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-   -   White House Survivor (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=321828)

acbytesla 7th January 2021 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by d4m10n (Post 13352062)
Have any U.S. appeals courts ever gone for the broader interpretation? Any legal scholars of note?

No.

Section 4 of the 25th has never been invoked. It probably should have been when Hinckley attempted to assassinate Reagan and he had to undergo surgery. It was considered by his cabinet when symptoms of Reagan's Alzheimer's started to appear during his second term.

My guess is SCOTUS would stay out of it. Not the kind of thing they want to rule on.

dirtywick 7th January 2021 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by d4m10n (Post 13352066)
The 25th Amendment was drafted to cover a specific set of physical or mental incapacities. It is folly to pretend it's intended to function as a backdoor impeachment/removal mechanism as well.

I think it’s reasonably arguable he’s not mentally able to fulfill his duties, he appears to be having some kind of delusional mental breakdown

In any case, there’s a specific section of the amendment detailing how to resolve a situation in which the president refutes his inability to fulfill his duties. if he feels he should still be president, he’s free to argue his case to congress and they decide

Tero 7th January 2021 07:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dudalb (Post 13352051)
Vos just quit.
One of the biggest rats left leaves the ship.

Her yachts needed a supervisor to oversee the brass polishing crew?

acbytesla 7th January 2021 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Segnosaur (Post 13352075)
Plus, given the fact that Trump seemed to have torpedoed the Republican's chances in Georgia, and has attacked Moscow Mitch in the past couple of months, I don't think McConnell would feel much loyalty to Trump.

And that's assuming he's still senate Majority leader if the 25th amendment reaches congress. Its possible that the 2 new Democratic senators from georgia might be seated by then, and the Democrats will be in control.

No, they likely wouldn't be. The State of Georgia has until January 22nd to certify the election.

Segnosaur 7th January 2021 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by d4m10n (Post 13352066)
The 25th Amendment was drafted to cover a specific set of physical or mental incapacities. It is folly to pretend it's intended to function as a backdoor impeachment/removal mechanism as well.

Whatever the original intent of the 25th amendment, the actual text gives no such "specific set" of incapacities.

acbytesla 7th January 2021 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirtywick (Post 13352077)
I think it’s reasonably arguable he’s not mentally able to fulfill his duties, he appears to be having some kind of delusional mental breakdown

In any case, there’s a specific section of the amendment detailing how to resolve a situation in which the president refutes his inability to fulfill his duties. if he feels he should still be president, he’s free to argue his case to congress and they decide

:thumbsup:

Precisely.

acbytesla 7th January 2021 07:59 PM

Should be noted that Pence has said he won't invoke the 25th. So the question is moot.

Trebuchet 7th January 2021 08:31 PM

Just wondering if only confirmed members of the cabinet count. Because about half of them are "acting".

Meadmaker 7th January 2021 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirtywick (Post 13352054)
someone unwilling to uphold the constitution is unable to, due to a lack of will

of course no explanation is needed. if the they invoke the 25th whatever reasoning the choose to apply is irrelevant if it’s enough to get the votes

It's one of those cases where if you have the votes, then they have the votes, and indeed no explanation is needed, either for impeachment or for 25th amendment. However, if you don't have the votes, it's awfully hard to get them if you are working against the spirit of the law.

The amendment was meant for people who were physically or mentally disabled and could not execute the duties of the President. It won't be easy to convince people to make the declaration of "unable" in some different circumstance. It's not impossible, but it's a tough sell. Basically, unless they think he's dangerous, they won't do it.

And, you don't have to convince me that he's dangerous. You have to convince people like Ben Carson and Betsy DeVoss.

Meadmaker 7th January 2021 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trebuchet (Post 13352142)
Just wondering if only confirmed members of the cabinet count. Because about half of them are "acting".

I wondered the same thing. I think the definitive answer would have to come from the Supreme Court. My guess is that they would rule that "acting" should be included. After all, they are the current head of that department, doing everything the regular Secretary would do. That includes voting on the 25th amendment, but it would be a court fight.

I read that Pence has signaled he won't support it, so the question is moot.

It's impeachment, or another two weeks of Trump.

acbytesla 7th January 2021 08:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meadmaker (Post 13352147)
I wondered the same thing. I think the definitive answer would have to come from the Supreme Court. My guess is that they would rule that "acting" should be included. After all, they are the current head of that department, doing everything the regular Secretary would do. That includes voting on the 25th amendment, but it would be a court fight.

I read that Pence has signaled he won't support it, so the question is moot.

It's impeachment, or another two weeks of Trump.

Only confirmed members count. I think.

The 25th is a Constitutional prescription. Calling Joe Schmoe an official member of the cabinet seems very questionable. They are merely "acting" members until they are confirmed.

