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-   -   Trans Women are not Women (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=325369)

cullennz 13th December 2017 04:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hungry81 (Post 12112353)
Not long ago another woman was charged with rape because she presented herself as a man https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&s...sUwjZf&ampcf=1

This is similar what Caitlyn states she did. Acted like a man even though she knew she was a woman. Hell she was so into pretending she was a man she impregnated her wife. Thats dedication. Why does she get special treatment and the other girl gets scorn and 6 years prison?

Seriously struggling to get your point, but I am guessing the publicity hungry one on TV's missus didn't press any charges or make a complaint like the weirdly gullible blindfolded chick did

cullennz 13th December 2017 04:10 AM

Forgot to say it wasn't rape she got done for by the way

It's like the thread on the dude in California

It wasn't the genitals. So sexual assault by penetration.

The publicity seeking one hypothetically would be rape

Hungry81 13th December 2017 04:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cullennz (Post 12112386)
Forgot to say it wasn't rape she got done for by the way

It's like the thread on the dude in California

It wasn't the genitals. So sexual assault by penetration.

The publicity seeking one hypothetically would be rape

Oh yeah it was sexual assault. Yuuuuge difference. I forgot that apparently only men or women with organic functional penises can rape. How discriminatory.

Darat 13th December 2017 05:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hungry81 (Post 12112353)
Not long ago another woman was charged with rape because she presented herself as a man https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&s...sUwjZf&ampcf=1

This is similar what Caitlyn states she did. Acted like a man even though she knew she was a woman. Hell she was so into pretending she was a man she impregnated her wife. Thats dedication. Why does she get special treatment and the other girl gets scorn and 6 years prison?

Probably because the situations are totally different?

Hungry81 13th December 2017 05:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darat (Post 12112435)
Probably because the situations are totally different?

How so? two women for various reasons decided to trick other women into sleeping with them by pretending to be male. Caitlyn admitted she knew she was a female. But she lied, and is now making even more money off coming clean, whilst the other chick is in prison. It seems one rule for celebrities and atheletes and one rule for everyone else.

Darat 13th December 2017 05:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hungry81 (Post 12112441)
How so? two women for various reasons decided to trick other women into sleeping with them by pretending to be male. Caitlyn admitted she knew she was a female. But she lied, and is now making even more money off coming clean, whilst the other chick is in prison. It seems one rule for celebrities and atheletes and one rule for everyone else.

Er right...... ?????

cullennz 13th December 2017 09:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hungry81 (Post 12112420)
Oh yeah it was sexual assault. Yuuuuge difference. I forgot that apparently only men or women with organic functional penises can rape. How discriminatory.

You should write a strongly worded letter to the ones that decided the rules

davefoc 15th December 2017 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oystein (Post 12102952)
In sports, the main reason why men and women compete separately is that men, due to differences in hormonal mix and development, quite simply grow stronger muscles, and on average also grow taller, than women. It's a matter of biological, physiological sporting fairness.

So I can see, and actually support, that transgender folks who are treated as women socially are still treated as men athletically, if they (still) have the male mix of testosterone, size, muscles etc.

Or else, next thing we have a boxer claiming to be a feather weight trapped in a heavy weight body!

I have not read a single other post in this thread. I am curious how than there can be more to say on this issue. There must be because at this point the thread is several pages long, but what the heck is everybody else talking about that wasn't covered by Oystein's post. I'm going to go look now.

davefoc 15th December 2017 07:19 PM

A few of the posts that seemed interesting to me:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darat (Post 12107522)
At the top professional and amatuer levels wouldn't they have to undergo blood tests for drug use? What about having a rule that any "sex" hormone can't be used?

I thought this idea was pretty good until I thought about this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roboramma (Post 12108613)
The drugs trans women use would hamper performance, not enhance it. Why would they disallow those drugs?

And so what if they didn't allow them, if the athlete wants to win why take drugs that might reduce their chances?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcus (Post 12111787)
Bruce Jenner is the perfect example. Not only did he not have the surgery, he continues to have sex with women. Using his penis. Just dressing in womens clothes is not enough to make someone into a woman, at least by my definition.

