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-   -   Continuation Donald Trump has 'dangerous mental illness' say psychiatry experts at Yale... Pt 3 (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=341507)

xjx388 9th February 2020 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve (Post 12984161)
Any mental illness in a person is his position is dangerous. Rational thought is a crucial part of the job.

Thatís ridiculous. If you accept the idea of being able to discern mental illness from afar, shrinks have told us that many Presidents have had some form of mental illness.

What you are basically saying is that we should discriminate against people based solely on if they are mentally ill. That doesnít sound right to me at all. Whatís important isnít whether or not a particular POTUS has a mental illness; itís the things they actually do while a candidate and in office. Actions, not perceived mental state.

Loss Leader 9th February 2020 11:20 PM

Mod Warning17 posts have been sent to AAH as violations of Rules 0 and 12. Infractions have been given. Be more civil. Argue the facts and Stop. The. Sniping. Thank you.
Posted By:Loss Leader

Stacyhs 9th February 2020 11:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve (Post 12984161)
Any mental illness in a person is his position is dangerous. Rational thought is a crucial part of the job.

Quote:

Originally Posted by xjx388 (Post 12984165)
Thatís ridiculous. If you accept the idea of being able to discern mental illness from afar, shrinks have told us that many Presidents have had some form of mental illness.

What you are basically saying is that we should discriminate against people based solely on if they are mentally ill. That doesnít sound right to me at all. Whatís important isnít whether or not a particular POTUS has a mental illness; itís the things they actually do while a candidate and in office. Actions, not perceived mental state.

How do you get from "in a person in his position" to "we should discriminate against people based solely on if they are mentally ill"?

xjx388 10th February 2020 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stacyhs (Post 12984273)
How do you get from "in a person in his position" to "we should discriminate against people based solely on if they are mentally ill"?

The underlying idea is that people with mental illness are not suited to be President. I think that's overbroad and unfair to the vast majority of people with mental illness. We shouldn't be judging people based on a diagonsis; we should be judging people based on their actions and temperment. To say someone is dangerous simply because they've been diagnosed with a mental illness and therefore shouldn't be "a person in his position," is discriminatory.

Indeed, it's not even a standard that anyone has applied in the past (with one notable exception which lead to the Goldwater Rule) nor is it a standard anyone is actually going to apply going forward. One in five people have been diagnosed with a mental illness in the US; the actual prevalence is probably higher due to the stigma attached to it and people not seeking treatment. This means that among the 11 still active Democratic Party POTUS candidates, 2 or 3 of them probably have been diagnosed with a mental illness. Where's Duty to Warn when you need them? ;)

Matthew Best 10th February 2020 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xjx388 (Post 12984594)
One in five people have been diagnosed with a mental illness in the US ... This means that among the 11 still active Democratic Party POTUS candidates, 2 or 3 of them probably have been diagnosed with a mental illness.

That seems like a stretch. You're saying that the Dem candidates are just a representative sample of general society?

xjx388 10th February 2020 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matthew Best (Post 12984607)
That seems like a stretch. You're saying that the Dem candidates are just a representative sample of general society?

Oh crap, you are right. :mgduh I forgot to factor in that they were American politicians. Correction: more like 5 or 6 of them have been diagnosed with mental illness. :D

Skeptic Ginger 10th February 2020 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xjx388 (Post 12984631)
Oh crap, you are right. :mgduh I forgot to factor in that they were American politicians. Correction: more like 5 or 6 of them have been diagnosed with mental illness. :D

What you forgot is that this is a straw man argument. No one said mental illness was the issue. It's Trump's specific mental illness and how it is manifested that is the issue.

jimbob 10th February 2020 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger (Post 12984659)
What you forgot is that this is a straw man argument. No one said mental illness was the issue. It's Trump's specific mental illness and how it is manifested that is the issue.

Yup, there's a difference between having a mental illness that didn't affect their functioning too much - and might even have led to a particular drive and a complete disconnect from reality, which Trump seems to be displaying.

xjx388 10th February 2020 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger (Post 12984659)
What you forgot is that this is a straw man argument. No one said mental illness was the issue. It's Trump's specific mental illness and how it is manifested that is the issue.

Strawman? No.

The title of the thread is "Donald Trump has 'dangerous mental illness' . . ."

You just said Trump's mental illness is the issue. You can't special plead your way out of the core problem here: mental illness is being used to explain the negative qualities and bad behavior of a public figure. If we ever hope to reduce the stigma associated with mental illness, we have to divorce "bad" and "dangerous" from "mentally ill."