Resume 7th January 2021 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meadmaker (Post 13352147)
I wondered the same thing. I think the definitive answer would have to come from the Supreme Court. My guess is that they would rule that "acting" should be included. After all, they are the current head of that department, doing everything the regular Secretary would do. That includes voting on the 25th amendment, but it would be a court fight.

I read that Pence has signaled he won't support it, so the question is moot.

It's impeachment, or another two weeks of Trump.

Two weeks is a long time for nuts like Trump. People were talking impeachment after his second perfect phone call, and folks wondered (maybe even you) what he was going to do to deflect attention. Well, we found out, didn't we? And it looks as if he'll get away with all of it, all of it; his sycophants are already emboldened and with few repercussions for the last insurrection event, you can bet more are planned. In fact, law enforcement is already running down scenarios for more unrest at the Capitol and at the inaugural.

dirtywick 7th January 2021 09:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meadmaker (Post 13352145)
It's one of those cases where if you have the votes, then they have the votes, and indeed no explanation is needed, either for impeachment or for 25th amendment. However, if you don't have the votes, it's awfully hard to get them if you are working against the spirit of the law.

The amendment was meant for people who were physically or mentally disabled and could not execute the duties of the President. It won't be easy to convince people to make the declaration of "unable" in some different circumstance. It's not impossible, but it's a tough sell. Basically, unless they think he's dangerous, they won't do it.

And, you don't have to convince me that he's dangerous. You have to convince people like Ben Carson and Betsy DeVoss.

i'm certain they wouldn't even try unless they knew with absolute certainty they had the votes between congress and the cabinet.

i agree that he's dangerous and, if the cabinet resignations mean anything, perhaps they were closer to invoking the 25th than anyone realizes

Meadmaker 7th January 2021 09:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Resume (Post 13352154)
Two weeks is a long time for nuts like Trump. People were talking impeachment after his second perfect phone call, and folks wondered (maybe even you) what he was going to do to deflect attention. Well, we found out, didn't we? And it looks as if he'll get away with all of it, all of it; his sycophants are already emboldened and with few repercussions for the last insurrection event, you can bet more are planned. In fact, law enforcement is already running down scenarios for more unrest at the Capitol and at the inaugural.

Yeah, that's the weird thing. The media is all in on Trump hating. We're all in on Trump hating. With this last stunt, even a huge chunk of Republican leadership is all, or at least mostly in on Trump hating. But his base? Nothing shakes them. Right now the "Antifa did it" isn't taken seriously except by a handful of crackpots. Repeat it enough times, though, and it will become true in their eyes. Already, "This is no worse than the BLM protests." is pretty much doctrine.

Mumbles 7th January 2021 10:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dudalb (Post 13352051)
Vos just quit.
One of the biggest rats left leaves the ship.

And the president of the American Federation of Teachers has released a statement on the matter:

Quote:

“Good Riddance.”

DevilsAdvocate 7th January 2021 10:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mumbles (Post 13352224)

Terse.

timhau 7th January 2021 10:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate (Post 13352233)
Terse.

And stylish. Needless words omitted.

dudalb 7th January 2021 10:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mumbles (Post 13352224)

Should have added the traditional "To Bad Garbage".

Jim_MDP 8th January 2021 04:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dudalb (Post 13352241)
Should have added the traditional "To Bad Garbage".

"rubbish"
It's important for the cadence. [emoji1]

The Great Zaganza 8th January 2021 04:16 AM

just in:

Trump resigned to avoid getting fired my Trump for making him look bad on how he handled the insurrection.
Trump hopes that this decisive move will cause FB and Twitter to reinstate his accounts and online shops.

Tero 8th January 2021 07:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza (Post 13352414)
just in:

Trump resigned to avoid getting fired by Trump for making him look bad on how he handled the insurrection.
Trump hopes that this decisive move will cause FB and Twitter to reinstate his accounts and online shops.

we don't know what you are saying

The Great Zaganza 8th January 2021 08:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tero (Post 13352598)
we don't know what you are saying

I assume that Trump is trying to come up with a way to get himself out of this - and failing.

alfaniner 8th January 2021 08:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tero (Post 13352598)
we don't know what you are saying

I think it's supposed to be future speculation.

PhantomWolf 8th January 2021 09:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy (Post 13352012)
A delay is only likely to happen if they want him out of office without a vote. That basically would require McConnell to go rogue. Not impossible. It was his wife that resigned today.

Both parts of Congress have to hold a vote. Moscow Mitch doesn't control the House.

Segnosaur 8th January 2021 09:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf (Post 13353920)
Quote:

A delay is only likely to happen if they want him out of office without a vote. That basically would require McConnell to go rogue. Not impossible. It was his wife that resigned today.
Both parts of Congress have to hold a vote. Moscow Mitch doesn't control the House.