I didn't know this. How did what Bruce Jenner does with his penis become public knowledge and who has he had sex with since he started identifying himself as a woman?

Marcus 15th December 2017 09:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davefoc (Post 12115645)


I didn't know this. How did what Bruce Jenner does with his penis become public knowledge and who has he had sex with since he started identifying himself as a woman?

I'm not sure of the answers so I just went looking around and discovered that Jenner had the surgery in January. To me this demonstrates a commitment. I will now call her "she" , a pronoun that I reserve the right not to call someone if they are merely dressing in female clothes. She says that she will have female companions but will no longer have sex with women since the surgery.

ETA: She is too old to be an athlete now, but if she was young enough, I really doubt any genetic women would want to compete against her. For starters, she is 6' 2", 194 pounds and wears a size 13 shoe.

Roboramma 15th December 2017 11:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davefoc (Post 12115645)
And so what if they didn't allow them, if the athlete wants to win why take drugs that might reduce their chances?

Exactly.

davefoc 16th December 2017 01:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hungry81 (Post 12112353)
Not long ago another woman was charged with rape because she presented herself as a man https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&s...sUwjZf&ampcf=1

This is similar what Caitlyn states she did. Acted like a man even though she knew she was a woman. Hell she was so into pretending she was a man she impregnated her wife. Thats dedication. Why does she get special treatment and the other girl gets scorn and 6 years prison?

I couldn't imagine what there was to say about this issue beyond what Oystein said in the third post of this thread. How could I have not thought of this. Of course Caitlyn could be charged with rape when he impregnated his wife pretending to be a man. I guess we can look to see charges being brought any day now.

mgidm86 16th December 2017 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davefoc (Post 12115849)
I couldn't imagine what there was to say about this issue beyond what Oystein said in the third post of this thread. How could I have not thought of this. Of course Caitlyn could be charged with rape when he impregnated his wife pretending to be a man. I guess we can look to see charges being brought any day now.

Lawd take me now! This world has gone insane! Everything that needs to be said about this was said in the thread title.

Silly Green Monkey 16th December 2017 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcus (Post 12115712)
I will now call her "she" , a pronoun that I reserve the right not to call someone if they are merely dressing in female clothes.

Do you demand inspections of the genitals of everyone you meet in order to preserve this 'right'? If you don't, then a selective application makes it not a right and instead a weapon you level at people who don't meet your standards.

The Atheist 16th December 2017 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey (Post 12116415)
Do you demand inspections of the genitals of everyone you meet in order to preserve this 'right'? If you don't, then a selective application makes it not a right and instead a weapon you level at people who don't meet your standards.

Nomenclature isn't the issue here. They can call themselves Shirley Temple Tinkerbelle for all I care, and I'll gladly use whichever pronoun they like.

The issue is whether blokes in dresses - which is what many of them are - are helping or harming women with a uterus.

For starters, it's a given that no trans woman is ever going to get uterine, cervical or ovarian cancer. They're not going to have menopause, and they absolutely are not going to get pregnant.

Silly Green Monkey 17th December 2017 12:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcus (Post 12115712)
I'm not sure of the answers so I just went looking around and discovered that Jenner had the surgery in January. To me this demonstrates a commitment. I will now call her "she" , a pronoun that I reserve the right not to call someone if they are merely dressing in female clothes. She says that she will have female companions but will no longer have sex with women since the surgery.

ETA: She is too old to be an athlete now, but if she was young enough, I really doubt any genetic women would want to compete against her. For starters, she is 6' 2", 194 pounds and wears a size 13 shoe.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Atheist (Post 12116418)
Nomenclature isn't the issue here. They can call themselves Shirley Temple Tinkerbelle for all I care, and I'll gladly use whichever pronoun they like.

The issue is whether blokes in dresses - which is what many of them are - are helping or harming women with a uterus.