Mental illness -and the way society views it- is indeed an issue here. You asked me awhile back to demonstrate the harm being done by the Yale Group and their public discussion of Trump. Here it is in black and white.

Skeptic Ginger 10th February 2020 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xjx388 (Post 12984692)
Strawman? No.

The title of the thread is "Donald Trump has 'dangerous mental illness' . . ."

You just said Trump's mental illness is the issue. You can't special plead your way out of the core problem here: mental illness is being used to explain the negative qualities and bad behavior of a public figure. If we ever hope to reduce the stigma associated with mental illness, we have to divorce "bad" and "dangerous" from "mentally ill."

Mental illness -and the way society views it- is indeed an issue here. You asked me awhile back to demonstrate the harm being done by the Yale Group and their public discussion of Trump. Here it is in black and white.

It's a straw man. Playing pedantic games with anytime someone mentioned mental illness instead of Trump's specific NPD doesn't make it not a straw man.

NO ONE IN THE THREAD OR IN DR LEE'S LINK HAS SAID ANY AND ALL MENTAL ILLNESS IS THE SAME. NO ONE!

Steve 10th February 2020 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger (Post 12984732)
It's a straw man. Playing pedantic games with anytime someone mentioned mental illness instead of Trump's specific NPD doesn't make it not a straw man.

NO ONE IN THE THREAD OR IN DR LEE'S LINK HAS SAID ANY AND ALL MENTAL ILLNESS IS THE SAME. NO ONE!

That was probably true right up until xjx388 said it.

TragicMonkey 10th February 2020 11:20 AM

Is "being a crabby bunny" a mental illness? Because it seems to be spreading around! Can't we all just come together nicely to celebrate our president's obvious criminal insanity?

Steve 10th February 2020 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey (Post 12984780)
Is "being a crabby bunny" a mental illness? Because it seems to be spreading around! Can't we all just come together nicely to celebrate our president's obvious criminal insanity?

Exactly. It seems that very few are saying that he is not insane and a criminal. Mostly his supporters are saying those are fine characteristics for a POTUS.

jimbob 10th February 2020 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xjx388 (Post 12984692)
Strawman? No.

The title of the thread is "Donald Trump has 'dangerous mental illness' . . ."

You just said Trump's mental illness is the issue. You can't special plead your way out of the core problem here: mental illness is being used to explain the negative qualities and bad behavior of a public figure. If we ever hope to reduce the stigma associated with mental illness, we have to divorce "bad" and "dangerous" from "mentally ill."

Mental illness -and the way society views it- is indeed an issue here. You asked me awhile back to demonstrate the harm being done by the Yale Group and their public discussion of Trump. Here it is in black and white.

Trump's performance does indeed show him unsuited to commend or indeed being in charge of anything complex. He literally behaves like a preschooler during the national anthem. I have gathered that the flag and the national anthem are quite important in US culture - more so than in Britain, for example.

To be fair, recently his declining faculties have overshadowed his other character defects (which also made him unsuited to any position of power).

The thread title was that Trump has a dangerous mental illness. The implication is that there are non-dangerous mental illnesses as well - which is true. There are many that cause distress to the sufferer but aren't generally dangerous to them or anyone else.

However, having a demented Commander in Chief doesn't seem to be an unequivocally brilliant idea.

Bob001 10th February 2020 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xjx388 (Post 12984692)
.....
Mental illness -and the way society views it- is indeed an issue here. You asked me awhile back to demonstrate the harm being done by the Yale Group and their public discussion of Trump. Here it is in black and white.

"Mental illness" covers a lot of ground, and includes a lot of attitudes and behaviors that don't interfere with rational thought or functioning. But mental health is a legitimate requirement for many jobs. Law enforcement applicants are usually required to pass a psychological screening, and are subject to monitoring throughout their careers. Psychological screening is a basic part of applying for and keeping a government security clearance. Many employers administer the MMPI or other screening tools. And the officers who control nuclear weapons are subject to the most intense screening and continuous monitoring.

Trump couldn't pass any of it. That might not matter for a NYC real estate hustler or a TV reality star. But that's not where Trump sits today.

theprestige 10th February 2020 12:16 PM

I'm still waiting for someone to articulate the danger we're supposed to be concerned about.

Dr Lee has unequivocally called for the immediate removal of the President from office, on account of the danger he poses. I'd like to see some more in-depth analysis of what this danger is likely to be, why it hasn't manifested yet, and what's likely to cause it to manifest.

