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-   -   Merged: Questioning the existence or non-existence of spirits/Pseudo-skeptics (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=338287)

Ricardo 16th August 2019 09:32 AM

Questioning the existence or non-existence of spirits/Pseudo-skeptics
 
Is there anything more desperate than this thought of utter destruction? Holy affections, intelligence, progress, laboriously acquired knowledge, everything will be annihilated, everything will be lost! What is the need of the effort to become better, the repression to contain your passions, to be tired to adorn your Spirit, if you must not recollect it? no fruit, above all, with the thought that tomorrow maybe this will do us no good? If so, man's luck would be a hundred times worse than that of the animal, because the animal lives entirely in the present, in the satisfaction of its material appetites, without aspiration for the future. A secret intuition says this is not possible.

8enotto 16th August 2019 09:49 AM

Why does an empty space worry you? What profound greatness have any of us achieved that our passing will leave the rest to be meaningless?

Live while you have life. Make the most of it. Worry about what comes when it's yours to deal with.

Ricardo 16th August 2019 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 8enotto (Post 12789203)
Why does an empty space worry you? What profound greatness have any of us achieved that our passing will leave the rest to be meaningless?

Live while you have life. Make the most of it. Worry about what comes when it's yours to deal with.

why do you think there is no life after death?

Ricardo 16th August 2019 10:06 AM

Man's intelligence is a property of matter, born and dies with the organism. Man is nothing before and nothing after bodily life. Consequence - Man, being only matter, has only material enjoyment as real and desirable. Moral affections have no future. With death moral bonds are broken forever. The miseries of life are unrewarded, suicide becomes the rational and logical end of existence when one has no hope of alleviating suffering, when it is useless to impose one's self. obligation to overcome bad trends. Live for yourself while you are here; it is stupid to be bored and to sacrifice one's own rest, well-being, for the sake of another, that is, for beings who in turn will be annihilated and never to be seen again. Social duties, good and evil are agreed, the social brake is reduced to the material power of civil law.

TragicMonkey 16th August 2019 10:13 AM

Was the period of time before your conception upsetting or unpleasant for you? There's no reason to suppose the experience after death won't be exactly like that was.

Belz... 16th August 2019 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ricardo (Post 12789188)
Questioning the existence or non-existence of spirits

The only way to resolve this one is to present evidence of their existence.

Quote:

Is there anything more desperate than this thought of utter destruction?
I don't know. What do you want to do about it? We all die at some point. If you don't believe in life after death, then that's it. That it depressed you changes nothing. I suppose you could start to believe to relieve this problem, but then you'd be living a lie.

Quote:

What is the need of the effort to become better, the repression to contain your passions, to be tired to adorn your Spirit, if you must not recollect it?
Things are worth more when they are finite.

Belz... 16th August 2019 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ricardo (Post 12789213)
why do you think there is no life after death?

You keep asking the wrong questions. The answer is always the same: no evidence.

Quote:

Man's intelligence is a property of matter, born and dies with the organism. Man is nothing before and nothing after bodily life. Consequence - Man, being only matter, has only material enjoyment as real and desirable. Moral affections have no future. With death moral bonds are broken forever. The miseries of life are unrewarded, suicide becomes the rational and logical end of existence when one has no hope of alleviating suffering, when it is useless to impose one's self. obligation to overcome bad trends. Live for yourself while you are here; it is stupid to be bored and to sacrifice one's own rest, well-being, for the sake of another, that is, for beings who in turn will be annihilated and never to be seen again. Social duties, good and evil are agreed, the social brake is reduced to the material power of civil law.
Dude, find a hobby.

Ricardo 16th August 2019 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Belz... (Post 12789237)
You keep asking the wrong questions. The answer is always the same: no evidence.



Dude, find a hobby.

Want to know my religion? I'm a spiritist ... and what is your ideology or religion? I have to know to debate with you! Another question do you know Spiritism?

