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-   -   Neutrino Power (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=338482)

Solitaire 28th August 2019 07:38 AM

Neutrino Power
 
They thought us mad for thinking we could get power from neutrinos.
They said a neutrinos can pass through a trillion mile block of lead without hitting anything.
Little did they know we had a trillion and one mile block of lead.
Neutrino Energy: The site's a little sparse on the details.

Quote:


Banks Will No Longer Finance Fossil Fuels

...

Preliminary experiments have been conducted that have produced energy
from neutrinos in laboratory settings. It has now been clearly demonstrated
that harvesting energy from neutrinos is possible, and the only step remaining
is to make this technology available in a mass-produced consumer format.

What does that mean?
Do they have a working prototype?
Or do they just have a patent?

I know, rarely, that neutrinos smack into matter and release energy,
but that's not the same thing as producing energy for useful work.


P. S. Oh wow. A copyright date of 2022.

catsmate 28th August 2019 07:46 AM

It's garbage.
Quote:

Banks Will No Longer Finance Fossil Fuels
Is a lie.

The rest is a fixture of distortions, half-truths, lies and pseudoscience.

RecoveringYuppy 28th August 2019 08:00 AM

Sounds like tripe to me.

Only 3% if the energy released by the Sun is in the form of neutrinos. We'd be talking covering something like a third of the Earth in neutrino collectors to be significant. And I'd strongly suspect I'm giving the idea too much credit just by bothering to look that up.

Craig B 28th August 2019 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by catsmate (Post 12801246)
It's garbage.

Is a lie.

The rest is a fixture of distortions, half-truths, lies and pseudoscience.

I've had a look and even to my scientifically uninformed mind, the site seems to have been created by swindlers or humorists. They even promise a neutrino powered car, but there isn't anything on the page devoted to this topic. It has to be a joke.

Horatius 28th August 2019 08:47 AM

Fools! It's been done already!

Canadian Patent Application CA2283528

Quote:

Direct uses of neutrino energy
Abstract
A layered device uses electric currents or grating surfaces to create differential neutrino forces on diamagnetic materials transmitted to electrostrictive (piezoelectric) material so as to generate output power or mechanical force. A superconducting conductor using carbon isotope C14 is described.

The means by which he discovered this breakthrough are, of course, scientifically unimpeachable:


Quote:

I have trained myself to see in neutrino light. After an hour with my eyes totally dark adapted in a light free room and unable to see any visible light whatsoever. I believe that I can, with intense mental concentration, see in neutrino light. I know of no other wave form with the penetrating capability which I observe. I can see, for example, reflected sparkles from a crystal of metallic bismuth in or out of boxes, giving support to the use of bismuth in this invention as described in more detail hereinunder. I can also see colors of the bismuth, reflected neutrino light off of flat stones and other evidence of the behavior of neutrino light. I believe that while most neutrinos flow between atoms due to the great distances between atoms as compared to their global diameter, a fraction bounce around off of the atoms giving the observed effects. Of course, with the immense energy of the neutrino field, the few that bounce off still represent considerable energy.

This observed behavior of neutrino light in relation to bismuth has been utilized by this inventer in developing the inventive devices hereinbelow. In support of the validity of this ability I have demonstrated that, within the darkened room, I can distinguish between three identical boxes, carefully packed for equal weights. One box contains a bismuth crystal, one an identical weight of stone and the third with an identical weight of iron.

Wudang 28th August 2019 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Craig B (Post 12801297)
I've had a look and even to my scientifically uninformed mind, the site seems to have been created by swindlers or humorists. They even promise a neutrino powered car, but there isn't anything on the page devoted to this topic. It has to be a joke.


Many years ago (20+) a pal gave me a leaflet for an alt-med festival in Manchester. Alongside the bongo player who said that the bongo vibrations cured cancer there was an ad for a neutrino therapy which said neutrinos were TFL particles that have been used to power cars.

catsmate 28th August 2019 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Horatius (Post 12801319)
Fools! It's been done already!

Canadian Patent Application CA2283528

Doctor Who did it years earlier. And with better science.

