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-   -   The Marjorie Taylor Greene thread. (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=347945)

The Great Zaganza 26th February 2021 10:54 PM

two is just the lowest number at which sex works.
but many species have more than two sexes.

smartcooky 26th February 2021 11:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lurch (Post 13410608)
Well, wouldn't hermaphrodites possibly qualify as a third? They're at least something of a hybrid.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza (Post 13410610)
two is just the lowest number at which sex works.
but many species have more than two sexes.

True and true, but lets not get tied up with edge cases - in confuses the issue.... and the idiots.

Stacyhs 27th February 2021 02:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by newyorkguy (Post 13410489)

When you're a celebrity, they just let you do it! You can do anything!

Random 27th February 2021 06:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smartcooky (Post 13410620)
True and true, but lets not get tied up with edge cases - in confuses the issue.... and the idiots.

But the edge cases give lie to the whole "there are only two genders" thing. She is trying to claim the backing of science, but the science doesn't actually back her.

Distracted1 27th February 2021 07:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minoosh (Post 13410582)
She is telling trans people they shouldn't exist. In fact she's saying they don't exist - they are mistaken. To me, that's a pretty hateful message.

Meanwhile she claims to know the mind of God.

She is saying no such thing. She is neither denying their existence- nor telling them they should not exist.

wareyin 27th February 2021 07:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Distracted1 (Post 13410775)
She is saying no such thing. She is neither denying their existence- nor telling them they should not exist.

She literally says they're just pretending. It's been quoted on this page, but for those who get confused about basic things like flags being symbols this is probably too hard to keep track of.

BobTheCoward 27th February 2021 08:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wareyin (Post 13410794)
She literally says they're just pretending. It's been quoted on this page, but for those who get confused about basic things like flags being symbols this is probably too hard to keep track of.

But you don't cease to exist because you are pretending.

RecoveringYuppy 27th February 2021 08:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smartcooky (Post 13410545)
Nope, I don't! While there are two sexes, sex is not the same as gender.

Sex is a biological construct, a physiological state.

Since Greene invoked science, it's important to point out what the science actually is.

I think it's important to drive the science home since she invoked science and the fundamentalist component of her supporters are working hard to confuse the science on this (and nearly every) issue. And there aren't just two human sexes. And there is just one way to be something other than strictly male or female. There is not even one way to be female or male biologically.

Even if you try a semantic trick of saying there are just two sexes but some people mix them that still contradicts what the right ring wants to believe.

And the Bible says the animals were created male and female and many believe that to be strictly true, but that isn't true either. Across nature there are creatures that are hermaphrodite all their life, sexless, all female species, species that change sex during their life, multiple sexes, some fungi even have hundreds of sexes.


And a brief interjection to this exchange:

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza (Post 13410610)
two is just the lowest number at which sex works. but many species have more than two sexes.

Bacteria engage in plasmid exchange which serves one of the purposes of sex and they don't have sexes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lurch (Post 13410608)
Well, wouldn't hermaphrodites possibly qualify as a third? They're at least something of a hybrid.

Quote:

Originally Posted by smartcooky (Post 13410620)
True and true, but lets not get tied up with edge cases - in confuses the issue.... and the idiots.


Distracted1 27th February 2021 08:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wareyin (Post 13410794)
She literally says they're just pretending. It's been quoted on this page, but for those who get confused about basic things like flags being symbols this is probably too hard to keep track of.

"pretending" is a reasonable interpretation of a man/woman behaving in such a way as to attempt to give the impression that they are a gender other than what they are.

"refusing" is also a reasonable description of someone insisting that they are a gender different from what they are.

These are not hateful, nor discriminotory descriptors. They represent an outlook that is opposed to the agenda pushed by many trans-folk, but they are hardly outside of mainstream ideology. One could argue that calling them "hateful" or "vile" is such a transparent attempt to mischaracterize the sentiments based upon an agenda, that those arguments are just as kooky as a "jewish space laser"

Steve 27th February 2021 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wareyin (Post 13410794)
She literally says they're just pretending. It's been quoted on this page, but for those who get confused about basic things like flags being symbols this is probably too hard to keep track of.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward (Post 13410798)
But you don't cease to exist because you are pretending.

Who, in wareyin's post, is pretending?

