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-   -   Merged: Justice Deparment Drops Case Against M. Flynn (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=343990)

Stacyhs 7th May 2020 11:51 AM

Justice Deparment Drops Case Against M. Flynn
 
After pleading guilty, the Dept. of Justice (read that "Barr") has dropped charges against Michael Flynn.

This is an unprecedented move. After months of Trump railing against how Flynn was railroaded, etc. Anyone else smell something rotten here?

Quote:

The Justice Department on Thursday dropped its prosecution of former National Security Advisor Michael Flynn, who had pleaded guilty to lying to FBI agents about his conversations with a Russian diplomat in the weeks before President Donald Trump’s inauguration.

The bombshell move, which was granted promptly by the federal judge in the case, comes more than two years after Flynn’s guilty plea and agreement to cooperate with the then-ongoing investigation by special counsel Robert Mueller into Russian interference in the 2016 presidential election.
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/05/07/mich...epartment.html

Skeptic Ginger 7th May 2020 11:52 AM

I'm afraid that stench has been there for a while now.

Trump wants to get his buddies off without sullying his own name before the election. Barr is giving him cover.

Roger Stone charges dropped in 3... 2... 1...

Segnosaur 7th May 2020 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger (Post 13082082)
Trump wants to get his buddies off without sullying his own name before the election. Barr is giving him cover.

Supposedly before Trump came along, Barr and Mueller were friends.

I wonder how Mueller feels about Barr now.

TragicMonkey 7th May 2020 12:09 PM

Dropping charges against someone who's pleading guilty? Isn't that like kicking an own goal?

Stacyhs 7th May 2020 12:15 PM

The JD did not say that Flynn didn't lie (which Flynn admitted he did), only that they can't "prove it" BARD.

Uh huh.

theprestige 7th May 2020 12:19 PM

The lying was a proces crime. The DOJ is dropping the investigation that triggered that process. Because that investigation was bogus to begin with.

Shalamar 7th May 2020 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 13082130)
The lying was a proces crime. The DOJ is dropping the investigation that triggered that process. Because that investigation was bogus to begin with.

Is it only wrong when a Liberal/prog/democrat does it?

Minoosh 7th May 2020 12:43 PM

If there was blatant state overreach then dropping the charges may be the right thing to do, regardless of how one feels about Trump.

Venom 7th May 2020 12:45 PM

Wasn't he set up?

Bob001 7th May 2020 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 13082130)
The lying was a proces crime. The DOJ is dropping the investigation that triggered that process. Because that investigation was bogus to begin with.

What do you think you mean by "process" crime? Lying to federal agents is an actual crime, and Flynn confessed to it in court as part of his plea bargain.

SuburbanTurkey 7th May 2020 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 13082130)
The lying was a proces crime. The DOJ is dropping the investigation that triggered that process. Because that investigation was bogus to begin with.

I have mixed feelings about this.

The feds really seem to enjoy setting up perjury scenarios and nailing people for them, especially if they can't make a larger case. Generally speaking, I am never really comfortable with this. Opponents of Flynn really care more about his involvement with the extremely corrupt Trump election campaign than they do about the importance of not lying to federal agents.

I also have no illusion that Barr's justice department is dropping this after a come-to-jesus moment about this practice. This is obviously about bailing out Trump loyalists. No-one else finding themselves in the perjury trap can expect to get relief, unless they are doing dirty work for Trump.

The Trump era has made for some strange bedfellows. You have libs cheering on federal law enforcement, and conservatives bemoaning the overreach of law enforcement.

Strange times indeed.

Ziggurat 7th May 2020 01:11 PM

DOJ drops case against Flynn
 
The Department of Justice has withdrawn its case against Michael Flynn.

https://apnews.com/ae1ad252bb13490db2ceffc5d17b6d92

This is not terribly surprising, given recent revelations about how the case against Flynn started, and given that the prosecution illegally withheld this information until now. Van Grack is up a creek without a paddle, and he knows it.

ponderingturtle 7th May 2020 01:16 PM

What about all the charges they dropped as part of the plea bargain that is being thrown out?

ponderingturtle 7th May 2020 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob001 (Post 13082166)
What do you think you mean by "process" crime? Lying to federal agents is an actual crime, and Flynn confessed to it in court as part of his plea bargain.

