say psychiatry experts at Yale... Pt 3 (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=341507)

Bob001 17th January 2020 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xjx388 (Post 12957753)
.....
I will grant that as evidence that Trump is an *******. But Mental illness =/= being an *******.

Again, you don't seem willing to acknowledge that being an ******* can be evidence of a severe psychiatric disorder. It's way more than a social infraction.

xjx388 17th January 2020 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob001 (Post 12957763)
Again, you don't seem willing to acknowledge that being an ******* can be evidence of a severe psychiatric disorder. It's way more than a social infraction.

Ok, let's grant that being an ******* can be a sign of mental disorder (which I think is a very unfair and stigmatizing way of putting it: "Man, that autistic kid is a bit of an *******, isn't he?" seems a bit of a dick move, but whatever). It does not follow that evidence of being an ******* is therefore evidence of a mental disorder. It can also be -and is most of the time- evidence of a normal person who is an *******.

Dr. Allen Frances writes alot about medicalizing normality -the inflation of diagnostic categories so that normal grief becomes Major Depression, just about everyone would qualify as ADD etc. That's a problem he sees with psychiatry as an institution. However, I see a much bigger problem amongst the lay audience: Using mental health terms to describe people and behavior one simply doesn't like. I think it's something we've all done and you are doing it here. Something that needs to change in society, I think.

jimbob 22nd January 2020 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xjx388 (Post 12955720)
Not really...see, I assumed that you guys were trying to tie Trumpís ignorance to his dangerous mental illness. Silly me for thinking that and trying to keep to the topic.

Like I said general Trump bashing is óó->

How about his stating that the wheel was invented in the US? That's abnormal.

Skeptic Ginger 22nd January 2020 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3point14 (Post 12957142)
It's interesting watching this debate, which has increasingly become xjx388 telling everyone else that 'they're not allowed to say that'.

The professional psyches? -- they're not allowed - goldwater
Anyone not a psyche doesn't have the right either, we've now learned. So that covers, er, everyone.
When that doesn't work it's 'Off topic!! Off topic!!

It's very telling

Nice summary. :thumbsup:

theprestige 22nd January 2020 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimbob (Post 12962973)
How about his stating that the wheel was invented in the US? That's abnormal.

That seems like a profoundly disingenuous reading of that statement.

Now more than ever I want to see the Yale group's methodology and data set.

Skeptic Ginger 22nd January 2020 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12963014)
That seems like a profoundly disingenuous reading of that statement. ...

Dang, I have to agree with you. Here's the quote:
Quote:

"They say ‘a wall is medieval.’ Well, so is a wheel. A wheel is older than a wall," Trump said. "The wheel is older than the wall, you know that? There are some things that work. You know what? A wheel works and a wall works. Nothing like a wall."
It's stupid enough without having to add to it.



Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12963014)
Now more than ever I want to see the Yale group's methodology and data set.

You could get the book. Libraries have it if you don't want to pay for it.

The Dangerous Case of Donald Trump: 27 Psychiatrists and Mental Health Experts Assess a President

Bob001 22nd January 2020 08:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger (Post 12963173)
....
You could get the book. Libraries have it if you don't want to pay for it.
The Dangerous Case of Donald Trump: 27 Psychiatrists and Mental Health Experts Assess a President


Be sure to get the updated 2019 edition.
https://www.amazon.com/Dangerous-Cas.../dp/1250212863

Skeptic Ginger 22nd January 2020 08:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob001 (Post 12963403)
Be sure to get the updated 2019 edition.
https://www.amazon.com/Dangerous-Cas.../dp/1250212863

I put it on hold at my library. When I get it I can post if there is supporting evidence or just op-ed summaries.

jimbob 23rd January 2020 01:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12963014)
That seems like a profoundly disingenuous reading of that statement.

Now more than ever I want to see the Yale group's methodology and data set.

What makes you think that? He was discussing US innovation and mentioned some examples, including the wheel. Obviously it wasn't as bad as if he was deliberately talking about that, but it is telling that he's losing his train of thought an within a few seconds d ends up just listing inventions - I'd guess by word association.


His speech is getting more like the, " presss the middle word in your autosuggest" game

Bob001 23rd January 2020 07:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimbob (Post 12963561)
What makes you think that? He was discussing US innovation and mentioned some examples, including the wheel. Obviously it wasn't as bad as if he was deliberately talking about that, but it is telling that he's losing his train of thought an within a few seconds d ends up just listing inventions - I'd guess by word association.
.....


His obvious deterioration has been widely noted and discussed:
Quote:

"No one knows what to expect from him anymore," one former White House official, who spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss internal conversations about the president, told Insider.