BobTheCoward 27th February 2021 08:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve (Post 13410807)
Who, in wareyin's post, is pretending?

I don't think anyone is pretending.

Steve 27th February 2021 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward (Post 13410809)
I don't think anyone is pretending.

So your comment was, as I thought, just noise completely disconnected from the discussion. Thank you for confirming.

Wudang 27th February 2021 09:00 AM

2 threads on twitter discussing the science of gender


https://twitter.com/ScienceVet2/status/1035246030500061184?s=20



https://twitter.com/RebeccaRHelm/status/1207834357639139328?s=20

BobTheCoward 27th February 2021 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve (Post 13410821)
So your comment was, as I thought, just noise completely disconnected from the discussion. Thank you for confirming.

No. I was referring to an allegation that someone is pretending. But I was asked who is pretending. For me to think someone is pretending, I would have to agree with the allegation. And I don't.

Steve 27th February 2021 09:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wudang (Post 13410824)
2 threads on twitter discussing the science of gender


https://twitter.com/ScienceVet2/status/1035246030500061184?s=20



https://twitter.com/RebeccaRHelm/status/1207834357639139328?s=20

Won't help. Greene and her sycophants are blind to reality.

Steve 27th February 2021 09:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward (Post 13410826)
No. I was referring to an allegation that someone is pretending. But I was asked who is pretending. For me to think someone is pretending, I would have to agree with the allegation. And I don't.

Irrelevant comments are irrelevant regardless of how many words you add to them. This game is over, Bob, Tata till next time

RecoveringYuppy 27th February 2021 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve (Post 13410807)
Who, in wareyin's post, is pretending?

Trans people. MTG says they are just pretending. wareyin is talking about MTG's statements.

BobTheCoward 27th February 2021 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy (Post 13410835)
Trans people. MTG says they are just pretending.

I am not required to think an allegation is true to discuss an allegation.

RecoveringYuppy 27th February 2021 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward (Post 13410837)
I am not required to think an allegation is true to discuss an allegation.

I didn't say you were.

BobTheCoward 27th February 2021 09:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy (Post 13410838)
I didn't say you were.

I replied to the wrong post

wareyin 27th February 2021 09:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Distracted1 (Post 13410804)
"pretending" is a reasonable interpretation of a man/woman behaving in such a way as to attempt to give the impression that they are a gender other than what they are.

"refusing" is also a reasonable description of someone insisting that they are a gender different from what they are.

These are not hateful, nor discriminotory descriptors. They represent an outlook that is opposed to the agenda pushed by many trans-folk, but they are hardly outside of mainstream ideology. One could argue that calling them "hateful" or "vile" is such a transparent attempt to mischaracterize the sentiments based upon an agenda, that those arguments are just as kooky as a "jewish space laser"

You may think you're helping your case by jumping back and forth here, or maybe you just can't keep track of the conversation. A clue to what a statement is in response to is the quoted post included in that post, if that helps.

You denied that Greene was denying the existence of trans people. She literally said they're pretending. If they are pretending to be trans then they don't exist as trans.

Your claim was false. You thinking her claim is reasonable doesn't change what she claimed.

BobTheCoward 27th February 2021 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wareyin (Post 13410848)
You may think you're helping your case by jumping back and forth here, or maybe you just can't keep track of the conversation. A clue to what a statement is in response to is the quoted post included in that post, if that helps.

You denied that Greene was denying the existence of trans people. She literally said they're pretending. If they are pretending to be trans then they don't exist as trans.

Your claim was false. You thinking her claim is reasonable doesn't change what she claimed.

But they still exist.

Distracted1 27th February 2021 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wareyin (Post 13410848)
You may think you're helping your case by jumping back and forth here, or maybe you just can't keep track of the conversation. A clue to what a statement is in response to is the quoted post included in that post, if that helps.

You denied that Greene was denying the existence of trans people. She literally said they're pretending. If they are pretending to be trans then they don't exist as trans.

Your claim was false. You thinking her claim is reasonable doesn't change what she claimed.

Her claim is that they are pretending to be a particular gender. Not that they are pretending to be Trans.

MRC_Hans 27th February 2021 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Distracted1 (Post 13410860)
Her claim is that they are pretending to be a particular gender. Not that they are pretending to be Trans.