For starters, it's a given that no trans woman is ever going to get uterine, cervical or ovarian cancer. They're not going to have menopause, and they absolutely are not going to get pregnant.

Relevance to Marcus dictating what a person can call themselves based on his knowing what their genitals look like?

Hungry81 17th December 2017 12:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey (Post 12116616)
Relevance to Marcus dictating what a person can call themselves based on his knowing what their genitals look like?

Thats a nice straw Xe. Where does Marcus dictate what a person can call themselves? He specifies conditions as to whether he would consider someone male or female based upon the status of their genitalia.

tyr_13 17th December 2017 07:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hungry81 (Post 12116622)
Thats a nice straw Xe. Where does Marcus dictate what a person can call themselves? He specifies conditions as to whether he would consider someone male or female based upon the status of their genitalia.

No, she specifically says she'll not call someone their gender until they have surgery to make their genitals match in the moronic belief that she'll know in every or even most cases.

As thought, this thread for some is just a thinly veiled excuse for people who have issues with transgender people to rationalize their issues. This not only disrespects transgender people obviously, but disrespects the subject they are just using as a cudgel and those who might actually care about sports issues.

EDIT: Damnit, I got my posters confused. As far as I know Marcus isn't a 'she', but then again I haven't heard of any surgery so how should I know?

Marcus 17th December 2017 08:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hungry81 (Post 12116622)
Thats a nice straw Xe. Where does Marcus dictate what a person can call themselves? He specifies conditions as to whether he would consider someone male or female based upon the status of their genitalia.

There you go. It seems some are very insistent on dictating which pronouns I am allowed to use. Not going to happen. Before Bruce Jenner had his surgery, he and I had different opinions on which pronouns were appropriate. I don't think he noticed. If Caitlin Jenner enjoys hearing the female pronouns used, I'm sure she hears more now. There is a difference between her and a dude in a dress.

Marcus 17th December 2017 08:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyr_13 (Post 12116787)
No, she specifically says she'll not call someone their gender until they have surgery to make their genitals match in the moronic belief that she'll know in every or even most cases.

As thought, this thread for some is just a thinly veiled excuse for people who have issues with transgender people to rationalize their issues. This not only disrespects transgender people obviously, but disrespects the subject they are just using as a cudgel and those who might actually care about sports issues.

EDIT: Damnit, I got my posters confused. As far as I know Marcus isn't a 'she', but then again I haven't heard of any surgery so how should I know?

You may make your own decision on what gender you think I am based on the best information you have available. Unfortunately , unlike Jenner, I don't have numerous interviews, and even an autobiography, upon which to base your conclusions.

Silly Green Monkey 17th December 2017 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcus (Post 12116840)
There you go. It seems some are very insistent on dictating which pronouns I am allowed to use. Not going to happen.

No, you are demanding a right to dictate what pronouns others may use for themselves, based on their proving themselves to you. You are quite right that your personal feelings mattered nothing to Jenner. They also matter nothing to every single other human being in existence. Just as I don't get to decide your gender, you don't get to decide anyone else's but your own.

cullennz 17th December 2017 10:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey (Post 12117289)
No, you are demanding a right to dictate what pronouns others may use for themselves, based on their proving themselves to you. You are quite right that your personal feelings mattered nothing to Jenner. They also matter nothing to every single other human being in existence. Just as I don't get to decide your gender, you don't get to decide anyone else's but your own.

Kind of think that is a bit scew wiff there

In normal every day life

People can chose to call themselves whatever they want. But this doesn't mean other people can't chose to disagree the person and ignore what they wish to be called.

Personally go with the person normally.

The other problem that might come up is without some sort of guide some people are bound to get it wrong which gets a bit ugly.

Maybe we should all have badges.....We could have different shades of a rainbow spectrum for every one and we could have graphs at primary school to learn it along side maths.

But then someone will say none of the colours truly suit "them"


With womens sport

If you were born a dude and spent most of your life a dude you have an advantage. Bad luck

Roboramma 18th December 2017 01:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey (Post 12117289)
No, you are demanding a right to dictate what pronouns others may use for themselves, based on their proving themselves to you. You are quite right that your personal feelings mattered nothing to Jenner. They also matter nothing to every single other human being in existence. Just as I don't get to decide your gender, you don't get to decide anyone else's but your own.

