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-   -   Trans Women are not Women (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=325369)

dann 5th December 2017 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lobosrul5 (Post 12103083)
Just get rid of international sports competitions? OK.


Just get rid of sports competitions.

theprestige 5th December 2017 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dann (Post 12103141)
Just get rid of sports competitions.

Why?

BobTheCoward 5th December 2017 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Giz (Post 12103121)
I think your version of the Olympics might be a little bloated and unwieldy.

I'd like you to run it though, as the Olympics are a bit of a bore.

Let all the groups claiming to be the Olympics select the weightlifters they reach an agreement with.

caveman1917 5th December 2017 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crescent (Post 12102986)
I really doubt that anyone becomes transgender just to have an athletic advantage.

Probably depends on how easy it is. In the UK there's currently an initiative to amend the Gender Recognition Act to remove all conditions for getting a so-called "Gender Certificate", which basically makes it illegal for organizations or groups restricted to the gender on that certificate to refuse you for that reason.

Right now the conditions are having gender dysphoria and living as the acquired gender for at least two years. So it's unlikely someone is going to get a medical diagnosis and change their gender role merely for athletic advantage. The initiative would however remove those conditions and grants it on simple self-declaration, so it'll be more likely to see it used for athletic and other advantage.

BStrong 5th December 2017 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12103041)
And yet it doesn't matter enough that drivers (riders?) are selected the same way as horse jockeys.

You'd be surprised. I've met a bunch of the top riders up to and including Freddie Spencer and they're all smaller guys. The largest pro racer I've met was Scott Russel and he was still significantly smaller than I am.

The long running joke is this: "If I was 100 lbs lighter none of you could beat me!"

mgidm86 5th December 2017 10:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cullennz (Post 12103082)
They can still compete though

They just cant do it waving a Russian flag

And when one of the top nations in the medal table says "Independent" I think 99% of people will just think "Russia did well this year"

Some may be able to compete. No flag. No anthem. They may call them "athletes from Russia".

Read about the extent that the state sponsored deceiving the IOC. 1/3 of medalists were on the list of cheaters.

There's an easy solution to this problem and it has worked well for quite some time.

Trying to medically determine if a transgender man can fairly compete with women sounds imprecise, and at best is guesswork. Ridiculous. If you were born a man then that's what you are as far as sports are concerned. Like I said, verrrry simple. if you can't deal with that, try chess.

Aber 5th December 2017 10:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crescent (Post 12102986)
I really doubt that anyone becomes transgender just to have an athletic advantage. There have been cases of men trying to present themselves as women to gain athletic advantage, but that is not at all the same thing as being transgender, just as wearing drag to a costume party does not make a man into a transgender woman.

The debate has moved on to the extent that it is seriously being considered by the UK government that gender should be a matter for self-identification.

Quote:

Under plans being considered by ministers, adults will be able to change their birth certificates at will without a doctor’s diagnosis, while non-binary gender people will be able to record their gender as “X”.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a7855381.html

cullennz 5th December 2017 11:38 PM

Was reading about Canada's C-16 bill the other day.

If anyone can be bothered googling it is quite amusing, If a tad scary.

Among other things it makes publications both public and private (e.g. tutors notes in uni's) refering to someone by their wrong chosen gender pronoun a hate crime.

Cavemonster 6th December 2017 12:59 AM

I actually don't really see a real issue for athletics.

We call certain sports and events "Women's" but they are actually "Female's". The reason behind having separate "men's" and "women's" athletics is based in differences of sex, not differences of gender. We happen to use gender terms because of how we have historically viewed them, but no one really disagrees that it is sex that is meant to be distinguished.

So although we call it "Women's Basketball" (or whatever sport) we actually mean "Female's Basketball" (or whatever sport). Trans women are women (gender) but they are not females (sex). So there is absolutely no contradiction in recognizing that trans women are really women but that they may be barred from competing in female designated sports.

The Atheist 6th December 2017 01:01 AM

While the article was about sport, its only ancillary to the subject rather than the subject. It was only up because I was too lazy to find this one: http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2017/10/05...nder-students/

Quote:

Originally Posted by sadhatter (Post 12102950)
I find situations like this interesting.