Joe Random 16th August 2019 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Belz... (Post 12789237)
<...>

Dude, find a hobby.


I rather think he has ...

Ricardo 16th August 2019 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey (Post 12789233)
Was the period of time before your conception upsetting or unpleasant for you? There's no reason to suppose the experience after death won't be exactly like that was.

Don't you understand what I wrote?

Belz... 16th August 2019 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ricardo (Post 12789247)
Want to know my religion?

No.

That has nothing to do with the post you responded to.

Quote:

Don't you understand what I wrote?
Irony!

Ricardo 16th August 2019 10:28 AM

are you skeptical and atheist?

8enotto 16th August 2019 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ricardo (Post 12789213)
why do you think there is no life after death?

There is no source of information saying there is life after death. There is no common event or unquestioneable proof saying it is so.
Those who preach or otherwise seek this come up with no definitive or repeatable conclusion.

Thus it is a void, nothing to anticipate or fear. Just a void.

Belz... 16th August 2019 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ricardo (Post 12789259)
can't refute what i wrote! That's why you make these comments!

There's nothing to refute. You have made not a single claim and presented no evidence whatsoever. You're just wasting everyone's time which, I suppose, is the whole point.

Pope130 16th August 2019 10:31 AM

Marcus Aurelius. He addressed this question some time ago:

“Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.”



That works for me.

Ricardo 16th August 2019 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Belz... (Post 12789264)
There's nothing to refute. You have made not a single claim and presented no evidence whatsoever. You're just wasting everyone's time which, I suppose, is the whole point.

answer my question ! do you know what spiritualism is? what's your ideology? you do not want to answer !

Scorpion 16th August 2019 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ricardo (Post 12789247)
Want to know my religion? I'm a spiritist ... and what is your ideology or religion? I have to know to debate with you! Another question do you know Spiritism?

See my thread, Scorpions spiritualism. You will find I have offered evidential messages from the spirit world that I have received, but the skeptics on this forum find alternative explanations for them that deny the existence of spirits.
They say subjective experiences and anecdotes are not evidence.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=277159

8enotto 16th August 2019 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ricardo (Post 12789247)
Want to know my religion? I'm a spiritist ... and what is your ideology or religion? I have to know to debate with you! Another question do you know Spiritism?

We need to add some substance to this. What is spiritism?

Ricardo 16th August 2019 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 8enotto (Post 12789260)
There is no source of information saying there is life after death. There is no common event or unquestioneable proof saying it is so.
Those who preach or otherwise seek this come up with no definitive or repeatable conclusion.

Thus it is a void, nothing to anticipate or fear. Just a void.

are you sure ? do you know spiritualism? or Spiritist Doctrine? I can recommend you the books ... so it will be easier to discuss with you!

Ricardo 16th August 2019 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Belz... (Post 12789264)
There's nothing to refute. You have made not a single claim and presented no evidence whatsoever. You're just wasting everyone's time which, I suppose, is the whole point.

are you sure ? do you know spiritualism? or Spiritist Doctrine? I can recommend you the books ... so it will be easier to discuss with you!

Ricardo 16th August 2019 10:38 AM

BELZ .. answer me are you an atheist? are you skeptical? Are you agnostic? answer ! Why do not you answer ?

Ricardo 16th August 2019 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 8enotto (Post 12789274)
We need to add some substance to this. What is spiritism?

and what is your religion or ideology?

Ricardo 16th August 2019 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scorpion (Post 12789271)
See my thread, Scorpions spiritualism. You will find I have offered evidential messages from the spirit world that I have received, but the skeptics on this forum find alternative explanations for them that deny the existence of spirits.
They say subjective experiences and anecdotes are not evidence.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=277159

they are not skeptics .... they are pseudo-skeptics! can't debate with pseudo-skeptics!

Ricardo 16th August 2019 10:47 AM

These pseudo-skeptics don't even know about the Spiritist Doctrine ... the debate is over before it begins! Waste of time with pseudo-skeptics!