Well, I'll be charitable and assume you really don't know how these people feel.

Hans

Distracted1 27th February 2021 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MRC_Hans (Post 13410865)
Well, I'll be charitable and assume you really don't know how these people feel.

Hans

reality is indifferent to how anyone feels.

grunion 27th February 2021 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Distracted1 (Post 13410871)
reality is indifferent to how anyone feels.

Have you ever felt hungry, tired, wet or cold? Were these just delusions?

Distracted1 27th February 2021 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grunion (Post 13410877)
Have you ever felt hungry, tired, wet or cold? Were these just delusions?

If during those times I was objectively hungry, tired, Cold, or wet- they were not.

If I felt wet while not being wet- I was experiencing a break with reality.
If I insist you treat me as if I am wet during that period of time, I am making an unreasonable demand upon you, one which you are under no obligation to honor.

jimbob 27th February 2021 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr. Keith (Post 13410294)
You simply aren't getting the point: a response in kind is possible, but I don't think she is capable of it.

I would respond in kind by posting a rainbow flag, because I have LGBTQ loved ones I care about.

I could post a BLM flag because I have been inspired by what their movement has done in a short time.

I could post a vet flag because I have loved ones who are vets who I think do not get treated as well as they should.

Or is your contention that I need to find a response in kind that fits with MTG's message of bigotry and exclusion? Sorry, not happening.

I know - one could respond in kind with a Confederate flag, because one has loved ones who are traitors and thinks they get a bad reputation.

MRC_Hans 27th February 2021 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Distracted1 (Post 13410871)
reality is indifferent to how anyone feels.

You are not indifferent to how you feel. Even about reality.

Hans

wareyin 27th February 2021 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Distracted1 (Post 13410878)
If during those times I was objectively hungry, tired, Cold, or wet- they were not.

If I felt wet while not being wet- I was experiencing a break with reality.
If I insist you treat me as if I am wet during that period of time, I am making an unreasonable demand upon you, one which you are under no obligation to honor.

Objectively hungry? Do you think through what you're typing out at all, or just randomly combine words and hope they make sense? I'd ask you how you verify someone is hungry objectively, but I think we'd just get some bigoted justification that takes us down another tangent. It's really the only way one can support MTG, by trying to "hey look a squirrel" any discussion.

newyorkguy 27th February 2021 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr. Keith (Post 13410294)
You simply aren't getting the point...

I think you could argue the point is to NOT get the point. If Greene was an otherwise reasonable and good-hearted person, I could buy the latest argument defending her, though without agreeing with it. Except Greene is a demagogue who likes to target people as a way of getting political support for herself. Get 'em angry and they'll remember my name. For instance her statement calling BLM a radical Marxist group. It's nonsensical but it works with people who despise BlackLivesMatter and for reasons other than economic theory.

Greene is someone who has suggested there is some international Jewish cabal that started the wildfires in California with a space laser. Seriously, in the 21st century someone is babbling nonsense like that?

She's not a good person, she's a conspiracy-spouting troublemaker, period. End-of-story. ;)

Minoosh 27th February 2021 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward (Post 13410809)
I don't think anyone is pretending.

If they're not pretending, they are genuinely transgender. I suppose they could all be pretending just to troll Marjorie Taylor Greeene and her ilk, but I don't think so.

Imagine a teenager telling a parent they're gay. The parent says, "You're not gay." I bet you this has happened in thousands of households. "You're not gay, you just haven't met the right girl." "You're not gay. You could be straight anytime you decided to be it's just a choice." "You're not gay, you're pretending to be to antagonize your parents."

It is taking something critical to a person's identity and telling them it is make believe. I don't think you're doing that, but MTG is.

I use gay because people know better now, gay people still get the above reaction sometime but for the most part people are better informed. Acknowledging there really are transgender people is a step in the right direction. I don't know how to resolve some of the social issues transgenderism raises but I don't think people are pretending about how they feel.

There's something really obnoxious about being told how you feel or don't feel.

Distracted1 27th February 2021 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minoosh (Post 13410944)
If they're not pretending, they are genuinely transgender. I suppose they could all be pretending just to troll Marjorie Taylor Greeene and her ilk, but I don't think so.