It shows that we are at a strange interval in equality, we are not quite at the point where we can have real frank useful discussions,we are all about being nice, but we are afraid to be reasonable for fear of being mean.

That is not showing trans people respect, that is treating them like disabled children, unable to understand to be reasonable, through no fault of their own.

Nicely put.

I don't think there's an easy answer, and I certainly don't think the answer is to state that trans women are women.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aber (Post 12103634)
The debate has moved on to the extent that it is seriously being considered by the UK government that gender should be a matter for self-identification.

Looks like I need to update my thinking to "Transitioning is a choice."

That legislation is straight-out bollocks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cullennz (Post 12103655)
Was reading about Canada's C-16 bill the other day.

If anyone can be bothered googling it is quite amusing, If a tad scary.

Among other things it makes publications both public and private (e.g. tutors notes in uni's) refering to someone by their wrong chosen gender pronoun a hate crime.

Equally-stupid legislation.

The Don 6th December 2017 01:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12103034)
Would it destroy women's sport if we let 0.3% of male athletes compete against them? I think probably, yeah it would.

If I'm part of the 0.3%, it wouldn't make a bit of difference.

Hungry81 6th December 2017 01:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cullennz (Post 12103655)
Was reading about Canada's C-16 bill the other day.

If anyone can be bothered googling it is quite amusing, If a tad scary.

Among other things it makes publications both public and private (e.g. tutors notes in uni's) refering to someone by their wrong chosen gender pronoun a hate crime.



Quote:

Originally Posted by Aber (Post 12103634)
The debate has moved on to the extent that it is seriously being considered by the UK government that gender should be a matter for self-identification.



http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a7855381.html

Prime examples of idiots taking it too far.

Worm 6th December 2017 02:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lobosrul5 (Post 12103051)
Its a pretty damn big deal in some motorsports. I've heard 1 kg is worth .03 seconds per lap on the average F1 track. Doesn't sound like much but thats just about 2 seconds over the course of a race per kilo. Most drivers are smaller than average and I've heard stories of them starving themselves leading up to a race weekend.

Their height also matters the higher the drivers head the more drag.
The heavier the car the less the drivers weight will impact performance, and that goes even more so if your mostly drafting. So its not too critical for NASCAR for example.

Interestingly, this has only fairly recently become such an issue in F1.

F1 cars have a minimum weight specification (currently 728kg). They used to actually have to work to meet this requirement by adding ballast - somewhere in the region of 150kg. The advantage of a lighter driver was that they were able to shift more weight, and hence balance the car - the centre of gravity is not so rooted in the centre of the car with the driver, and they could shift the balance where it is most needed - which varies from track to track.

These days, with larger, heaver power units and additional tech requirements, ballast is not such a major factor. F1 teams are fairly secretive but I have heard some comments that some F1 teams may well not be using ballast at all in order to minimise weight.

However, while it is a general rule of thumb that heavier=slower, the relationship between weight, power, aerodynamics and grip are complex, and it's perfectly possible for a heaver car to go faster than a lighter one if the additional weight compensates by adding more overall speed.

ponderingturtle 6th December 2017 05:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hungry81 (Post 12103719)
Prime examples of idiots taking it too far.

Exactly harassing freaks like this should have special legal sanction.

Bikewer 6th December 2017 06:45 AM

I seem to remember much the same discussions about trans tennis player Renee Richards.

The conclusion was that though Richards might enjoy an advantage at first, this would rapidly dissapear as continued use of female hormones would tend to equalize the difference.

caveman1917 6th December 2017 07:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bikewer (Post 12103925)
I seem to remember much the same discussions about trans tennis player Renee Richards.

The conclusion was that though Richards might enjoy an advantage at first, this would rapidly dissapear as continued use of female hormones would tend to equalize the difference.