NPD is a reasonably well-understood condition, isn't it? A confident diagnosis of NPD should enable strong predictions about behavior. And not just typical hot-reading stuff like "he'll continue to say stupid stuff on Twitter." Actual medical insights not readily accessible to lay observers.

xjx388 10th February 2020 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger (Post 12984732)
It's a straw man. Playing pedantic games with anytime someone mentioned mental illness instead of Trump's specific NPD doesn't make it not a straw man.

NO ONE IN THE THREAD OR IN DR LEE'S LINK HAS SAID ANY AND ALL MENTAL ILLNESS IS THE SAME. NO ONE!



No one has said it? Everyone is linking mental illness to Trumpís negative qualities. Why is Trump dangerous? Because heís mentally ill. Itís the linking of mental illness to negative qualities thatís the problem.

Why do you need to mention mental illness at all? Why not just argue that heís dangerous because of his ignorance, incompetence, etc?

RecoveringYuppy 10th February 2020 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xjx388
Why do you need to mention mental illness at all? Why not just argue that heís dangerous because of his ignorance, incompetence, etc?


Why avoid mentioning one of the reasons he is dangerous?

xjx388 10th February 2020 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy (Post 12984910)
Why avoid mentioning one of the reasons he is dangerous?

Because being mentally ill isn't actually what makes him dangerous.

Mentally ill does not equate to dangerous. It's a stereotype.

jimbob 10th February 2020 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xjx388 (Post 12984931)
Quote:

Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy (Post 12984910)
Why avoid mentioning one of the reasons he is dangerous?

Because being mentally ill isn't actually what makes him dangerous.

Mentally ill does not equate to dangerous. It's a stereotype.

Please stop with the vapours.

It's not a generic mental illness that is the problem, it's the fact that the Commander in Chief is supposed to take difficult decisions with complex geopolitical ramifications that affect the lives of Americans in dangerous parts of the world. Trump literally behaved like a preschooler during the national anthem - that's a sign that something is very wrong with his mind.

RecoveringYuppy 10th February 2020 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xjx388 (Post 12984931)
Mentally ill does not equate to dangerous. It's a stereotype.


And the sky isn't always blue. Just google "dangerous mental illness" and you'll see mental illness can and does cause violent behavior. It also causes a wide range of other dangerous behavior such as driving when you aren't capable. Yes, not all mental illnesses lead directly to dangerous behavior but they certainly can and do.

bruto 10th February 2020 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xjx388 (Post 12984931)
Because being mentally ill isn't actually what makes him dangerous.

Mentally ill does not equate to dangerous. It's a stereotype.

I suppose there is a good point here. I've seen it suggested that one has to be a little crazy to want to be president at all, and one could argue that a brilliant sociopath or sufferer from something classified as a mental illness could still be an effective president. We've had a few depressives, I think. Unfortunately, I think the reality is that Trump is a fool, and always has been. Long before anyone saw evidence of mental decline, critics thought him a self-aggrandizing jerk, and joked about what a bad president he'd be. In his case the evidence of his mental incompetency simply amplifies the wrong things. There's some recreational interest in trying to analyze his nuttiness and quantify the mental deterioration that I think should be obvious to anyone who actually pays attention, but in the end the reason he's a bad president is that he's a ***** idiot who at his best was always unfit for the job. His obvious loss of acuity and aphasia just make his habit of stupidity and lies harder to miss.

I wonder when, if ever, his supporters will find it impossible even for them to pass over his gaffes and infantilisms. At some point, one would imagine, people will look back at this and say "what was I thinking?" but apparently we must fall further down the hole first. I picture Trump with sharpie in hand drawing a mustache on Obama's official portrait and Moscow Mitch and his cronies complimenting him on his creative prowess.

Minoosh 10th February 2020 01:51 PM

One thing so far, he hasn't invaded any other countries or ordered pre-emptive strikes, nuclear or otherwise. The nukes thing is the most obvious danger he presents. But if Trump is rapidly deteriorating cognitively, is he even capable of observing whatever protocol must be observed to launch a nuclear weapon? I'm not sure he can just call up the Pentagon and order it to nuke Tehran. I know the "football" is supposedly with him at all times, but what does that entail? Someone would need to at a minimum input GPS coordinates and pick which bomb(s) to drop.

Is he even capable of issuing coherent orders?

theprestige 10th February 2020 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy (Post 12984955)
And the sky isn't always blue. Just google "dangerous mental illness" and you'll see mental illness can and does cause violent behavior. It also causes a wide range of other dangerous behavior such as driving when you aren't capable. Yes, not all mental illnesses lead directly to dangerous behavior but they certainly can and do.