TragicMonkey 16th August 2019 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pope130 (Post 12789265)
Marcus Aurelius. He addressed this question some time ago:

“Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.”



That works for me.

I find as time passes and I grow older the Stoic philosophy grows in appeal and seems to make more and more sense. I enjoy an unruffled serene existence currently, and sometimes marvel at the chaos and folly of those with more exciting lives.

Scorpion 16th August 2019 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ricardo (Post 12789290)
These pseudo-skeptics don't even know about the Spiritist Doctrine ... the debate is over before it begins! Waste of time with pseudo-skeptics!

I have explained some of spiritualist beliefs on a couple of threads here over the years. But its hard going. Most of my threads end up with people wanting me to excuse Hitler, or the killing of children. Or some other negative views.

Ricardo 16th August 2019 10:55 AM

pseudo-skeptics or pathological skepticism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudoskepticism

Ricardo 16th August 2019 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scorpion (Post 12789299)
I have explained some of spiritualist beliefs on a couple of threads here over the years. But its hard going. Most of my threads end up with people wanting me to excuse Hitler, or the killing of children. Or some other negative views.

they need to study about pseudo-skepticism! they don't even know what pseudo-skepticism is!

Scorpion 16th August 2019 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ricardo (Post 12789305)
they need to study about pseudo-skepticism! they don't even know what pseudo-skepticism is!

Before just writing off all the posters on the forum out of hand, why not spell out the details of what you actually believe, and see what they make of it?

Ricardo 16th August 2019 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scorpion (Post 12789313)
Before just writing off all the posters on the forum out of hand, why not spell out the details of what you actually believe, and see what they make of it?

I want to debate skeptics ... not pseudo-skeptics! pseudo skeptics are worse than fanatical believers!

Scorpion 16th August 2019 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ricardo (Post 12789315)
I want to debate skeptics ... not pseudo-skeptics! pseudo skeptics are worse than fanatical believers!

Well, I for one would like to hear your views about spiritualism.

I have said spirits told me we reincarnate many times, and face karma before eventually reaching a state of grace or enlightenment, after which we continue on evolving in the spirit world as immortals.

I have said until we reach such a state of grace we reincarnate and spend time in the spirit world between incarnations, and during that time we assimilate the experiences of our recent lifetime.

Is this what you believe?

Myriad 16th August 2019 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ricardo (Post 12789290)
These pseudo-skeptics don't even know about the Spiritist Doctrine ... the debate is over before it begins! Waste of time with pseudo-skeptics!


On pages 26 and 27 of the thread Scorpion linked to, I raised several objections and important questions about the spiritualist reincarnation narrative as I understand it. I was disappointed that Scorpion didn't reply to most of them, though it's understandable as he was responding to many other members throughout the thread.

I'm interested in discussing it in depth, even to the point of reading books you recommended provided they provide deeper answers to specific questions we're already discussing. The key question I want to address (excerpted from that thread, with a few tweaks) is this:

Quote:

Any reincarnated successor "self" of mine... doesn't have my current memories of my current life. Doesn't have my learned knowledge or beliefs (those being types of memories). Doesn't have my specific genetic physical characteristics. Doesn't have my life history of interactions with the world. Doesn't share the follow-ons of that history (such as, people who know me, things I've written, property I used to own... all of which, if I had merely lost all my memories but were still living, would still be associated with me even if I didn't remember them myself).

So, in what way is that successor myself? The only thing we share is eventual future access to some hypothetical locked-away memory store that will be restored to "me" at some future time along my supposedly educational spiritual journey.

Aside from that, the reincarnation narrative tells me that I have far more in common with you than with any of my predecessor or reincarnated successor "selves." You and I share large amounts of culture, similar environments we've lived in and experiences we've lived through, and perhaps a common language in which we can actually converse. That's not true of my reincarnated selves. I can't talk to them, they can't talk to me; they live in my past and future, and most likely in far-away places with different ways of life. They're complete strangers.