They added: "His mood changes from one minute to the next based on some headline or tweet, and the next thing you know his entire schedule gets tossed out the window because he's losing his s---."
https://www.businessinsider.com/trum...-dorian-2019-9


Quote:

Todayís Trump is not just more prone to misspeaking and stumbling, he is also more overtly confrontational more of the time, more immersed in a daily cycle of Presidential punditry, and more casually incendiary with his words and sentiments.
https://www.newyorker.com/news/lette...august-twitter

Stacyhs 23rd January 2020 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob001 (Post 12963739)

More from the Business Insider link:

Quote:

...one person who was close to Trump's legal team during the Russia investigation told Insider his public statements were "nothing compared to what he's like behind closed doors."

"He's like a bull seeing red," this person added. "There's just no getting through to him, and you can kiss your plans for the day goodbye because you're basically stuck looking after a 4-year-old now."

Skeptic Ginger 25th January 2020 12:23 AM

My copy of the book is now at the library. I'll pick it up tomorrow.

Meanwhile, the House hearing discussing the second article shows Trump's classic narcissism.

Ladewig 25th January 2020 02:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimbob (Post 12963561)
What makes you think that? He was discussing US innovation and mentioned some examples, including the wheel. Obviously it wasn't as bad as if he was deliberately talking about that, but it is telling that he's losing his train of thought an within a few seconds d ends up just listing inventions - I'd guess by word association.


His speech is getting more like the, " presss the middle word in your autosuggest" game

Iím more concerned by ďhe does good at rockets.Ē

Ladewig 25th January 2020 03:11 AM

Actually, more seriously, I’m more concerned with his completely lack of self-awareness.

Leading up to the impeachment he told Republican Congressfolk, you may be up for a tough re-election, the RNC can provide you with needed funds if, you know, you are, shall we say, part of the team.
But when Bloomberg says that if he doesn’t get the nomination, he’ll donate money to the person who does get nominated, President Trump complains that such an offer is a problem because now the other candidates will go easy on Bloomberg in debates. And secondarily, the President has a hard time grasping the concept that someone might make an offer to one or more rival nomination candidates and then follow through with the offer even though the winning candidate said harsh things about the person making the offer. I’ve met thirteen-year-olds who understand cooperation, teamwork, grace, and honor better than President Trump.

Ladewig 25th January 2020 03:26 AM

And if I can quote Bill Maher.

Try to imagine President Trump losing the election and saying, “The people have spoken and they have chosen my opponent. I offer my sincere congratulations and look forward to working with the transition team. I want to thank all the people who worked long hours on my re-election campaign.”

Is there even an iota of evidence that President Trump would ever say those words?

But don’t say he’s mentally unbalanced!
He may be constitutionally incapable of admitting even the tiniest of errors or admitting that he failed at something (he still describes himself as a great casino owner); he may respond to any criticism by insisting that his actions are literally perfect, but whatever you do don’t speculate about how he may be suffering from a mental disorder.

jimbob 25th January 2020 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ladewig (Post 12966206)
Iím more concerned by ďhe does good at rockets.Ē

Well that is truish. Space-X has some impressive competences in spaceflight.

Steve 25th January 2020 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimbob (Post 12966351)
Well that is truish. Space-X has some impressive competences in spaceflight.

So he does good at financing rockets. No actual knowledge of rockets required.

jimbob 25th January 2020 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve (Post 12966363)
So he does good at financing rockets. No actual knowledge of rockets required.

I actually think that's unfair on Trump. :jaw-dropp

Musk has utilised some of his wealth to develop a company that is competitive in the space business. I can accept Trump thinking that is "good with rockets"

Kennedy was instrumental in getting the US to the Moon, but he had zero rocketry knowledge as far as I am aware.
However his comment about the wheel, to me looks like he started listing US inventions and then his mind drifted and finished listing inventions. That's not normal, but could be expected if Trump is mentally declining.

Steve 25th January 2020 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimbob (Post 12966404)
I actually think that's unfair on Trump. :jaw-dropp

Musk has utilised some of his wealth to develop a company that is competitive in the space business. I can accept Trump thinking that is "good with rockets"

Kennedy was instrumental in getting the US to the Moon, but he had zero rocketry knowledge as far as I am aware.
However his comment about the wheel, to me looks like he started listing US inventions and then his mind drifted and finished listing inventions. That's not normal, but could be expected if Trump is mentally declining.

Not sure how I should read this so I will just clarify. Musk is the one who finances rockets and who does not need practical knowledge of.

jimbob 25th January 2020 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve (Post 12966424)
Not sure how I should read this so I will just clarify. Musk is the one who finances rockets and who does not need practical knowledge of.

Yes, but he has used his wealth to create an aerospace company with expertise that BAe or Northrop, for example don't have (Boeing's X37 is probably ahead of it).

theprestige 25th January 2020 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ladewig (Post 12966211)
And if I can quote Bill Maher.