True, but I think the House would be willing to vote on Impeachment right away. Its only the republican-controlled senate that would be the potential delay.

RecoveringYuppy 8th January 2021 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf (Post 13353920)
Both parts of Congress have to hold a vote. Moscow Mitch doesn't control the House.

No, both parts do not have to hold a vote. And god ******* damn you must be stupid if you can't figure out why only one really matters.

PhantomWolf 8th January 2021 09:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy (Post 13353937)
No, both parts do not have to hold a vote.

Thereupon Congress shall decide the issue, assembling within forty-eight hours for that purpose if not in session. If the Congress, within twenty-one days after receipt of the latter written declaration, or, if Congress is not in session, within twenty-one days after Congress is required to assemble, determines by two-thirds vote of both Houses that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall continue to discharge the same as Acting President; otherwise, the President shall resume the powers and duties of his office.

PhantomWolf 8th January 2021 09:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Segnosaur (Post 13353921)
True, but I think the House would be willing to vote on Impeachment right away. Its only the republican-controlled senate that would be the potential delay.

Weren't talking Impeachment, were talking 25th Amendment, which you should know cause it was your post that started this part of the thread.

RecoveringYuppy 8th January 2021 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf (Post 13353939)
Thereupon Congress shall decide the issue, assembling within forty-eight hours for that purpose if not in session. If the Congress, within twenty-one days after receipt of the latter written declaration, or, if Congress is not in session, within twenty-one days after Congress is required to assemble, determines by two-thirds vote of both Houses that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall continue to discharge the same as Acting President; otherwise, the President shall resume the powers and duties of his office.

Read my post again to see my edit.

PhantomWolf 8th January 2021 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy (Post 13353937)
No, both parts do not have to hold a vote. And god ******* damn you must be stupid if you can't figure out why only one really matters.

just saving this ad hominem for posterity for when you start to feel like a fool.

PhantomWolf 8th January 2021 10:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy (Post 13353941)
Read my post again to see my edit.

You mean the part where you breached the TOS of this forum?

The Great Zaganza 9th January 2021 05:43 AM

The only reason why Cabinet Members are resigning is so that they won't have to vote on a possible 25th Amendment use.

d4m10n 9th January 2021 07:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza (Post 13354200)
The only reason why Cabinet Members are resigning is so that they won't have to vote on a possible 25th Amendment use.

I think we can safely say this solution is off the table.

https://twitter.com/nationalpost/sta...95632375181317

The Great Zaganza 9th January 2021 07:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by d4m10n (Post 13354239)
I think we can safely say this solution is off the table.

https://twitter.com/nationalpost/sta...95632375181317

sure, but Chao couldn't be sure at the time.
And it's a bit too late to resign "in protest" when you are about to be called to vote on the President's unfitness.

Firestone 11th January 2021 02:53 PM

Acting DHS Secretary Chad Wolf is stepping down.

Trebuchet 11th January 2021 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Firestone (Post 13357277)
Acting DHS Secretary Chad Wolf is stepping down.

Another coward avoiding the 25th.

Segnosaur 11th January 2021 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trebuchet (Post 13357560)
Quote:

Acting DHS Secretary Chad Wolf is stepping down.
Another coward avoiding the 25th.

Not necessarily.

It hasn't been tested in the court of law, but there are some legal analysts who think that the 25th amendment can only be voted on/invoked by confirmed members of the cabinet. Since wolf was only the acting secretary, he might not have been allowed to vote to get rid of Trump anyways.

Still a douche bag, but for reasons other than avoiding the 25th.

d4m10n 11th January 2021 06:37 PM

No cabinet leaders are avoiding the 25th so long as Pence refuses to inititate the process in the first place.

acbytesla 11th January 2021 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Segnosaur (Post 13357568)
Not necessarily.

It hasn't been tested in the court of law, but there are some legal analysts who think that the 25th amendment can only be voted on/invoked by confirmed members of the cabinet. Since wolf was only the acting secretary, he might not have been allowed to vote to get rid of Trump anyways.

Still a douche bag, but for reasons other than avoiding the 25th.

Courts already have said the Wolf doesn't have the authority as a full fledged secretary when he attempted to destroy DACA.

Sherkeu 11th January 2021 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza (Post 13354200)
The only reason why Cabinet Members are resigning is so that they won't have to vote on a possible 25th Amendment use.

They are out of a job soon anyway, but as a matter of transition, can they now be hired as consultants by the Biden team? Might be best of both worlds at this time. They can give honest info without intrusions of "the boss" and still get paid (not that most of them need it!).


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