Why would I be tempted to single out a few specific past and future lives, rather than the people I know around me today (or, perhaps, every conscious being), as additional "selves" of mine? What qualifies them for that distinction?

Ricardo 16th August 2019 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scorpion (Post 12789321)
Well, I for one would like to hear your views about spiritualism.

I have said spirits told me we reincarnate many times, and face karma before eventually reaching a state of grace or enlightenment, after which we continue on evolving in the spirit world as immortals.

I have said until we reach such a state of grace we reincarnate and spend time in the spirit world between incarnations, and during that time we assimilate the experiences of our recent lifetime.

Is this what you believe?

I believe in the Spiritist doctrine ... codified by Allan Kardec!

8enotto 16th August 2019 11:22 AM

I watch a program on Mexican tv called Extranormal. It is a set group of investigation and interpretation specialists.

Polished presentation of nothing. Bugs on security camera lens and blurry video only a bigfeetz fan could love and of course testimony from hillbillies with a 3rd grade education. And then they go and investigate. They find tricks of light in glass, wind moving stuff and sounds happening off camera.

And the say pseudo Christian prayers and start fires un the floor to drive off the spirits or demons. They have a exspurt on both after all.

Those spirits? Dead gramma and the moth in the security camera?

Ricardo 16th August 2019 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Myriad (Post 12789322)
On pages 26 and 27 of the thread Scorpion linked to, I raised several objections and important questions about the spiritualist reincarnation narrative as I understand it. I was disappointed that Scorpion didn't reply to most of them, though it's understandable as he was responding to many other members throughout the thread.

I'm interested in discussing it in depth, even to the point of reading books you recommended provided they provide deeper answers to specific questions we're already discussing. The key question I want to address (excerpted from that thread, with a few tweaks) is this:

can i recommend books in english language you want? reading will answer these questions ok

Ricardo 16th August 2019 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 8enotto (Post 12789326)
I watch a program on Mexican tv called Extranormal. It is a set group of investigation and interpretaction specialists.

Polished presentation of nothing. Bugs on security camera lens and blurry video only a bigfeetz fan could love and of course testimony from hillbillies with a 3rd grade education. And then they go and investigate. They find tricks of light in glass, wind moving stuff and sounds happening off camera.

And the say pseudo Christian prayers and start fires un the floor to drive off the spirits or demons. They have a exspurt on both after all.

Those spirits? Dead grammar and the moth in the security camera?

this is not spiritist doctrine .. do you want to know what spiritist doctrine really is ...? After studying you will have every right to accept or decline it .. but you will know what it really is! do you want me to send you the links of the books in english ... can i see if it has translation to mexican language? Are you a woman or a man?

Scorpion 16th August 2019 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ricardo (Post 12789325)
I believe in the Spiritist doctrine ... codified by Allan Kardec!

I have not studied Allan Kardec. I spent many years attending spiritualist churches, and I also attended many trance lectures at the spiritualist association in London during the 1970's. There I went to trance lectures by Ursula Roberts and Ivy Northage among others.
I also went to 'White Eagle lodge' and heard trance lectures by Grace Cook.

abaddon 16th August 2019 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ricardo (Post 12789331)
can i recommend books in english language you want? reading will answer these questions ok

Nope. Not reading that utter crap again.

Ricardo 16th August 2019 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scorpion (Post 12789338)
I have not studied Allan Kardec. I spent many years attending spiritualist churches, and I also attended many trance lectures at the spiritualist association in London during the 1970's. There I went to trance lectures by Ursula Roberts and Ivy Northage among others.
I also went to 'White Eagle lodge' and heard trance lectures by Grace Cook.

Want Allan Kardec's book links?

Ricardo 16th August 2019 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by abaddon (Post 12789341)
Nope. Not reading that utter crap again.

you have want to read about pseudo-skepticism! you know Marcello Truzzi


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