Not all mental illness causes violent behavior, though. And we haven't really seen violent behavior from President Trump. What's the most violent thing he's done? Yell at reporters? Kill terrorists?

If the Yale Group is right, we should be seeing regular violent outbursts, with a clearly worsening trend. But we're not. All of the "evidence" presented so far, of Trump's allegedly dangerous mental illness, hasn't shown any danger. The diction, the grammar and syntax, the facial expressions, the hair... Tell yourself this proves he's crazy, if you like. But don't pretend it proves he's dangerous.

Vote him out in November for being a bad president.

Impeach him for high crimes and misdemeanors, if you can manage it.

Start 25th Amendment proceedings because he's dangerously crazy? That just makes Dr Lee look like a clown. An unethical clown.

xjx388 10th February 2020 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimbob (Post 12984954)
Please stop with the vapours.

It's not a generic mental illness that is the problem,

Then why is there a long running thread with people telling me how obvious it is that Trump has a mental illness? Weird.
Quote:

it's the fact that the Commander in Chief is supposed to take difficult decisions with complex geopolitical ramifications that affect the lives of Americans in dangerous parts of the world. Trump literally behaved like a preschooler during the national anthem - that's a sign that something is very wrong with his mind.
Eh. It's a sign that he's a childish fool. You didn't really need to invoke the mental illness angle in order to make your point, which is really: It's not good to have a childish fool as POTUS. And I totally agree with that point.

What I don't agree with is using the medical profession and illness to attack someone.

jimbob 10th February 2020 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12984990)
Not all mental illness causes violent behavior, though. And we haven't really seen violent behavior from President Trump. What's the most violent thing he's done? Yelled at reporters? Kill terrorists?

If the Yale Group is right, we should be seeing regular violent outbursts, with a clearly worsening trend. But we're not. All of the "evidence" presented so far, of Trump's allegedly dangerous mental illness, hasn't shown any danger. The diction, the grammar and syntax, the facial expressions, the hair... Tell yourself this proves he's crazy, if you like. But don't pretend it proves he's dangerous.

Vote him out in November for being a bad president.

Impeach him for high crimes and misdemeanors, if you can manage it.

Start 25th Amendment proceedings because he's dangerously crazy? That just makes Dr Lee look like a clown. An unethical clown.

There was Ivana's sworn deposition that he raped her in a fit of rage in 1990.

Cabbage 10th February 2020 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12984864)
I'm still waiting for someone to articulate the danger we're supposed to be concerned about.

Dr Lee has unequivocally called for the immediate removal of the President from office, on account of the danger he poses. I'd like to see some more in-depth analysis of what this danger is likely to be, why it hasn't manifested yet, and what's likely to cause it to manifest.

NPD is a reasonably well-understood condition, isn't it? A confident diagnosis of NPD should enable strong predictions about behavior. And not just typical hot-reading stuff like "he'll continue to say stupid stuff on Twitter." Actual medical insights not readily accessible to lay observers.


What makes you think it hasn't manifested yet? Just because you ignore problematic issues with Trump's presidency that doesn't mean there are no problematic issues with Trump's presidency.

xjx388 10th February 2020 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cabbage (Post 12984999)
What makes you think it hasn't manifested yet? Just because you ignore problematic issues with Trump's presidency that doesn't mean there are no problematic issues with Trump's presidency.

Please illustrate how the danger has manifested. Don't argue politics; tell us something dangerous he has done. Dangerous in the sense that a mental health professional would mean.

Skeptic Ginger 10th February 2020 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12984864)
I'm still waiting for someone to articulate the danger we're supposed to be concerned about.

Currently he believes the new coronavirus will disappear in the summer.

Once again he has no clue it is summer in half the planet now. And he has ignorant ideas about pandemics. His NPD leads him to rely on his 'greatest knowledge of all time'. He is not likely to rely on experts at the CDC, which he also demonstrated when a few cases of ebola spread.

We may very possibly be in big trouble if he interferes with the public health response to the pandemic.


Quote:

NPD is a reasonably well-understood condition, isn't it? A confident diagnosis of NPD should enable strong predictions about behavior. And not just typical hot-reading stuff like "he'll continue to say stupid stuff on Twitter." Actual medical insights not readily accessible to lay observers.
We have that. You may not be paying attention.

Skeptic Ginger 10th February 2020 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xjx
Mentally ill does not equate to dangerous. It's a stereotype.

We all know that.

You are willfully refusing to recognize your straw man. [/discussion]

theprestige 10th February 2020 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cabbage (Post 12984999)
What makes you think it hasn't manifested yet? Just because you ignore problematic issues with Trump's presidency that doesn't mean there are no problematic issues with Trump's presidency.