What about all the other crimes dropped as part of his plea bargain are those open again?

Ziggurat 7th May 2020 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle (Post 13082205)
What about all the charges they dropped as part of the plea bargain that is being thrown out?

What about them? Do you think they will be reinstated?

They won't.

theprestige 7th May 2020 01:29 PM

There's already a thread. Sorry.

Ziggurat 7th May 2020 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey (Post 13082109)
Dropping charges against someone who's pleading guilty? Isn't that like kicking an own goal?

I don't think you've been following developments in this case. A lot has changed, and a lot of new information has come out since his initial plea.

Upchurch 7th May 2020 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ziggurat (Post 13082215)
What about them? Do you think they will be reinstated?

They won't.

Of course they won't. Barr has put the DOJ under the political control of Trump.

theprestige 7th May 2020 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob001 (Post 13082166)
What do you think you mean by "process" crime? Lying to federal agents is an actual crime, and Flynn confessed to it in court as part of his plea bargain.

It's a crime that arises from the process of investigating/prosecuting some other crime. It's still a crime, but let's be clear: Lying during a bogus criminal investigation is not the same as committing the crime that's being "investigated". There was no justification for interrogating him, which kind of renders moot his lie during that interrogation.

Ziggurat 7th May 2020 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey (Post 13082172)
I also have no illusion that Barr's justice department is dropping this after a come-to-jesus moment about this practice. This is obviously about bailing out Trump loyalists.

No, it's not a come-to-jesus moment. Van Greck got caught with his pants down. He had a legal obligation to turn over all Brady material to the defense, and recently uncovered documents prove that he didn't. His prosecution was sunk because of that. This is an admission of that fact. You can speculate whether or not that material would have been uncovered for someone else, but 1) it's just speculation, and 2) this is exactly the sort of thing that, if uncovered, can sink a prosecution of anyone.

Upchurch 7th May 2020 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 13082224)
It's a crime that arises from the process of investigating/prosecuting some other crime. It's still a crime, but let's be clear: Lying during a bogus criminal investigation is not the same as committing the crime that's being "investigated".

IANAL, how is it different? Different sentencing guidelines? Different rules for how it is investigated or prosecuted?

Ziggurat 7th May 2020 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob001 (Post 13082166)
What do you think you mean by "process" crime?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Process_crime

The underlying crime they were nominally investigating was a violation of the Logan act. If you're familiar with this act and its history, you will know why that's a farce.

Ziggurat 7th May 2020 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Upchurch (Post 13082222)
Of course they won't. Barr has put the DOJ under the political control of Trump.

It's funny that you think anyone could complete a prosecution of Flynn at this point, given the recently uncovered documents.

Babbylonian 7th May 2020 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ziggurat (Post 13082238)
It's funny that you think anyone could complete a prosecution of Flynn at this point, given the recently uncovered documents.

Which ones, specifically, do you think undermine the case? Please quote fully the relevant portions.

carlitos 7th May 2020 02:01 PM

Bogus criminal investigation? The guy was an unregistered lobbyist for Turkey, writing editorials while he was being named National Security Adviser.

Ziggurat 7th May 2020 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carlitos (Post 13082257)
Bogus criminal investigation? The guy was an unregistered lobbyist for Turkey, writing editorials while he was being named National Security Adviser.

That wasn't what he was charged with, that wasn't what he plead to, and that had nothing to do with why he was being investigated.

Ziggurat 7th May 2020 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Babbylonian (Post 13082241)
Which ones, specifically, do you think undermine the case? Please quote fully the relevant portions.

As one (but not the only) example:
https://www.scribd.com/document/459057200/doc-188
Handwritten note from an agent:
"What's our goal? Truth/Admission or to get him to lie, so we can prosecute him or get him fired?"

Not only is this suggestive of an illegitimate purpose for the investigation of Flynn, but just as importantly in terms of the case against Flynn, this is Brady material. Withholding it from the defense was illegal. Given the protracted fight that Flynn had in order to get this material, the fact that it came out this late in the process after Van Grack swore up and down to the court that everything had already been turned over, basically dooms any hope that any prosecutor could have ever had in going forward with the case against Flynn.

If there was ever a legitimate case against Flynn, Van Grack ****** it up beyond any hope of repair. And if you think he did it to protect Trump, you need to share your drugs with the rest of the class.

a_unique_person 7th May 2020 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ziggurat (Post 13082238)
It's funny that you think anyone could complete a prosecution of Flynn at this point, given the recently uncovered documents.