Try to imagine President Trump losing the election and saying, ďThe people have spoken and they have chosen my opponent. I offer my sincere congratulations and look forward to working with the transition team. I want to thank all the people who worked long hours on my re-election campaign.Ē

Is there even an iota of evidence that President Trump would ever say those words?

But donít say heís mentally unbalanced!
He may be constitutionally incapable of admitting even the tiniest of errors or admitting that he failed at something (he still describes himself as a great casino owner); he may respond to any criticism by insisting that his actions are literally perfect, but whatever you do donít speculate about how he may be suffering from a mental disorder.

If you're not being written by Aaron Sorkin, it's evidence of mental illness?

---

Meanwhile, it's funny how the DSM is something any layperson can read and apply, but the APA's ethical guidelines are inscrutable to the lay audience and should only be interpreted by healthcare professionals.

jimbob 25th January 2020 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12966431)
If you're not being written by Aaron Sorkin, it's evidence of mental illness?

---

Meanwhile, it's funny how the DSM is something any layperson can read and apply, but the APA's ethical guidelines are inscrutable to the lay audience and should only be interpreted by healthcare professionals.


Now that seems like a profoundly disingenuous reading of the arguments in this thread. Meanwhile, can you explain why you thought my statement in the conversation below was "profoundly disingenuous"?




Quote:

Originally Posted by jimbob (Post 12962973)
How about his stating that the wheel was invented in the US? That's abnormal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12963014)
That seems like a profoundly disingenuous reading of that statement.

Now more than ever I want to see the Yale group's methodology and data set.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimbob (Post 12963561)
What makes you think that? He was discussing US innovation and mentioned some examples, including the wheel. Obviously it wasn't as bad as if he was deliberately talking about that, but it is telling that he's losing his train of thought an within a few seconds d ends up just listing inventions - I'd guess by word association.


His speech is getting more like the, " press the middle word in your autosuggest" game


Cabbage 25th January 2020 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12966431)
If you're not being written by Aaron Sorkin, it's evidence of mental illness?


The only thing that question demonstrates is that you are quite adept at strawmanning the positions of others.

Kudos!

Skeptic Ginger 26th January 2020 12:26 AM

I have a copy. It's quite long and will take some time to read.

Essentially it consists of 27 separate essays by different professionals, each with a fairly thorough bibliography and citations.

It is a professional work with some popular titles like "Trump's Daddy Issues". I'm going to read that one first. :p

Ladewig 26th January 2020 05:27 AM

I wasn’t focusing on Musk’s competencies, I was focusing on “he does good at.”

As for our president, I think considering oneself a stable genius who never makes mistakes, who can’t even admit that one’s typos are errors, who screams at people who point out mistakes, who believes one is the most populat president in US history despite having net approval value that has never been positive, and who asserts one knows more about everything than anyone else in the country, is reason enough to swing by the doctor’s office and get some testing done.

Bob001 26th January 2020 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger (Post 12966960)
I have a copy. It's quite long and will take some time to read.

Essentially it consists of 27 separate essays by different professionals, each with a fairly thorough bibliography and citations.

It is a professional work with some popular titles like "Trump's Daddy Issues". I'm going to read that one first. :p


You've got the original version. The 2019 revision includes 10 additional essays and other updates based on what Trump has actually done during his first two years in office.
https://www.amazon.com/Dangerous-Cas...63/ref=sr_1_1?
https://dangerouscase.org/

xjx388 26th January 2020 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger (Post 12966960)
I have a copy. It's quite long and will take some time to read.

Essentially it consists of 27 separate essays by different professionals, each with a fairly thorough bibliography and citations.

It is a professional work with some popular titles like "Trump's Daddy Issues". I'm going to read that one first. :p



Itís not a professional work; itís a popular work. It isnít designed for professionals; itís designed for lay audiences.

The bibliography and citations? There are some references to peer reviewed journals or studies but absolutely none that support the scientific basis behind the non-existent methodology of diagnosing people based on public domain information. You will find a lot of references to the popular press, blogs, online news outlets, etc. A lot of them quoting each other, as if thatís meaningful.

We are told in one essay that it isnít about mental illness; in many other essays, itís all about mental illness. A lot of question begging on that subject. A lot of using the public record to make their case. A lot of reference to checklists for psychopathy, propensity to violence, etc.

In short, a lot of exactly the kinds of things the APA has stood firm against.

Itís a political hatchet job in the guise of psychological analysis.

Perhaps the ďbestĒ chapter in the book is the one I mentioned before: itís about dangerousness, not mental illness, by Dr Gilligan. It almost works as a professional speaking as a concerned citizen but there are too many references to the expertise of the author and his colleagues. And I shouldnít forget to mention the Godwinning.