RecoveringYuppy 28th August 2019 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wudang (Post 12801352)
Alongside the bongo player who said that the bongo vibrations cured cancer there was an ad for a neutrino therapy which said neutrinos were TFL particles that have been used to power cars.

What's a TFL particle?

ETA: FTL? As in Faster Than Light? Wrong, of course, if so.

Craig B 28th August 2019 09:42 AM

I am intrigued by eyes that are able to discern
reflected neutrino light off of flat stones
Given that neutrinos can seemingly pass through trillions of kms of solid lead, one wonders how many of them are reflected from the surface of a stone, however flat it may be.

Wudang 28th August 2019 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy (Post 12801374)
What's a TFL particle?

ETA: FTL? As in Faster Than Light? Wrong, of course, if so.


Damn it. 2 memories merged. The ad was about tachyon power.

The worst 2 things about getting old are losing my memory and ... and ... have I said losing my memory?

Steve001 28th August 2019 10:37 AM

Didn't watch the whole vid but appears to be talking about the same.
https://youtu.be/shE4W_9UQP8

BowlOfRed 28th August 2019 10:48 AM

I assume these neutrino folks think faster-than-light is involved here as well. The earth image in the background of the page is spinning east-to-west. That must mean that someone is moving backward in time!

Dr.Sid 28th August 2019 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BowlOfRed (Post 12801482)
I assume these neutrino folks think faster-than-light is involved here as well. The earth image in the background of the page is spinning east-to-west. That must mean that someone is moving backward in time!

Depends if you interpret the image as if the north pole is closer to you, or the south pole. Maybe they are from Australia !

RecoveringYuppy 28th August 2019 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr.Sid (Post 12801533)
Depends if you interpret the image as if the north pole is closer to you, or the south pole. Maybe they are from Australia !

Also depends, if it's a photo from orbit, whether you are above or below geosynchronous orbit.

Lukraak_Sisser 28th August 2019 12:05 PM

There's an xkcd that explains the likelyhood

https://what-if.xkcd.com/73/

BStrong 28th August 2019 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Horatius (Post 12801319)
Fools! It's been done already!

Canadian Patent Application CA2283528




The means by which he discovered this breakthrough are, of course, scientifically unimpeachable:

I'm betting the "crystal" that is referred to is crystal meth.

casebro 28th August 2019 07:13 PM

Looks like the NK cells they want are in the 'Buffy Coat' layer. If/when, Donations will be done at UCSD, not a plasma collection center. So I don't know if they'll take the whole plasma and keep it or if the centrifuge separates the buffy at the table? Or once they find out I am AB+, they just drain me dry?

Reality Check 28th August 2019 08:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solitaire (Post 12801233)
Neutrino Energy: The site's a little sparse on the details.
...
What does that mean?

Unfortunately what it means is this is either a crank web site or a scammer's web site. The physical fact is that neutrinos interact too rarely with matter to be an energy source other than billions of times weaker than sunlight.

A "Scientific Advisory Board" of dozens of "scientists".
A chairman that looks like a general practitioner ("GP Erwin Wolski (Chairman)"
Prof. Dr.-Ing. Konstantin Meyl (German Wikipedia) who is charitably labeled as holding "pseudoscientific hypotheses and assertions". He looks like a crank who believes the Earth expands because it absorbs neutrinos and has a incoherent unified theory.

catsmate 29th August 2019 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by casebro (Post 12801990)
Looks like the NK cells they want are in the 'Buffy Coat' layer. If/when, Donations will be done at UCSD, not a plasma collection center. So I don't know if they'll take the whole plasma and keep it or if the centrifuge separates the buffy at the table? Or once they find out I am AB+, they just drain me dry?

I think you're in the wrong thread. This is neutrino woo.
And no, it's AB- donors that are drained dry.

Belz... 29th August 2019 09:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solitaire (Post 12801233)
They thought us mad for thinking we could get power from neutrinos.
They said a neutrinos can pass through a trillion mile block of lead without hitting anything.
Little did they know we had a trillion and one mile block of lead.
Neutrino Energy: The site's a little sparse on the details.