It's funny that you think there is anything in those documents that is outside standard police procedure.

Ziggurat 7th May 2020 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by a_unique_person (Post 13082290)
It's funny that you think there is anything in those documents that is outside standard police procedure.

First, to the extent that you're right, that's pretty damning of standard police procedure. Second, as I keep having to point out because people want to ignore it, the fact that this stuff wasn't turned over to the defense years ago is at least as much of a problem as the contents themselves.

a_unique_person 7th May 2020 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Venom (Post 13082164)
Wasn't he set up?

Didn't he set himself up?

KDLarsen 7th May 2020 02:49 PM

Judge Sullivan will have to accept the DoJ dropping the case. With Flynn already having appeared in court and admitting to lying to the FBI, there is grounds for sentencing him on the basis of that.

It'll get appealed and trump will sic his followers on Judge Sullivan, so who knows what'll happen.

smartcooky 7th May 2020 02:51 PM

I'd far rather see the case dropped than see him get a pardon. With the case dropped, jeopardy doesn't attach, and once Trump is gone, and the rotten core of the DOJ is cleaned out, with the corrupt AG replaced with with someone who has integrity, the DOJ will be able to take the case up again, and prosecute the traitorous SOB and lock his arse up.

Flynn sold his country down the river for personal gain, to the Russians and the Turks of all people. He might not technically have committed treason, but he is a traitor nonetheless in every other way.

Ziggurat 7th May 2020 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smartcooky (Post 13082304)
I'd far rather see the case dropped than see him get a pardon. With the case dropped, jeopardy doesn't attach, and once Trump is gone, and the rotten core of the DOJ is cleaned out, with the corrupt AG replaced with with someone who has integrity, the DOJ will be able to take the case up again, and prosecute the traitorous SOB and lock his arse up.

Flynn sold his country down the river for personal gain, to the Russians and the Turks of all people. He might not technically have committed treason, but he is a traitor nonetheless in every other way.

I guarantee you that the case will never be picked up again, no matter who becomes president. If you think otherwise, it's because you haven't actually paid attention to the case, and don't actually understand why it was dropped.

Ziggurat 7th May 2020 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KDLarsen (Post 13082303)
Judge Sullivan will have to accept the DoJ dropping the case. With Flynn already having appeared in court and admitting to lying to the FBI, there is grounds for sentencing him on the basis of that.

That's some pretty deep delusion you've got going on there.

Flynn will never be sentenced.

Captain_Swoop 7th May 2020 03:05 PM

it was dropped because the president and all his minions are ********** of the first degree, corrupt to the core. If you think anything else you are a deluded fool.

Captain_Swoop 7th May 2020 03:06 PM

America is dead as a nation of any integrity, it is a criminal state. trump has corrupted it to the core.

Ziggurat 7th May 2020 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop (Post 13082327)
it was dropped because the president and all his minions are ********** of the first degree, corrupt to the core. If you think anything else you are a deluded fool.

Bitch and moan all you want, but none of your complaining will make any of this true. The recent document dump was damning for the case against Flynn. That's simply an objective fact. And as time goes by, even Trump-hostile legal experts are going to have to admit that.

Shalamar 7th May 2020 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ziggurat (Post 13082322)
That's some pretty deep delusion you've got going on there.

Flynn will never be sentenced.

Of course not. He's a conservative under a conservative government. It's not wrong if you're a republican.

Bob001 7th May 2020 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shalamar (Post 13082340)
Of course not. He's a conservative under a conservative government. It's not wrong if you're a republican.

Let's not abuse the once-honorable word conservative. They are right-wing extremists. Ronald Reagan and George H.W. Bush would be expelled from today's Repub Party as soft-hearted socialists.

Shalamar 7th May 2020 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob001 (Post 13082351)
Let's not abuse the once-honorable word conservative. They are right-wing extremists. Ronald Reagan and George H.W. Bush would be expelled from today's Repub Party as soft-hearted socialists.

The current crop of conservatives. I mean, Flynns crimes being dismissed is being celebrated by conservatives here. it's not wrong if you're a republican.

They would be dancing to a different tune if Flynn was a Democrat under a Democratic government.


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