That ďTrumpís Daddy issuesĒ chapter? Written by a guy who is, perhaps a great storyteller (he is noted as ďan accomplished singer-songwriter and storytellerĒ) but I canít imagine his MD makes him a mind reader. The extensive data he reviewed? Two essays from the New York Times and the Guardian.

Skeptic Ginger 26th January 2020 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xjx388 (Post 12967292)
It’s not a professional work; it’s a popular work. It isn’t designed for professionals; it’s designed for lay audiences.

That's your opinion and you haven't even seen it. No it's not a peer reviewed journal article. That doesn't invalidate it unless you already have an extreme bias about it.

xjx388 26th January 2020 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger (Post 12967298)
That's your opinion and you haven't even seen it. No it's not a peer reviewed journal article. That doesn't invalidate it unless you already have an extreme bias about it.

I own that book, so I have indeed seen it.

And yes, I do have a bias against the book. Likewise. your own opinion (if you find it favorable) wonít validate the book because of your bias in favoring the premise.

The best we can do is attempt to recognize those biases and be fair.

jimbob 26th January 2020 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ladewig (Post 12967045)
I wasn’t focusing on Musk’s competencies, I was focusing on “he does good at.”

Ah, I'd just thought of that as informal use of language. I only get concerned about language ability when the intent is hidden - for example several conspiracy theorists whose grammar lead me to think they have some disorder in thinking.

What Crank.net used to describe as "illucid".

Quote:

As for our president, I think considering oneself a stable genius who never makes mistakes, who can’t even admit that one’s typos are errors, who screams at people who point out mistakes, who believes one is the most populat president in US history despite having net approval value that has never been positive, and who asserts one knows more about everything than anyone else in the country, is reason enough to swing by the doctor’s office and get some testing done.
Agreed.

Bob001 26th January 2020 09:12 PM

A helpful reminder that Trump still has his thumb on the button:
Quote:

Yet under existing law, the President of the United States can start a nuclear war without provocation, without consultation, and without warning. It boggles the rational mind. I fear that, in the age of Trump, the cooler heads and strategic doctrine that we once relied upon as our last best hope against the unthinkable seem less reassuring than ever.
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/...-the-bomb.html

Stacyhs 27th January 2020 12:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob001 (Post 12967796)
A helpful reminder that Trump still has his thumb on the button:

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/...-the-bomb.html

Trump is so impulsive, so immature, so reactive, so narcissistic that I truly think he's capable of pushing that button unless someone physically restrains him.

Bob001 6th February 2020 11:18 AM

Trump is now ranting at length, including about Hillary's emails and the FBI. How can anyone watch this and not conclude he's not deranged? (And what medical condition is the cause of his continuous sniffing and snorting?)
https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...e-time%2Fpromo

[ETA to repair double negative.]

TragicMonkey 6th February 2020 11:23 AM

The news is saying that Medical Science has downgraded Trump's brainality from "two tacos short of a combo platter" to "architectural oversight regarding staircase height comparative to second floor entry point". If it reaches "nocturnal flying mammals infesting ecclesiastical rooftop structure" they'll issue a Twitter alert.

carlitos 6th February 2020 11:36 AM

The now-defunct Splinter News used to have regular updates on Trump's brain status. There were a lot of food metaphors.

Examples:
Trump Brain Status: Truck Stop Hot Dog
Trump Brain Status: Noble Peas
Trump Brain Status: Turkey, Roasted

TragicMonkey 6th February 2020 11:38 AM

He's still got a firmer grasp on reality than Aunt Becky, anyway. If he starts showing up at yoga class in a Crime Hat we'll know it's time to panic.

Belz... 6th February 2020 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob001 (Post 12980560)
Trump is now ranting at length, including about Hillary's emails and the FBI. How can anyone watch this and not conclude he's not deranged? (And what medical condition is the cause of his continuous sniffing and snorting?)
https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...e-time%2Fpromo

I think you made a double negative by error.

Bob001 6th February 2020 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Belz... (Post 12980596)
I think you made a double negative by error.

Excellent catch. Too many nots. Repaired: "How can anyone watch this and not conclude he's deranged?" (Or "How can anyone watch this and conclude he's not deranged?)

Or "How can anyone watch this and not be scared (wit)less?"

jimbob 6th February 2020 12:58 PM

Anyone else notice how his weird tics and grimaces are getting more frequent and longer?

theprestige 7th February 2020 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimbob (Post 12980777)
Anyone else notice how his weird tics and grimaces are getting more frequent and longer?

Can't say that I've put any effort into tracking that. Or even watching him for any period long enough to notice it was even happening.

What's your methodology? Do you watch him live, and keep a diary?


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:21 PM.

Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2015-20, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.