He isn't demanding to dictate what pronouns others may use for themselves. He is demanding to dictate what pronouns he uses for others.

In the general case the latter is still a dick move, but those two things are certainly different.

Worm 18th December 2017 02:12 AM

I'm actually intrigued by the idea that we still live in a world where "women's clothes" is still a thing.

Initially I thought it was just an issue for this discussion, but even a moments thought leads me to realised that (certainly in the western world, in my experience) clothes are specifically marketed as 'mens' and 'womens'.

Not to derail - it just struck me as interesting.

Roboramma 18th December 2017 02:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Worm (Post 12117572)
I'm actually intrigued by the idea that we still live in a world where "women's clothes" is still a thing.

Initially I thought it was just an issue for this discussion, but even a moments thought leads me to realised that (certainly in the western world, in my experience) clothes are specifically marketed as 'mens' and 'womens'.

Not to derail - it just struck me as interesting.

As a man who has tights that he bought for Victoria's Secret (and loves them) I agree that it's weird. I've actually had a lot of guys ask me where I got those pants and they always get an embarrassed look on their face when I tell them.

bluesjnr 18th December 2017 02:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roboramma (Post 12117574)
As a man who has tights that he bought for Victoria's Secret (and loves them) I agree that it's weird. I've actually had a lot of guys ask me where I got those pants and they always get an embarrassed look on their face when I tell them.

Tights or pants?

Roboramma 18th December 2017 03:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bluesjnr (Post 12117581)
Tights or pants?

Both I guess; yoga pants. You can see me wearing another pair in my avatar. Those ones aren't Victoria's Secret, but they are a women's line. I think Hard Tail maybe.

I don't actually wear them on the street, but I do wear them when I'm doing yoga.

cullennz 18th December 2017 03:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Worm (Post 12117572)
I'm actually intrigued by the idea that we still live in a world where "women's clothes" is still a thing.

Initially I thought it was just an issue for this discussion, but even a moments thought leads me to realised that (certainly in the western world, in my experience) clothes are specifically marketed as 'mens' and 'womens'.

Not to derail - it just struck me as interesting.

It's almost as if there are different sexes

Take me

I myself chose not to wear a bra.

I thought it was because I didn't have tits.

But maybe it isn't. Maybe I am just a victim of stereotype

dann 18th December 2017 04:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cullennz (Post 12117621)
I myself chose not to wear a bra.

I thought it was because I didn't have tits.


That would be a very good reason for not wearing one! :)
But it doesn't explain the embarrassment or revulsion that men feel at the very idea!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roboramma (Post 12117574)
I've actually had a lot of guys ask me where I got those pants and they always get an embarrassed look on their face when I tell them.


I mentioned a similar thing in the Kevin Spacey thread recently:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...1#post12067791

bluesjnr 18th December 2017 04:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roboramma (Post 12117604)
Both I guess; yoga pants. You can see me wearing another pair in my avatar. Those ones aren't Victoria's Secret, but they are a women's line. I think Hard Tail maybe.

I don't actually wear them on the street, but I do wear them when I'm doing yoga.

It all makes perfect sense now.

Belz... 18th December 2017 04:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyr_13 (Post 12116787)
No, she specifically says she'll not call someone their gender until they have surgery to make their genitals match in the moronic belief that she'll know in every or even most cases.

So what does make someone a man or a woman? Is the claim enough?

Belz... 18th December 2017 04:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey (Post 12117289)
No, you are demanding a right to dictate what pronouns others may use for themselves, based on their proving themselves to you.

Well, yeah. Typically people will label or categorise others based on their appearance or actions, not based on what's in their heads. Why would it be different with gender?