Imagine a teenager telling a parent they're gay. The parent says, "You're not gay." I bet you this has happened in thousands of households. "You're not gay, you just haven't met the right girl." "You're not gay. You could be straight anytime you decided to be it's just a choice." "You're not gay, you're pretending to be to antagonize your parents."

It is are taking something critical to a person's identity and telling them it is make believe. I don't think you're doing that, but MTG is.

I use gay because people know better now, gay people still get the above reaction sometime but for the most part people are better informed. Acknowledging there really are transgender people is a step in the right direction. I don't know how to resolve some of the social issues transgenderism raises but I don't think people are pretending about how they feel.

There's something really obnoxious about being told how you feel or don't feel.

Your argument only works if one accepts that a trans-gender person actually is the gender they feel themselves to be.

Greene is not claiming that trans people do not exist. She is pointing out that they are not the gender they may demand to be considered. That is not denial of rights or privileges. She has proposed no penalties for believing oneself to be a gender other than what they are, nor has she proposed any for pretending to be a gender that one is not.

What she has chosen to highlight is that it is a violation of other peoples' rights and privileges to deny them the freedom to view reality independent of the "feelings" of someone else. A woman is an adult, human, female. A man does not become a woman by "feeling" like one. They become "a man who feels like a woman" a "trans-woman"

There is an entire thread (a very, very long and in depth one) regarding this issue. If you wish to go there, that is probably the place for discussing the basis of the claims.

Minoosh 27th February 2021 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Distracted1 (Post 13410953)
Your argument only works if one accepts that a trans-gender person actually is the gender they feel themselves to be.

You are conflating sex and gender and the meanings of these are diverging quite a bit through usage, often with the support of science.

As I think newyorkguy pointed out, if MTG had any reputation beyond being a vile, lying, gun-fetishist QAnon-babbling groper of imagined and probably real genitals, I might give her the benefit of the doubt. But no. She is rank through and through and her positions are cynically calculated to win the affection of the "Trump was robbed" liars promoting insurrection against the United States and absolutely *pining* for a Christian theocracy. I've stopped believing in any harmless interpretations of that. I have no compunction about believing her bigoted through and through. She is acting maliciously.

I notice the flag-flying specifies not "over" an embassy post so draping it from a window below the U.S. flag should be OK.

smartcooky 27th February 2021 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Distracted1 (Post 13410953)
Greene is not claiming that trans people do not exist.

Except for the fact that she is claiming that there are only two genders, so that is exactly what she is doing - she is saying if you are male by sex, you MUST BE male by gender, i.e. of you are male by sex, you CANNOT be female by gender, therefore you are wrong, therefore your kind don't exist.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Distracted1 (Post 13410953)
She is pointing out that they are not the gender they may demand to be considered.

Except for the fact that this is untrue.

Again, it bears repeating - sex and gender are not the same thing. The science of psychology is very clear on this. Feeling that your sex and your gender do not match is a real thing, it actually happens to people, and it is NOT, repeat NOT a choice they get to make.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Distracted1 (Post 13410953)
That is not denial of rights or privileges.

Except for the fact that for people to be treated as equals and not be discriminated against for characteristics they have no choice over, is a fundamental right. Black people don't choose to be black, gay people don't choose to be gay and transgender people don't choose to be transgender.

Advocating against that, which is what Greene has done, is advocating for a denial of rights.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Distracted1 (Post 13410953)
She has proposed no penalties for believing oneself to be a gender other than what they are, nor has she proposed any for pretending to be a gender that one is not.

Discrimination is a penalty. Opposing legislation to grant rights to people who suffer discrimination is in effect, allowing a penalty to continue to be imposed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Distracted1 (Post 13410953)
What she has chosen to highlight is that it is a violation of other peoples' rights and privileges to deny them the freedom to view reality independent of the "feelings" of someone else. A woman is an adult, human, female. A man does not become a woman by "feeling" like one. They become "a man who feels like a woman" a "trans-woman"

What a load of supercilious, ill-informed horse cock.

Transgender people, and their existence has ZERO EFFECT on people who are not transgender. It does not effect their rights or privileges; it does not change anything about how they go about their daily lives. But the discrimination YOU are advocating for (and lets be blunt, you are at the very lease a supporter of the homophobic, anti-LGBTQ crowd or you wouldn't be arguing on Greene's side of the debate) has a very real, very damaging psychological and emotional impact on people with gender identity issues.

