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-   -   Resolved: Trump is guilty, literally, of murder (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=346636)

Horatius 9th September 2020 10:52 AM

Resolved: Trump is guilty, literally, of murder
 
So, it's now proven beyond any semblance of a doubt that Trump knew that COVID-19 was a significant threat to the lives of Americans who would contract it, but chose to lie and downplay the threat to further his own agenda. I submit that, by refusing to tell the truth, and refusing to take actions he knew were needed to protect lives, and actually taking actions that increased the risk of infection and death in the United States, Trump is literally guilty of murder in the deaths of an indeterminate, but significant, percentage of the total deaths that have occurred in the US.


Quote:

In United States law, depraved-heart murder, also known as depraved-indifference murder, is a type of murder where an individual acts with a "depraved indifference" to human life and where such act results in a death, despite that individual not explicitly intending to kill. In a depraved-heart murder, defendants commit an act even though they know their act runs an unusually high risk of causing death or serious bodily harm to a person. If the risk of death or bodily harm is great enough, ignoring it demonstrates a "depraved indifference" to human life and the resulting death is considered to have been committed with malice aforethought.[1][2] In some states, depraved-heart killings constitute second-degree murder,[3] while in others, the act would be charged with varying degrees of manslaughter[4] or third-degree murder.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depraved-heart_murder


Under this standard, Trump is guilty. Case Closed.

Safe-Keeper 9th September 2020 10:56 AM

He should definitely be charged with something post-office. Allowing a pandemic to run wild in his home country, purely for backhanded political reasons, just has to be against several laws, Shirley.

Elagabalus 9th September 2020 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper (Post 13217702)
He should definitely be charged with something post-office. Allowing a pandemic to run wild in his home country, purely for backhanded political reasons, just has to be against several laws, Shirley.


I can't believe what he's doing with the USPS!

Cain 9th September 2020 11:12 AM

The President played it down because he didn't want to create a panic. Trump's a truth-teller, but he will lie tell lies when it's for our own good. Democrats tell lies when it's for THEIR own good. Right now they're downplaying the violence in Democrat cities, and how it can spread to the suburbs.

Chanakya 9th September 2020 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cain (Post 13217722)
The President played it down because he didn't want to create a panic. Trump's a truth-teller, but he will lie tell lies when it's for our own good. ...


I wish people would add a smiley or something when they're posting things like this -- unless they're posting in Humor, where we know unfunny jokes are jokes nevertheless -- if it's meant as a joke.

Ziggurat 9th September 2020 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Horatius (Post 13217695)
So, it's now proven beyond any semblance of a doubt that Trump knew that COVID-19 was a significant threat to the lives of Americans who would contract it, but chose to lie and downplay the threat to further his own agenda. I submit that, by refusing to tell the truth, and refusing to take actions he knew were needed to protect lives, and actually taking actions that increased the risk of infection and death in the United States, Trump is literally guilty of murder in the deaths of an indeterminate, but significant, percentage of the total deaths that have occurred in the US.

Since Woodward sat on this for months, I guess that makes him an accomplice to murder.

Horatius 9th September 2020 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ziggurat (Post 13217733)
Since Woodward sat on this for months, I guess that makes him an accomplice to murder.



I'd be okay with that. I suspect we could find quite a few others to put in the dock alongside them.

Thermal 9th September 2020 11:30 AM

Presidents GW Bush, Clinton.....well all of them really.

JoeMorgue 9th September 2020 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ziggurat (Post 13217733)
Since Woodward sat on this for months, I guess that makes him an accomplice to murder.

Oh well that makes murder okay then...

Stacyhs 9th September 2020 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ziggurat (Post 13217733)
Since Woodward sat on this for months, I guess that makes him an accomplice to murder.

And the minimization of Woodward's revelations begins. It didn't take long.

Ziggurat 9th September 2020 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stacyhs (Post 13217763)
And the minimization of Woodward's revelations begins. It didn't take long.

You can't have it both ways. If this is a big deal, then it's a big deal that Woodward sat on it for months too.

Ziggurat 9th September 2020 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue (Post 13217749)
Oh well that makes murder okay then...

Who said that? Not me.

The Great Zaganza 9th September 2020 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cain (Post 13217722)
The President played it down because he didn't want to create a panic. Trump's a truth-teller, but he will lie tell lies when it's for our own good. Democrats tell lies when it's for THEIR own good. Right now they're downplaying the violence in Democrat cities, and how it can spread to the suburbs.

Well done!

The Great Zaganza 9th September 2020 11:51 AM

And no, it's not murder.

it is a massive and deliberate dereliction of duty, exactly what Impeachment was made for.

Skeptic Ginger 9th September 2020 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cain (Post 13217722)
The President played it down because he didn't want to create a panic. Trump's a truth-teller, but he will lie tell lies when it's for our own good. Democrats tell lies when it's for THEIR own good. Right now they're downplaying the violence in Democrat cities, and how it can spread to the suburbs.