Except that the new initiatives in the UK (and apparently Canada) are so as to remove any conditions from legal gender reassignment. So no requirements for hormone therapy, or to actually have gender dysphoria or anything at all. I would be able to just go to the city hall and get a certificate to enter women's sports without needing to change anything about myself. Under those conditions it's a bit easier to see how that might get abused.

lobosrul5 6th December 2017 08:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Worm (Post 12103748)
However, while it is a general rule of thumb that heavier=slower, the relationship between weight, power, aerodynamics and grip are complex, and it's perfectly possible for a heaver car to go faster than a lighter one if the additional weight compensates by adding more overall speed.

Sure, but having extra "dead weight" will always make a car accelerate and take corners just that bit slower. Its super important in open wheel racing on road/street courses. NASCAR where they cruise around on high banked ovals, not so much.

Its mainly the batteries that make current F1 cars so heavy and with less room for ballast.

But, back to the topic, no its not fair to let a man compete in women's sports. Its perfectly fair to allow women to race competitively.

dann 6th December 2017 08:28 AM

Do you know if it's a question of inertia and mass rather than weight?
I'm asking because I'm wondering about the thingies (don't know the word) that aerodynamically press down a racing car to give it more grip, i.e. make it 'heavier' without adding (significant) extra mass.


PS It just occurred to me that this has got nothing to do with the theme of this thread, sorry!

tyr_13 6th December 2017 10:02 AM

By this reasoning, Russian athletes aren't women either.

This is just one step up from the former argument that if you don't want to have sex with them, they aren't really women (which means your mother isn't a woman either).

(On the more productive topic than the OP personal hangups on women, there are many medical conditions that prevent people from engaging in competitive sports, and being transgender is generally one of them.)

theprestige 6th December 2017 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyr_13 (Post 12104161)
By this reasoning, Russian athletes aren't women either.

This is just one step up from the former argument that if you don't want to have sex with them, they aren't really women (which means your mother isn't a woman either).

(On the more productive topic than the OP personal hangups on women, there are many medical conditions that prevent people from engaging in competitive sports, and being transgender is generally one of them.)

What are you talking about?

Scootch 6th December 2017 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Don (Post 12103688)
If I'm part of the 0.3%, it wouldn't make a bit of difference.

Yeah but what are the chances you would be in the 0.3%?

Hungry81 6th December 2017 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle (Post 12103854)
Exactly harassing freaks like this should have special legal sanction.

Nope. Not what I said at all. They are already protected under law from harassment same as you and I.

Hurting their feelings shouldn't be illegal any more than hurting my feelings is. Which is good for you because you just did. Or should I call the police?

Hungry81 6th December 2017 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyr_13 (Post 12104161)
By this reasoning, Russian athletes aren't women either.

This is just one step up from the former argument that if you don't want to have sex with them, they aren't really women (which means your mother isn't a woman either).

(On the more productive topic than the OP personal hangups on women, there are many medical conditions that prevent people from engaging in competitive sports, and being transgender is generally one of them.)

And the gigantic Russian straw athelete sprints in from left field....

Damien Evans 6th December 2017 11:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Argumemnon (Post 12102970)
I don't know if the 0.3% of trans people will really tip the balance that much, but it sure isn't fair _IF_ the trans woman has the build and hormones of a man.

Well you don't have to worry about that, because they don't.

Damien Evans 6th December 2017 11:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12103034)
Doesn't take a lot. One transwoman weightlifter levels the playing field for all the ciswomen weightlifters. All the records become her records. Any woman who competes in the same tournaments or championships must accept second place as her highest aspiration. Any woman who competes in events without the transwoman must accept that their first place exists in her shadow.

Would it destroy women's sport if we let 0.3% of male athletes compete against them? I think probably, yeah it would.

Assumes facts not in evidence.

Damien Evans 6th December 2017 11:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12103041)
And yet it doesn't matter enough that drivers (riders?) are selected the same way as horse jockeys.

Tell that to Nico Hulkenberg. He's lost out on several F1 drives due to being the biggest guy in the field.

Beerina 6th December 2017 11:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12102956)
If transwomen are allowed to compete athletically as women, it will effectively exclude ciswomen from athletic competition.


We need federal legislation to carve out a special Title for genetic women so they won't be swarmed by genetic men in athletics!