This was Green's clear intent with her sign, to cause emotional hurt and distress to Newman and her daughter.

Shalamar 27th February 2021 12:34 PM

I propose that Marjorie Taylor Greene is not in fact a woman, and is in fact a form of ambulatory slime, along with those who agree with her.

Steve 27th February 2021 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shalamar (Post 13410991)
I propose that Marjorie Taylor Greene is not in fact a woman, and is in fact a form of ambulatory slime, along with those who agree with her.

Seems so, She is merely pretending to be something other than slime. No evidence has been offered that contradicts this so you are likely correct.

Norman Alexander 27th February 2021 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smartcooky (Post 13410980)
This was Green's clear intent with her sign, to cause emotional hurt and distress to Newman and her daughter.

Which is why I advocate for altering it with a sharpie. That is, hit her sign with graffiti, constantly and publicly, and put the results on Facebook. She can bitch and moan about "denying freedom of speech" and such-like all she wants. Too bad; she passed on any sense of decency and respect ages ago. Tag her up!

Minoosh 27th February 2021 03:05 PM

I wonder if she's boffed Trump yet.

newyorkguy 27th February 2021 03:46 PM

A different point of view by Utah's Republican governor Spencer Cox.
Quote:

"I think there’s still much that we can do to protect women’s sports and also, to send a message to trans kids that there’s a place for them, and that they belong," he said during a televised news conference Thursday. "And that’s really important to me that they know that...These kids are -- they’re just trying to stay alive," he said. FOX News link

BobTheCoward 27th February 2021 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smartcooky (Post 13410980)
Discrimination is a penalty. Opposing legislation to grant rights to people who suffer discrimination is in effect, allowing a penalty to continue to be imposed.

Discrimination by anyone other than the government is freedom of association. It isn't a penalty in your life that there are billions of people choosing not to interact with you.

Minoosh 28th February 2021 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by newyorkguy (Post 13411102)
A different point of view by Utah's Republican governor Spencer Cox.

That's nice to hear. It's a simple, empathetic response stripped of activist rhetoric pro or con. I wish more Republicans were like that.

dudalb 28th February 2021 04:45 PM

My ignore list just grew by another bigot.

Babbylonian 1st March 2021 09:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dudalb (Post 13411934)
My ignore list just grew by another bigot.

It's a pretty amazing argument. "How can MTG be a bigot if she's just saying things that I totally agree with?"

Yeah. Exactly.

smartcooky 1st March 2021 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norman Alexander (Post 13411021)
Which is why I advocate for altering it with a sharpie. That is, hit her sign with graffiti, constantly and publicly, and put the results on Facebook. She can bitch and moan about "denying freedom of speech" and such-like all she wants. Too bad; she passed on any sense of decency and respect ages ago. Tag her up!


Yup, if putting up that sign is MTG expressing her freedom of speech, then any sharpie graffiti would be the tagger expressing theirs.

Dr. Keith 1st March 2021 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Distracted1 (Post 13410346)
"Weird" is a grown person (of which I am assuming you are)who doesn't know what a "lie" is.

A misrepresentation?

Distracted1 1st March 2021 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr. Keith (Post 13412557)
A misrepresentation?

I would plea to "incomplete" representation.

Is "trust the science" really the part that has people upset?

Dr. Keith 1st March 2021 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Babbylonian (Post 13412382)
It's a pretty amazing argument. "How can MTG be a bigot if she's just saying things that I totally agree with?"

Yeah. Exactly.

Just catching up and you just saved me a lot of time.

Norman Alexander 1st March 2021 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smartcooky (Post 13412553)
Yup, if putting up that sign is MTG expressing her freedom of speech, then any sharpie graffiti would be the tagger expressing theirs.

It is a time-honoured method of counter-punching.

Dr. Keith 1st March 2021 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Distracted1 (Post 13412561)
I would plea to "incomplete" representation.

Is "trust the science" really the part that has people upset?

The whole thing is wrong. The entire message. The misrepresentation of science from a person who believes in Jewish Space Lasers starting fires is a part of that whole.


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