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-   -   Trans Women are not Women (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=325369)

Roboramma 25th May 2019 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GlennB (Post 12705521)
Meanwhile, how would you even know you're being ogled by a gay man, unless you're in a gay pub or club where it might be assumed that a single man could well be looking for some action?

When I was in San Fransisco last year I joined a public pool. After swimming I went to the sauna and one dude was sort of staring at me. Then I go for a shower and he tried to follow me into the shower. They were individual stalls and I latched the door so it ended when the door didn't open, but that was a little weird.

I also got catcalled from some guys while walking down the street a few times. One time I was waiting for a light to change to cross the street and a guy just straight up propositioned me. That was weird too. Actually it gave me a little window into what women tend to go through every day of their lives, except that while it was weird I was never bothered because I didn't feel physically intimidated. But imagining a woman in the exact same situation I could see things being very different.

Puppycow 25th May 2019 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Francesca R (Post 12706353)
Fair enough. I think that wiki definition is far too non encompassing of a phenomenon that exists and is common and not necessarily distressing to anybody. I would also say that the fantasy you describe is autogynaephilia

But I acknowledge I will not get anywhere trying to re-write convention.

Sure, but that means that it is not a phenomenon that is unique to transexuals, as Blanchard's theory seems too imply. It's also something that biological women can experience.

IsThisTheLife 25th May 2019 10:57 AM

I'd say that the nearest a hetero male (and homophobe) like me can get to feeling how women do when they receive unwanted attention from men is indeed, as has been suggested, getting the same from homosexual men,

They seem to go about it in exactly the same way as their hetero, male sexist pig counterparts, using 'risque' jokes, shoehorning innuendo or even explicit sexual references into converation, etc'. When I was very young it used to freak me out somewhat, now I'll usually snort derisively or tell them they're not my type.

Belz... 25th May 2019 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife (Post 12706384)
I'd say that the nearest a hetero male (and homophobe) like me can get to feeling how women do when they receive unwanted attention from men is indeed, as has been suggested, getting the same from homosexual men,

They seem to go about it in exactly the same way as their hetero, male sexist pig counterparts, using 'risque' jokes, shoehorning innuendo or even explicit sexual references into converation, etc'. When I was very young it used to freak me out somewhat, now I'll usually snort derisively or tell them they're not my type.

One wonders why you'd either be afraid of or hate homosexuals. They seem harmless enough.

GlennB 25th May 2019 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roboramma (Post 12706355)
When I was in San Fransisco last year I joined a public pool. After swimming I went to the sauna and one dude was sort of staring at me. Then I go for a shower and he tried to follow me into the shower. They were individual stalls and I latched the door so it ended when the door didn't open, but that was a little weird.

I also got catcalled from some guys while walking down the street a few times. One time I was waiting for a light to change to cross the street and a guy just straight up propositioned me. That was weird too. Actually it gave me a little window into what women tend to go through every day of their lives, except that while it was weird I was never bothered because I didn't feel physically intimidated. But imagining a woman in the exact same situation I could see things being very different.

Aye. In all my years I've only been 'propositioned' twice by men, both times in a gay pub in London, and both times the encounter was 'polite' for want of a better word. Never cat-called or wolf-whistled by the male oafs up the scaffolding on the building site, never groped by a man on the bus or train.

Women put up with far more crap in this regard than men do, and I can see no good reason to allow self-certified 'women' into female safe spaces to add, perhaps massively, to that crap.

Rolfe 25th May 2019 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Puppycow (Post 12706363)
Sure, but that means that it is not a phenomenon that is unique to transexuals, as Blanchard's theory seems too imply. It's also something that biological women can experience.


Point of information. Only a minority of men with autogynaephilia progress as far as wanting to transition. Blanchard himself has discussed setting up support services for men who want to manage their autogynaephilia without putting their marriages in jeopardy or progressing to transition.