What does that mean?
Do they have a working prototype?
Or do they just have a patent?

I know, rarely, that neutrinos smack into matter and release energy,
but that's not the same thing as producing energy for useful work.


P. S. Oh wow. A copyright date of 2022.

Physically impossible. The only reason why we've detected neutrinos is because, once in a blue moon, one of them hits something. There's no way to generate enough of them to have any useable impact without creating a whole bunch of planet-busting radiation in the process. And if you're going to heat up water for turbines anyway, just use the damned nuclear reactions.

Belz... 29th August 2019 09:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wudang (Post 12801414)
Damn it. 2 memories merged. The ad was about tachyon power.

Now, tachyons actually do go faster than light. The only problem with using them as a source of power is that, currently, we're unable to properly store them, due to the fact that they are fictional.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser (Post 12801551)
There's an xkcd that explains the likelyhood

https://what-if.xkcd.com/73/

I love that one. Cool and informative all at once.

xterra 29th August 2019 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Belz... (Post 12802606)
Physically impossible. The only reason why we've detected neutrinos is because, once in a blue moon, one of them hits something. There's no way to generate enough of them to have any useable impact without creating a whole bunch of planet-busting radiation in the process. And if you're going to heat up water for turbines anyway, just use the damned nuclear reactions.




For an interesting look at the science and engineering of neutrino detection, read The Telescope in the Ice, by Mark Bowen.

Horatius 29th August 2019 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Belz... (Post 12802612)
Now, tachyons actually do go faster than light. The only problem with using them as a source of power is that, currently, we're unable to properly store them



Shows what you know. I've got a device that packs tachyons into convenient 1-liter containers. There's only one problem. When you slow them down enough to keep in bottles, they stop being tachyons.

Armitage72 30th August 2019 05:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by catsmate (Post 12801246)
It's garbage.

Quote:

Banks Will No Longer Finance Fossil Fuels
Is a lie.

The rest is a fixture of distortions, half-truths, lies and pseudoscience.


It reminds me of a book I read in which is was posited that the development of cheap and efficient fusion power would lead to the abandonment of petroleum and the collapse of the economies of the Middle East. People seem to have an inaccurate impression of the amount of fossil fuels used for energy production compared to motor vehicle fuel and other applications.
New power source -> Global abandonment of internal combustion vehicles in favor of electric vehicles -> Abandonment of fossil fuels is a little more plausible, on a longer timeframe, but the middle step is usually left out.

EDIT: It's also been mentioned here that large amounts of cheap power would make manufacturing petroleum practical, but that doesn't get mentioned in these scenarios either.

Belz... 30th August 2019 05:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Horatius (Post 12802790)
Shows what you know. I've got a device that packs tachyons into convenient 1-liter containers. There's only one problem. When you slow them down enough to keep in bottles, they stop being tachyons.

You can't fool me. They're FTL because of their negative mass, and negative mass objects can't drop to c.

Spektator 30th August 2019 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Belz... (Post 12802612)
Now, tachyons actually do go faster than light. The only problem with using them as a source of power is that, currently, we're unable to properly store them, due to the fact that they are fictional.

Hang about, I've a Klein bottle about somewhere....

Senex 30th August 2019 04:41 PM

The Neutrino Song.


YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

Hans 30th August 2019 04:59 PM

hmmmmmmmmm, maybe they plan to blind the neutrinos so they run into things?

Trebuchet 30th August 2019 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spektator (Post 12804009)
Hang about, I've a Klein bottle about somewhere....

Did you get it from this guy?

JeanTate 30th August 2019 05:38 PM

To get serious ....

For some supernovae, itís the neutrinos which ensure there is an explosion. When the core of a massive star goes endothermic, it collapses. Seems odd, but itís as if itís in a vacuum, the infalling material rapidly picks up speed. Then a baby neutron star forms, at the centre. The incoming crashes onto its surface. Vast quantities of neutrinos are produced. The density quickly becomes so great that the neutrinos collide with the neutron-proton soup, providing a counter pressure. This becomes part of a shock wave that eventually makes it to the starís surface and thus the visible supernova.