We all knew he would come up with an excuse.

But "Lordy there are tapes!"

JoeMorgue 9th September 2020 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ziggurat (Post 13217768)
Who said that? Not me.

Okay boomer. We all totally believe you.

Ziggurat 9th September 2020 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue (Post 13217788)
Okay boomer. We all totally believe you.

You don't have to believe me. You can simply look. Nowhere did I write anything like that. It's you that's asking us to believe I said something that isn't there.

Stacyhs 9th September 2020 11:57 AM

Kayliegh McEnany this morning when asked about Trump's downplaying of the pandemic:

"The President has never lied to the American public."

Un. Freaking. Believable.

JoeMorgue 9th September 2020 11:57 AM

I am however a little lost at what huge revelation this is supposed to be.

Again isn't this another case of "gotcha"ing Trump with evidence of something he already bragged about doing a dozen valid outrages ago?

Yeah Trump let people die because fighting COVID was too hard. Didn't we all already know that? Has Trump ever even denied that?

Skeptic Ginger 9th September 2020 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ziggurat (Post 13217766)
You can't have it both ways. If this is a big deal, then it's a big deal that Woodward sat on it for months too.

I'm going with: Woodward is an ass for waiting until his book release.

How does Trump minimizing the accusation mean Stacy was having it both ways?

Bernstein always was the better man.

JoeMorgue 9th September 2020 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ziggurat (Post 13217793)
You don't have to believe me. You can simply look. Nowhere did I write anything like that. It's you that's asking us to believe I said something that isn't there.

You're adorable. You'd make a great parody of a mob lawyer.

Cain 9th September 2020 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ziggurat (Post 13217733)
Since Woodward sat on this for months, I guess that makes him an accomplice to murder.

Alternatively, it's a sunk cost. Trump had already pivoted, so what would have been the effect of the revelation? The President who survived impeachment gets more bad press? He can murder with impunity -- shoot someone on Fifth Avenue and all of that. We know this isn't something that can be taken to the DA. The only way to avoid Trump is by having another candidate get millions more votes edge him in the Electoral College.

Skeptic Ginger 9th September 2020 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Horatius (Post 13217734)
I'd be okay with that. I suspect we could find quite a few others to put in the dock alongside them.

I think GW and all the people in on those Iraq lies (Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz at a minimum) go above Trump in the murderer category. The thread title is needless hyperbole, IMO.

Skeptic Ginger 9th September 2020 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chanakya (Post 13217729)
I wish people would add a smiley or something when they're posting things like this -- unless they're posting in Humor, where we know unfunny jokes are jokes nevertheless -- if it's meant as a joke.

I don't think you need an emoji to read the sarcasm in that post.

Ziggurat 9th September 2020 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger (Post 13217797)
How does Trump minimizing the accusation mean Stacy was having it both ways?

That's a non-sequitor. Stacy responded to my post, which had nothing to do with Trump's response to the accusation. There's no connection.

Stacyhs 9th September 2020 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger (Post 13217797)
I'm going with: Woodward is an ass for waiting until his book release.

How does Trump minimizing the accusation mean Stacy was having it both ways?

Bernstein always was the better man.

Trump wasn't minimizing it. Zig's very first comment wasn't about what Trump had done, but about what Woodward hadn't done. Zig is always on Trump defense.

Skeptic Ginger 9th September 2020 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ziggurat (Post 13217808)
That's a non-sequitor. Stacy responded to my post, which had nothing to do with Trump's response to the accusation. There's no connection.

Well that doesn't make her having anything both ways either.

So what was she having both ways?

rockysmith76 9th September 2020 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Horatius (Post 13217695)
So, it's now proven beyond any semblance of a doubt that Trump knew that COVID-19 was a significant threat to the lives of Americans who would contract it, but chose to lie and downplay the threat to further his own agenda. I submit that, by refusing to tell the truth, and refusing to take actions he knew were needed to protect lives, and actually taking actions that increased the risk of infection and death in the United States, Trump is literally guilty of murder in the deaths of an indeterminate, but significant, percentage of the total deaths that have occurred in the US.





https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depraved-heart_murder


Under this standard, Trump is guilty. Case Closed.

That doesnt fit the definition of murder, negligent homicide perhaps, not murder.

rockysmith76 9th September 2020 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cain (Post 13217722)
The President played it down because he didn't want to create a panic. Trump's a truth-teller, but he will lie tell lies when it's for our own good. Democrats tell lies when it's for THEIR own good. Right now they're downplaying the violence in Democrat cities, and how it can spread to the suburbs.

Both sides suck

Ziggurat 9th September 2020 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stacyhs (Post 13217813)
Trump wasn't minimizing it. Zig's very first comment wasn't about what Trump had done, but about what Woodward hadn't done. Zig is always on Trump defense.