It's not something women can experience. That's like saying most women are homosexual because they're aroused by the thought of sex with a man (the definition of homosexuality in males). Autoandrophilia (the female equivalent) doesn't seem to exist or if it does it's not something that drives females to transition. (There is a very similar phenomenon, where a woman desires to participate in male homosexual sex as a male, which does drive transition though, and the distinction is quite fine.)

Puppycow 25th May 2019 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rolfe (Post 12706460)
Point of information. Only a minority of men with autogynaephilia progress as far as wanting to transition. Blanchard himself has discussed setting up support services for men who want to manage their autogynaephilia without putting their marriages in jeopardy or progressing to transition.

It's not something women can experience. That's like saying most women are homosexual because they're aroused by the thought of sex with a man (the definition of homosexuality in males). Autoandrophilia (the female equivalent) doesn't seem to exist or if it does it's not something that drives females to transition. (There is a very similar phenomenon, where a woman desires to participate in male homosexual sex as a male, which does drive transition though, and the distinction is quite fine.)

And yet, FtM transgender people exist, and apparently (given recent trends) in even greater numbers lately. What does Blanchard's theory have to say about them? As far as I can tell, he doesn't even address the topic of FtM. My question is, not that "autogynaephilia" exists, but whether it is what causes gender dysphoria.

tyr_13 25th May 2019 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Belz... (Post 12705850)
In your own words, please?

Well, no. You don't accept the answer I've given, won't clarify with context, and experience says you'll probably just dismiss it anyway as 'all about the feeling' because self-reported feelings do factor in.


Quote:

Look, I said it was a typo. Sheesh. Can you now admit that I didn't do a "no, you"?
Well, no, because that was the trust of your reply. You denied (the 'no'), and turned the criticism around (the 'you!'). Yeah, I should have said 'you are'.

You could read on the diagnostic criteria, but as you're unwilling to do that, well, not much point in trying to get more nuanced than that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by d4m10n (Post 12705866)
Suppose all they asked for was "no dicks out" (for Harambe or otherwise) in the ladies changing rooms / ponds / etc.

That's actually super easy, yeah? Would you be okay with it?

That's not what they want though. In your hypothetical, there wouldn't be a need to invoke unscientific hypothesis that have no place in modern study.

But yes, I think most people would find that acceptable when everyone is acting in good faith.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meadmaker (Post 12705988)
snip

From there, a lot of people have jumped to, "See! Blanchard is a fraud! Totally discredited." Well, not so fast.

snip

What I think is clear, assuming we accept the data, is that Blanchard's descriptions of two categories is not an exhaustive description of all transgender people...

That right there totally discredits his hypothesis though. That, alone, means he's wrong.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Francesca R (Post 12706322)
Really? I don't think so. I think that would be unsafe.

At the least, it (autogynaephilia) fits many observations in an intuitive way. It is also highly plausible that many if not most males (not just self identifying trans women) would loathe the existence of this as a correct diagnosis, and be very keen to deny it and see it discredited.

So that's a green flag for acceptance and a big red one against rejection.

That makes the hypothesis unfalsifiable, and thus not scientific.

The existence of bisexual and asexual trans women cannot simply be dismissed because the hypothesis says they're all lying and/or delusional. Being insulting doesn't insulate a hypothesis.


And again, I'll point out that his ideas have not made it into treatments or panned out through other studies. And that, again, the opinions of some people self-identifying as skeptics here does not reflect the current science, and it won't effect it because it isn't supported by the evidence.

tyr_13 25th May 2019 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Puppycow (Post 12706511)
And yet, FtM transgender people exist, and apparently (given recent trends) in even greater numbers lately. What does Blanchard's theory have to say about them? As far as I can tell, he doesn't even address the topic of FtM. My question is, not that "autogynaephilia" exists, but whether it is what causes gender dysphoria.