In some models, the shock wave stalls, and you get a black hole and an extremely wimpy supernova.

Belz... 30th August 2019 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JeanTate (Post 12804126)
To get serious ....

Shut up. We were having fun, here.

Quote:

For some supernovae, itís the neutrinos which ensure there is an explosion. When the core of a massive star goes endothermic, it collapses. Seems odd, but itís as if itís in a vacuum, the infalling material rapidly picks up speed. Then a baby neutron star forms, at the centre. The incoming crashes onto its surface. Vast quantities of neutrinos are produced. The density quickly becomes so great that the neutrinos collide with the neutron-proton soup, providing a counter pressure. This becomes part of a shock wave that eventually makes it to the starís surface and thus the visible supernova.

In some models, the shock wave stalls, and you get a black hole and an extremely wimpy supernova.
Relatively speaking.

WhatRoughBeast 31st August 2019 01:29 PM

Hmm. The OP link connects to a company which is run by one Holger Thorsten Schubart.

From https://www.presseportal.de/pm/134350/4251755, we get

Quote:

For about 1,000 days, the Berlin-based entrepreneur Holger Thorsten Schubart was imprisoned in southern France and Germany. The charge: heavy fraud with real estate transactions. Schubart reluctantly reports about this time of humiliation and violence. Quote: "To this day, my body is scarred." Drained by pressure from a public prosecutor, Schubart subscribed to a pre-formulated confession in 2003. One of many mistakes Schubart regrets today.
In other words, he did three years for fraud.

Craig B 31st August 2019 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Armitage72 (Post 12803464)
... It's also been mentioned here that large amounts of cheap power would make manufacturing petroleum practical, but that doesn't get mentioned in these scenarios either.

I've read somewhere that it would make possible the production of methanol as motor fuel using industrial, or even atmospheric, sources of CO2. That would be great in terms of reducing fossil fuel use. Is it true that this industry has already commenced in Iceland, where volcanoes supply both abundant energy and plenty of CO2?

Myriad 31st August 2019 02:09 PM

"Your father's neutrino saber. Not as clumsy or random as a blaster. An elegant weapon, for a more civilized age. It goes through anything, even another neutrino saber, but completely harmlessly."

xterra 31st August 2019 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Craig B (Post 12804795)
I've read somewhere that it would make possible the production of methanol as motor fuel using industrial, or even atmospheric, sources of CO2. That would be great in terms of reducing fossil fuel use. Is it true that this industry has already commenced in Iceland, where volcanoes supply both abundant energy and plenty of CO2?


See these links:

http://www.thinkgeoenergy.com/turnin...nt-in-iceland/


https://www.wired.co.uk/article/meth...itish-gasoline




Edit: Ignore the first one, it's a partial paraphrase of the second one.

McHrozni 2nd September 2019 12:08 AM

I think the site is aimed at distorting your view into something else entirely, perhaps discrediting alternative sources. This is from the article:

While concerns over fossil fuels are well-founded, it isn't so simple to deny that humanity is fully dependent on oil, coal, and natural gas. Recently, the American progressive platform has put forward a suite of policies called the "Green New Deal," but this ultra-strict environmental policy has been thoroughly lampooned. Among other things, the Green New Deal calls for the banning of all commercial air travel that uses jet fuel, and there's no viable clean energy alternative to this fossil fuel product that keeps every plane in the world alight.

In addition to suggesting that Americans tear down every building and rebuild it with "green" materials, the Green New Deal proposes a variety of policies that could easily cause humanity to plummet back into the Dark Ages. It's undeniable that we need to end our reliance on fossil fuels, but doing so without having a reliable source of clean energy at hand would make us lose almost all the hard-won benefits of the industrial age.


Em, yeah. Add a dozen spelling and ten grammatical errors, dumb down the sentence structure and you have something out of Trump's Twitter.

Or this garbage:

http://www.globalenergyworld.com/new...anizing-amazon

How The EU, Greenpeace, And Celebrities Worsen Fires And Deforestation By Dehumanizing The Amazon

(...)
But telling Brazilians that they must not cut down the Amazon because of its role storing carbon only strengthens the sense in which Europe’s supposed concern with the Amazon and climate change are really a form of neo-colonialism.