Either you believe in the standard Horatius put forth in the OP, or you don't.

Horatius has the honesty to apply that standard evenly. You don't.

JoeMorgue 9th September 2020 12:17 PM

Zigg: "Yes your honor I'm not denying that I committed the murder, I'm just saying I saw that one of the witnesses was double parked this morning and it's vitally important that I bring that up..."

Cain 9th September 2020 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockysmith76 (Post 13217819)
Both sides suck

:)

Ziggurat 9th September 2020 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue (Post 13217831)
Zigg: "Yes your honor I'm not denying that I committed the murder, I'm just saying I saw that one of the witnesses was double parked this morning and it's vitally important that I bring that up..."

Now you're accusing me of committing murder?

You've lost it, Joe.

JoeMorgue 9th September 2020 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ziggurat (Post 13217837)
Now you're accusing me of committing murder?

You've lost it, Joe.

*Pinches your cheek* Adorable. Adorable I say.

Horatius 9th September 2020 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza (Post 13217781)
And no, it's not murder.

it is a massive and deliberate dereliction of duty, exactly what Impeachment was made for.


It can be both. How does this not fit the standard as I quoted above? He took deliberate actions, knowing that they would likely result in death. He did it because he didn't care about those deaths, he cared only about his own needs. And it's not just that he failed to take action, which is usually what "dereliction" implies. He actually took actions that actively opposed the best practices as suggested by the most qualified experts he had available.



Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue (Post 13217795)
I am however a little lost at what huge revelation this is supposed to be.

Again isn't this another case of "gotcha"ing Trump with evidence of something he already bragged about doing a dozen valid outrages ago?

Yeah Trump let people die because fighting COVID was too hard. Didn't we all already know that? Has Trump ever even denied that?


Up to now, we've suspected that Trump made deliberate choices that lead to the deaths of hundreds of thousands. But because Trump is also an idiot, there was just enough of a chance that he really was too stupid to understand the problem, and what he should be doing about it, that people could justify letting him off the hook. These recordings now prove that, while he is still an idiot, that's not the reason we're in the mess we're in now. He knew how bad it was, and chose to act as he did.

Skeptic Ginger 9th September 2020 12:26 PM

CNN has a couple excerpts:

'Play it down': Trump admits to concealing the true threat of coronavirus in new Woodward book
Juxtaposed with Trump's public announcements at the same time makes it clear if dismissing the threat is some sort of planned panic mitigation, he's very incompetent at a minimum.


Stick around after that and hear Don Lemon talking about Barr's using the DoJ at taxpayers' expense to take care of Trump's personal legal cases.

JoeMorgue 9th September 2020 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Horatius (Post 13217843)
Up to now, we've suspected that Trump made deliberate choices that lead to the deaths of hundreds of thousands. But because Trump is also an idiot, there was just enough of a chance that he really was too stupid to understand the problem, and what he should be doing about it, that people could justify letting him off the hook. These recordings now prove that, while he is still an idiot, that's not the reason we're in the mess we're in now. He knew how bad it was, and chose to act as he did.

Okay. Does slot in above or below him openly bragging about doing the thing he was currently being impeached for while he was being impeached and then still not getting convicted?

We keep sewing a Scarlet A onto a guy who's wearing a "Adulterer and Proud" t-shirt and act like we've done something.

Safe-Keeper 9th September 2020 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger (Post 13217785)
But "Lordy there are tapes!"

Finally :thumbsup: :D .

Horatius 9th September 2020 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue (Post 13217848)
Okay. Does slot in above or below him openly bragging about doing the thing he was currently being impeached for while he was being impeached and then still not getting convicted?


Above it, for sure. As bad as his Ukraine BS was in terms of illegality, it ultimately had little impact on the lives of those who need to be convinced to vote against him. To them, it was just one more political scandal involving foreigners with hard to pronounce names, that they couldn't keep straight from one day to the next.

But this hits them all directly. Lots have gotten sick, some have died, more of them know people who've died. Millions have been put out of work or lost their businesses because of this.


Quote:

We keep sewing a Scarlet A onto a guy who's wearing a "Adulterer and Proud" t-shirt and dropping the Mic.

Sure, if it were just another affair, his supporters might not care. But there has to be some point at which they will care, right? What if he was found having a homosexual affair? Do you still think his supporters would vote for him?

If we're really at the point that they really don't care about him murdering thousands upon thousands of Americans, we might as well just burn down the country and be done with it.

Mojo 9th September 2020 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chanakya (Post 13217729)
I wish people would add a smiley or something when they're posting things like this -- unless they're posting in Humor, where we know unfunny jokes are jokes nevertheless -- if it's meant as a joke.


It says “Cain” over at the left-hand side doesn’t it?


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