Yes, this. I think people are forgetting that for Blanchard's hypothesis to be true, it has to cause people to become trans gender. And not just some of them, all trans women.

theprestige 25th May 2019 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Belz... (Post 12706451)
One wonders why you'd either be afraid of or hate homosexuals. They seem harmless enough.

A lot of people are pretty squicked out by the idea of butt sex.

Plus, if there's one thing we can learn from transgenderism is that questions of sex and gender identity can be pretty close to the core of person's self image. If some men are deeply uncomfortable with the idea of being a man, surely some men are uncomfortable with the idea of *not* being a man.

Plus a whole host of other possibilities.

I try not to judge too harshly people who are uncomfortable about the idea of homosexuality.

Unless you're his therapist, it's probably none of your business why.

d4m10n 25th May 2019 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyr_13 (Post 12706515)
I think people are forgetting that for Blanchard's hypothesis to be true, [autogynaephilia] has to cause people to become trans gender. And not just some of them, all trans women.

I doubt Blanchard ever said that, given only a wiki level skim of his stuff.

Puppycow 25th May 2019 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyr_13 (Post 12706515)
Yes, this. I think people are forgetting that for Blanchard's hypothesis to be true, it has to cause people to become trans gender. And not just some of them, all trans women.

Quote:

Originally Posted by d4m10n (Post 12706519)
I doubt Blanchard ever said that, given only a wiki level skim of his stuff.

He said there are two categories, one is homosexual men, and the other is some kind of misplaced heterosexuality. In both cases, however, it seems to be motivated by adult male sexuality. I do think his theories are dated, and also don't account for the phenomenon in young children or in women very well.

IsThisTheLife 25th May 2019 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Belz... (Post 12706451)
One wonders why you'd either be afraid of or hate homosexuals. They seem harmless enough.

You tell me. Hard-wired/instinct or pathology (as neo-liberals insist)? I'm not talking about finding gay men repellent but of the idea or suggestion of gay sex, which I do, being forced into my consciousness.

theprestige 25th May 2019 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife (Post 12706577)
You tell me. Hard-wired/instinct or pathology (as neo-liberals insist)? I'm not talking about finding gay men repellent but of the idea or suggestion of gay sex, which I do, being forced into my consciousness.

Slow your roll, bro. You're way out of your league here.

IsThisTheLife 25th May 2019 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Belz... (Post 12706451)
One wonders why you'd either be afraid of or hate homosexuals. They seem harmless enough.

I assume you're male, and by the sound of it hetero? Have you been hit on much by typical, insatiably promiscuous homos? Maybe you're not as good-looking, lithe and athletic as I was (I confess I can't really be described thus at the age I am now)? I can tell you, in my late teens and even beyond it made me very uncomfortable, but as I got older the sheer presumptuousness just pissed me off.

IsThisTheLife 25th May 2019 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12706583)
Slow your roll, bro. You're way out of your league here.

No idea WTF you're saying.

IsThisTheLife 25th May 2019 04:47 PM

It just occurred to me a flash of realisation that, again when I was at an age of inexperience, I occasionally had to fend off what can only be described as aggressive advances by 'older women' that were completely unexpected/unsolicited, and they too were a bit freaky to my young, naive self. Maybe that too is how women of any age can be made to feel by unwanted male advances? ****, maybe women aren't the only recipients of unwanted, aggressive advances? Surely not?

Roboramma 25th May 2019 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GlennB (Post 12706452)

Women put up with far more crap in this regard than men do, and I can see no good reason to allow self-certified 'women' into female safe spaces to add, perhaps massively, to that crap.

Yep, Iím with you on both of those points.

Venom 25th May 2019 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife (Post 12706599)
It just occurred to me a flash of realisation that, again when I was at an age of inexperience, I occasionally had to fend off what can only be described as aggressive advances by 'older women' that were completely unexpected/unsolicited, and they too were a bit freaky to my young, naive self. Maybe that too is how women of any age can be made to feel by unwanted male advances? ****, maybe women aren't the only recipients of unwanted, aggressive advances? Surely not?