Rallying against EU, Greenpeace and celebrities? Protecing the Amazon is neo-colonialism? Please. The site is not about energy at all, it is about pushing right-wing propaganda points on impressonable (or retarded) youths.

McHrozni

catsmate 2nd September 2019 01:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WhatRoughBeast (Post 12804788)
Hmm. The OP link connects to a company which is run by one Holger Thorsten Schubart.

From https://www.presseportal.de/pm/134350/4251755, we get



In other words, he did three years for fraud.

Oh Schubart has a website dedicated to informing people about his long hisory of frauds;
Neutrino Crime.

HansMustermann 2nd September 2019 08:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Belz... (Post 12802606)
Physically impossible. The only reason why we've detected neutrinos is because, once in a blue moon, one of them hits something. There's no way to generate enough of them to have any useable impact without creating a whole bunch of planet-busting radiation in the process. And if you're going to heat up water for turbines anyway, just use the damned nuclear reactions.

Just to expand on this, neutrinos are fundamentally physically incapable of interacting more than that, no matter what one makes the collectors or reflector stones or whatever from.

The reason is that each interaction is carried over through a particle in QM. So for example when an electron "bounces" on another electron, a photon is involved in between them.

In the case of the weak force, the corresponding particle has orders of magnitude more energy than the neutrino that created it. Which sounds like it would violate conservation of energy -- and it does, sorta -- but the uncertainty principle also says you have an upper cap on ΔEΔt. That is, if you know exactly when something happens, you have a huge uncertainty (at QM scales) about the energy involved, and viceversa. You can't know both energy and time with arbitrarily high precision. So a particle can be created which has a massive ΔE compared to what it should have, if it only lives for an infinitesimal Δt before it interacts with anything.

And therein lies the problem. It being so hugely off the centre of the bell curve already makes it fundamentally a very improbable event. But then comes the fact that it only lives for an infinitesimally short time, so it has to be pretty much already right on top of an atomic nucleus for it to live enough to smash into it.

This, as you'll notice, has nothing to do with what nucleus that is. Some are chosen for detectors for being more stable or bigger or whatnot, but ultimately that's just fine-tuning out the false positives and whatnot. That interaction physically and fundamentally can't happen more often than once in a blue moon with anything whatsoever. (*)

(*) ... well... that is, anything we can make here on Earth. Neutron stars for example will be just one huge nucleus, so that makes the whole star a bloody huge target for that interaction to happen. But we can't exactly make neutronium here on Earth.

ponderingturtle 3rd September 2019 09:34 AM

I just want to know how fast the car with trillions of miles of lead goes.

Horatius 3rd September 2019 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by McHrozni (Post 12805644)
... this fossil fuel product that keeps every plane in the world alight.
...
Em, yeah. Add a dozen spelling and ten grammatical errors, d



I particularly like that one, as it's pretty much the exact opposite of "aloft", which is what they were clearly going for.


Quote:

a∑light1

verb
verb: alight; 3rd person present: alights; past tense: alighted; past participle: alighted; gerund or present participle: alighting

descend from a train, bus, or other form of transport.
"he was the only passenger to alight from the train"
synonyms: get off, step off, get down; More
dismount, disembark, descend, exit;
detrain, deplane;
informalpile out
"he was the only passenger to alight from the train"
antonyms: get on, board
(of a bird) descend from the air and settle.
"a lovely blue swallow alighted on a branch"
synonyms: land, come down, come to rest, touch down, light, arrive, descend; More
Quote:

a∑loft
adverb
adverb: aloft

up in or into the air; overhead.
"the congregation sways, hands aloft"
synonyms: upwards, up, high, higher, into the air, into the sky, skyward, on high, heavenward More
"he hoisted the Cup aloft"
in the air, in the sky, high up, up, high, up above, on high, overhead, above
"the airships were able to stay aloft for many hours"
antonyms: down
up the mast or into the rigging of a sailing vessel.
"Tom went aloft with the bosun"


And these guys are going to upset the entire world energy economy. Right.


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