Marcus 18th December 2017 08:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cullennz (Post 12117473)

With womens sport

If you were born a dude and spent most of your life a dude you have an advantage. Bad luck

Yes. If you are Caitlin Jenner, you have a body that you don't get by growing up female, even if the male hormones are now lacking. Sure, there are taller women, I've seen college womens basketball players as tall as 6' 6", but the structure is not the same.

tyr_13 18th December 2017 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcus (Post 12116862)
You may make your own decision on what gender you think I am based on the best information you have available. Unfortunately , unlike Jenner, I don't have numerous interviews, and even an autobiography, upon which to base your conclusions.

Ah, 'based on the best information you have available'. That's actually an excellent standard!

The problem is you're simply using invalid criteria, and the best information we have available on gender does not agree with your position on 'only a she if post op' opinion. See the below link.

Oh you're 'allowed' to use the wrong pronouns if you really want (besides in some specific cases and it can add evidence to charges of harassment), but everyone around you is allowed to think less of you for it. They're even allowed to call you out for it and disagree. What you call 'not being allowed' is really just thus far been 'people disagreeing'.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Argumemnon (Post 12117635)
So what does make someone a man or a woman? Is the claim enough?

Do you think that Marcus can know if any given person has had surgery to alter their genitals? The answer to your question doesn't actually validate the claim I was arguing against.

But here is that link again from the last time this dance happened. The claim is enough for the vast majorities of interactions. You accept the claim already for the overwhelming majorities of interactions. What do you believe you base it off of?

tyr_13 18th December 2017 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Worm (Post 12117572)
I'm actually intrigued by the idea that we still live in a world where "women's clothes" is still a thing.

Initially I thought it was just an issue for this discussion, but even a moments thought leads me to realised that (certainly in the western world, in my experience) clothes are specifically marketed as 'mens' and 'womens'.

Not to derail - it just struck me as interesting.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roboramma (Post 12117574)
As a man who has tights that he bought for Victoria's Secret (and loves them) I agree that it's weird. I've actually had a lot of guys ask me where I got those pants and they always get an embarrassed look on their face when I tell them.

I've often summed up my thinking on that as 'I don't want to wear women's clothes; I want there to be acceptable men's dresses.' Anything to get to wear yokata more often really.

Women's clothes, for all their other issues, have far greater variety of cut, color, style, and fit over every social situation. I use women's leggings because they're cheaper, nicer, and more common than men's (I mostly use them as thermals or around the house, but they work for yoga and martial arts too).

The Atheist 18th December 2017 11:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyr_13 (Post 12118480)
...I want there to be acceptable men's dresses.' ...

There have been for some time. Kilts - ok, they're skirts, but all the same to me - and kaftans have been around for a year or two. Even Homer Simpson wore a kaftan. Pasifika men wear skirts as well as traditional dress.

The Houyhnhnms couldn't work clothes out 300 years ago, so it's not an easy question.

cullennz 19th December 2017 02:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Atheist (Post 12118762)
There have been for some time. Kilts - ok, they're skirts, but all the same to me - and kaftans have been around for a year or two. Even Homer Simpson wore a kaftan. Pasifika men wear skirts as well as traditional dress.

The Houyhnhnms couldn't work clothes out 300 years ago, so it's not an easy question.

And the pope and priests wear dresses

They try to butch it up by calling them robes, but they're not fooling any one

John Jones 19th December 2017 02:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davefoc (Post 12115621)
I have not read a single other post in this thread. I am curious how than there can be more to say on this issue. There must be because at this point the thread is several pages long, but what the heck is everybody else talking about that wasn't covered by Oystein's post. I'm going to go look now.

Indeed.

I'm catching-up. Men are not identical to women? Is that about right?

theprestige 19th December 2017 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Jones (Post 12118858)
Indeed.

I'm catching-up. Men are not identical to women? Is that about right?

Men are better than women at some absolute tests of physical strength.

davefoc 19th December 2017 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Jones (Post 12118858)
Indeed.

I'm catching-up. Men are not identical to women? Is that about right?

Well yes, but then there was the part about Caitlyn Jenner being subject to a rape charge because she lied to her wife when she impregnated her.


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