You don't think you were more in control as a man than if you were a woman?
I think if I were a woman, lesbian or not, I'd feel a tad less safe in the presence of a man.

TomB 25th May 2019 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Francesca R (Post 12706348)
I understand the answer. I don't agree with it or find it useful though.

Dysphoria is unease or dissatisfaction. The counterpart to that is ease and satisfaction. The example (and let's not single out a forum member) is a male experiencing ease with the idea of being female. Which in fact he is not and can not be. However temporary, that seems to also be dis-ease about being male.

So it seems like the same thing to me. I don't think distress is always an issue. Technically, at the time when a man is highly interested in imagining himself to be female, he would be uninterested and "distressed" in that moment to think of himself as male. It might account for 0.05% of his waking hours and be immensely enjoyable and nothing else.

It seems to fit gender (actually sex) dysphoria to me, which can surely exist along a spectrum from "never causes any issue" to "significant problem" and in between

Actually yes there is, if that is either the origin or an inextricable part of the dysphoria. Doesn't mean that is always an association to be made.

No. If a man were fantasizing about being a woman he does not need to be distressed to think of himself as male. I'm a programmer and biologist. If I fantasize about being Indiana Jones I don't need to feel uncomfortable with my real life profession. Not even momentarily. Fantasizing about a different life does not necessarily imply discontent with your current life.

TomB 25th May 2019 09:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Belz... (Post 12706350)
Then how are they trans? How do we define it? I've asked this question before, and other than "they feel like the other gender" I've gotten nothing.

Francesca was referring to Puppycow describing a sexual fantasy where he is female. But he is not trans and does not desire to be a woman. He is not distressed or uncomfortable with being a male and therefore not dysphoric.

My definition of trans requires dysphoria. (I'm aware there is debate among trans people as to whether dysphoria is required to be trans.) While it is likely true that they are the other sex in their sexual fantasies, their dysphoria does not revolve around intercourse. It involves pretty much everything they do and, just like cis people, not everything is sexual.

The truth is I don't understand it. I'm not really sure someone without dysphoria can really understand it. Somethings just really can't be described. What does the color blue look like?

It's very easy to view it in terms of sexual gratification of some sort. That's something we can imagine. And I think that's why so many people write trans people off as some kind of sexual perversion. Especially when there are fetishes and such that look an lot like transgender. (Rocky Horror Picture Show?) But I think that's too simplistic.

Now, if you DO classify trans-genderism as primarily revolving around sexual gratification it makes the whole argument about how trans people fit into gendered spaces very nearly black and white. But I think it's more complicated than that.

TomB 25th May 2019 09:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rolfe (Post 12706460)
It's not something women can experience. That's like saying most women are homosexual because they're aroused by the thought of sex with a man (the definition of homosexuality in males). Autoandrophilia (the female equivalent) doesn't seem to exist or if it does it's not something that drives females to transition. (There is a very similar phenomenon, where a woman desires to participate in male homosexual sex as a male, which does drive transition though, and the distinction is quite fine.)

I think it does exist. I once dated a woman who told me she fantasized about being a man for a week to see how many women she could....

But your contention is that autogynophelia drives men to transition but autoandrophilia does not drive women to transition. Yet women transition, so SOMETHING must drive them to do so. What is this something? And why is that something also not the thing that drives men to transition?

Puppycow 25th May 2019 09:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife (Post 12706599)
It just occurred to me a flash of realisation that, again when I was at an age of inexperience, I occasionally had to fend off what can only be described as aggressive advances by 'older women' that were completely unexpected/unsolicited, and they too were a bit freaky to my young, naive self. Maybe that too is how women of any age can be made to feel by unwanted male advances? ****, maybe women aren't the only recipients of unwanted, aggressive advances? Surely not?

Did they take no for an answer?