Women need to be active, too! Sorry, genetic women!

theprestige 6th December 2017 11:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damien Evans (Post 12104972)
Tell that to Nico Hulkenberg. He's lost out on several F1 drives due to being the biggest guy in the field.

And yet riders still aren't selected like jockeys.

Brainster 7th December 2017 12:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bikewer (Post 12103925)
I seem to remember much the same discussions about trans tennis player Renee Richards.

The conclusion was that though Richards might enjoy an advantage at first, this would rapidly dissapear as continued use of female hormones would tend to equalize the difference.

Yes, but the height advantage never goes away. In some sports it isn't that big a deal, but in tennis, basketball and volleyball there is a huge advantage to being tall, and thus usually the best players are taller than average. Venus Williams is 6'1", which I am sure puts her in the top 1/1000th of all women, and would put her in the top 10% or so of men. And she's not even the tallest woman in the top 10; Sharapova's an inch taller.

Darat 7th December 2017 12:35 AM

Is this a real problem?

cullennz 7th December 2017 01:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darat (Post 12105005)
Is this a real problem?

If your talking transgender and female weightlifting in NZ . Yep

This is The End 7th December 2017 01:49 AM

I tend to look at it in these simple terms:

Sports have rules.

Womens basketball has a rule. No men.

Technically that is a sexist rule, by definition. It is discriminatory on its face. It is the price of having that sport exist in that way.

So while it is obviously also discriminatory to have a rule something like:

Womens basketball has a new rule. No transwomen.

It shouldn't really be any different than before... It again is the price of having that sport exist in that way.

I'm not really seeing how there is a "new" problem even in light of the current civil rights environment.

TubbaBlubba 7th December 2017 02:35 AM

Are Transwomen who have undergone hormone therapy for a few years really advantaged compared to cis-women with advantageous genetics? I guess they might have some advantage in proportions/leverage, but on balance, I really wonder.

Roboramma 7th December 2017 02:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba (Post 12105076)
Are Transwomen who have undergone hormone therapy for a few years really advantaged compared to cis-women with advantageous genetics? I guess they might have some advantage in proportions/leverage, but on balance, I really wonder.

As I understand (based only on listening to a doctor on a podcast) the advantage in bone density lasts for decades.

TubbaBlubba 7th December 2017 03:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roboramma (Post 12105085)
As I understand (based only on listening to a doctor on a podcast) the advantage in bone density lasts for decades.

Ah, that is indeed something I failed to consider.

JJM 777 7th December 2017 04:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oystein (Post 12102952)
Or else, next thing we have a boxer claiming to be a feather weight trapped in a heavy weight body!

Those darn genetic disorders of melabolism. Where is the fairness and equality for them?

BobTheCoward 7th December 2017 05:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cullennz (Post 12105022)
If your talking transgender and female weightlifting in NZ . Yep

Problem is a bit of a stretch.

Civet 7th December 2017 06:07 AM

An argument I've heard some is that it's important for transgirls to begin the biological portion of their transitions as early as possible since going through male puberty results in permanent physical changes that subsequent hormone therapy and surgeries cannot undo. That seems consistent with the position that some of the male advantages in sport simply cannot be erased using currently available medical techniques. Might be different for people who transition at a very early age.

Wolrab 7th December 2017 06:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Civet (Post 12105205)
An argument I've heard some is that it's important for transgirls to begin the biological portion of their transitions as early as possible since going through male puberty results in permanent physical changes that subsequent hormone therapy and surgeries cannot undo. That seems consistent with the position that some of the male advantages in sport simply cannot be erased using currently available medical techniques. Might be different for people who transition at a very early age.

How is starting a boy or girl on hormone therapy before puberty not child abuse? There are instances of the kid changing his mind after starting. There is a reason for children not being deemed competent to make life altering decisions. If a child feels their right arm isn't theirs, should we allow an amputation?

William Parcher 7th December 2017 06:55 AM

Mommy, I don't want a circumcision I want that whole thing cut off and I want you to stop calling me David and I want those pills. If you don't do these things I will get a lawyer and claim child abuse. Oh, and you better give me back my shoes!


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