I'm talking specifically about violence and danger. A "problematic" administration can be removed through elections or impeachment.

Dr Lee is calling for Trump's immediate removal, under the 25th amendment, because of how dangerous he supposedly is. I'm not seeing that degree of danger in his behavior, past or present.

Minoosh 10th February 2020 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xjx388 (Post 12984993)
Then why is there a long running thread with people telling me how obvious it is that Trump has a mental illness? Weird. Eh. It's a sign that he's a childish fool. You didn't really need to invoke the mental illness angle in order to make your point, which is really: It's not good to have a childish fool as POTUS. And I totally agree with that point.

What I don't agree with is using the medical profession and illness to attack someone.

The anthem moment seemed a lot worse to me than childish behavior. It was the inability to maintain even minimal decorum for a 2-minute song. Was he flouting the rules? Or has he forgotten them?

jimbob 10th February 2020 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minoosh (Post 12985040)
The anthem moment seemed a lot worse to me than childish behavior. It was the inability to maintain even minimal decorum for a 2-minute song. Was he flouting the rules? Or has he forgotten them?

Exactly. The President of the United States sometimes seems to have a similar level of understanding of appropriate behaviour to a preschooler.

xjx388 10th February 2020 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger (Post 12985014)
We all know that.

You are willfully refusing to recognize your straw man. [/discussion]

If you know that, you are doing a poor job demonstrating it.

Trump is ignorant and incompetent. He probably colluded with foreign actors to enhance his election chances, he obstructed justice, he used campaign funds to pay off a woman he slept with, he used his authority to attack political rivals and he demonstrably has no sense of respect for the office he holds. Those actions? That's more than enough to make a case against him. What does mental illness add to the argument? As you say, you know that mental illness does not equal dangerous. I assume you also know that mental illness doesn't make a person bad or evil. Therefore, adding mental illness into the mix does not make a good case for his dangerousness or for his badness. All of those actions I outlined above would be bad whether or not he has a mental illness.

Yet here you are, continuing to insist that it's his specific mental illness that makes him dangerous/bad. You are refusing to see that, simply by putting "mental illness" and "dangerous" together to attack Trump, you are equating those two things.

Bob001 10th February 2020 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimbob (Post 12985045)
Exactly. The President of the United States sometimes seems to have a similar level of understanding of appropriate behaviour to a preschooler.


Interestingly, people who work for him feel the same way.
Quote:

"He's like a bull seeing red," this person added. "There's just no getting through to him, and you can kiss your plans for the day goodbye because you're basically stuck looking after a 4-year-old now."
https://www.businessinsider.com/trum...an-2019-9?op=1

And there's this:
Quote:

And therein lies the key: the core Trump dissonance is that heís an elderly man who possesses the outward appearance and trappings of adulthoodóand who occupies the public role we most strongly associate with adulthoodóbut who is on the inside predominantly infantile. It is that specific dissonance that is wholly novel on the political scene.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/b...-four-year-old

RecoveringYuppy 10th February 2020 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xjx388 (Post 12985066)
You are refusing to see that, simply by putting "mental illness" and "dangerous" together to attack Trump, you are equating those two things.


No, we'd be equating them if we didn't have to add the "dangerous" adjective.

Cabbage 10th February 2020 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xjx388 (Post 12985005)
Please illustrate how the danger has manifested. Don't argue politics; tell us something dangerous he has done. Dangerous in the sense that a mental health professional would mean.


I would say an inability to learn from (or even acknowledge) his mistakes, along with a refusal to atone for his mistakes (such as firing people that testified against him) are dangerous abuses of our political systems.

Nitpicking in 3,2,.....

Cabbage 10th February 2020 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12985032)
I'm talking specifically about violence and danger. A "problematic" administration can be removed through elections or impeachment.


Oh, I see your mistake, then: You're hung up on the idea that danger must necessarily imply "violent".

It doesn't.



You're Welcome!

jimbob 10th February 2020 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cabbage (Post 12985078)
Oh, I see your mistake, then: You're hung up on the idea that danger must necessarily imply "violent".

It doesn't.



You're Welcome!

But [ETA: anyway] his first wife gave a sworn deposition that he was violent

Steve 10th February 2020 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cabbage (Post 12985078)
Oh, I see your mistake, then: You're hung up on the idea that danger must necessarily imply "violent".

It doesn't.



You're Welcome!

He does not seem averse to providing classified US info to other governments. I suggest that could be dangerous without being violent.


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