That's usually the difference I think. It's easier for a man to say "No, I'm not interested. Piss off," than for a woman to say the same thing to a man.

Belz... 26th May 2019 02:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyr_13 (Post 12706512)
Well, no. You don't accept the answer I've given, won't clarify with context, and experience says you'll probably just dismiss it anyway as 'all about the feeling' because self-reported feelings do factor in.

1) You've not given me an answer.
2) There's no specific context. I'm asking you how you define the term. Do you ask someone for context if they ask you to define "table"? Surely the definition of "trans" doesn't depend on a specific context, here?
3) That's because so far all the definitions given, as I already said, amount to "they feel like a woman". How else would I describe it if not self-reported feelings and nothing else? That follows directly from the definition!

It seems like you simply know you can't come up with a definition that makes sense, so you're trying to blame your failure on someone else, namely me.

Quote:

Well, no, because that was the trust of your reply. You denied (the 'no'), and turned the criticism around (the 'you!').
I did not.

Quote:

You could read on the diagnostic criteria
But that's not what I'm looking for. Why would I read something that won't answer my question?

Stop dodging.

Belz... 26th May 2019 02:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12706517)
A lot of people are pretty squicked out by the idea of butt sex.

But that doesn't translate into hating them. I'm squicked out by the idea of eating mushrooms, but I don't hate people who do.

Belz... 26th May 2019 02:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife (Post 12706584)
I assume you're male, and by the sound of it hetero? Have you been hit on much by typical, insatiably promiscuous homos? Maybe you're not as good-looking, lithe and athletic as I was (I confess I can't really be described thus at the age I am now)? I can tell you, in my late teens and even beyond it made me very uncomfortable, but as I got older the sheer presumptuousness just pissed me off.

By that logic, if a woman's been hit on by men they have no interest in, they could become misandrists?

You're not making any sense.

Quote:

I'm not talking about finding gay men repellent but of the idea or suggestion of gay sex, which I do, being forced into my consciousness.
So what? Plenty of things are forced into our consciousness all the time. We live in a society and that means living with people who are different, sometimes to an uncomfortable degree. Live with it.

Belz... 26th May 2019 02:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TomB (Post 12706723)
My definition of trans requires dysphoria.

That's my take on it as well, which is why I asked the question I asked.

cullennz 26th May 2019 02:41 AM

Men hit on women

Men hit on men

Women hit on men

Women hit on women

One of the funniest moments of my life was going out with my wife and a couple of her gay dude work mates to a "gay bar" when I was younger.

We managed to get separated when I was trying to find a bog.

It was extremely humorous being latched on by every second bloke, but hardly traumitising

cullennz 26th May 2019 02:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Puppycow (Post 12706725)
Did they take no for an answer?

That's usually the difference I think. It's easier for a man to say "No, I'm not interested. Piss off," than for a woman to say the same thing to a man.

I would question this in the majority of situations.

People are atuned to a women's voice in trouble far more than a mans.

A woman yells people usually notice

GlennB 26th May 2019 03:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cullennz (Post 12706820)
I would question this in the majority of situations.

People are atuned to a women's voice in trouble far more than a mans.

A woman yells people usually notice

It often doesn't amount to the kind of 'trouble' that warrants a scream or even a distressed voice, just a low-grade nagging harassment. Woman in pub just wants a drink and a read of her paper before going about her business, but gets approached by some twat who assumes she's 'in the market'. Then rebuffed, he's miffed and makes snide comments about her. I've seen it a hundred times but you rarely see the reverse.

Are there many female equivalents of Harvey Weinstein, or the male rush-hour groper on the train?

Japan struggles to overcome its groping problem

'They just donít see us as human': women speak out on France's harassment problem


and so on ...

cullennz 26th May 2019 03:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GlennB (Post 12706826)
It often doesn't amount to the kind of 'trouble' that warrants a scream or even a distressed voice, just a low-grade nagging harassment. Woman in pub just wants a drink and a read of her paper before going about her business, but gets approached by some twat who assumes she's 'in the market'. Then rebuffed, he's miffed and makes snide comments about her. I've seen it a hundred times but you rarely see the reverse.

Are there many female equivalents of Harvey Weinstein, or the male rush-hour groper on the train?



and so on ...

Fair point.

Francesca R 26th May 2019 04:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Puppycow (Post 12706363)
Sure, but that means that it is not a phenomenon that is unique to transexuals, as Blanchard's theory seems too imply. It's also something that biological women can experience.

Autogynaephilia isn't something women can experience. Seems to invoke nonsensical twisting of reality to say otherwise

cullennz 26th May 2019 04:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Francesca R (Post 12706835)
Autogynaephilia isn't something women can experience. Seems to invoke nonsensical twisting of reality to say otherwise

Had to google that

Geezes there are some big words for a load of pants

Rolfe 26th May 2019 06:47 AM

Since a bunch of people don't seem to have the remotest clue what Blanchard's typography actually says, why not read this article?

Gender dysphoria is not one thing

Also, this happened in Leeds yesterday.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

Transcript here.

Francesca R 26th May 2019 08:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyr_13 (Post 12706512)
The existence of bisexual and asexual trans women cannot simply be dismissed because the hypothesis says they're all lying and/or delusional.

Agreed.

But I don't see the relevance. Unless these are claims that the Blanchard guy has made. If they are I think that discredits him, but not the theory, nay reality, that autogynaephilia exists, is common, and manifests in varying degrees from fun to severe sex dysphoria.

Francesca R 26th May 2019 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TomB (Post 12706711)
If a man were fantasizing about being a woman he does not need to be distressed to think of himself as male

Ease of thinking oneself to be female = unease of thinking oneself male. At least at the time one is doing this.

You probably want to throw that out too. OK. But to my mind ease/comfort at imaging oneself to be of the other sex is the same thing as what is termed gender dysphoria. Just to a different degree. And I think this matters.

Rolfe 26th May 2019 09:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Francesca R (Post 12706974)
Agreed.

But I don't see the relevance. Unless these are claims that the Blanchard guy has made. If they are I think that discredits him, but not the theory, nay reality, that autogynaephilia exists, is common, and manifests in varying degrees from fun to severe sex dysphoria.


Tyr appears to have absolutely no idea what Blanchard's typography actually says. Every time he mentions it he grossly misrepresents it. If you read the article I linked to above, which was co-authored by Blanchard, you can find out what he's actually saying. It's nothing like what Tyr is saying. He makes up a straw man and then attacks that.

Francesca R 26th May 2019 09:12 AM

I have read it because you've posted it before. But I can't remember all the details or exact positions of the authors.

Either way it doesn't matter, I am not defending Mr Blanchard and am not his spokesperson. I am claiming that autogynaephilia (which seems to be a term coined by this person?) does exist and is common in a variable degree of intensity. I do not know nor have any position on the extent of overlap with trans women but I suspect most males who experience autogynaephiia never approach that category.

In extreme cases, it seems both highly plausible and congruent with observation that sufferers attach hate to the sex they want to be but can not be, and this could be exaggerated in the case of gay women who "should" desire the sufferer but in fact want nothing from them.

Rolfe 26th May 2019 10:07 AM

The claims Tyr has made are not "claims that Blanchard guy (Dr Ray Blanchard) has made". He doesn't seem to have a clue what Blanchard's position actually is. He reads contrived criticisms of it, jumps to erroneous conclusions about what it is, and then attacks these straw men.

As I understand it you're right about autogynaephilia, more or less. It's often relatively mild and by no means all autogynaephiles transition. It's not something that affects women at all. Blanchard coined the term because he thought the previous term was either inappropriate or a bit demeaning or something like that.

Belz... 26th May 2019 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cullennz (Post 12706839)
Had to google that

After all this time?


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