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-   -   When Does Religion Become Just Silly? (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=341273)

abaddon 27th January 2020 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue (Post 12968595)
Well I find solopsism, in any version, stupid.

Motion seconded. Solipsists still look both ways when crossing the street. I wonder why that is?

acbytesla 27th January 2020 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue (Post 12968595)
Well I find solopsism, in any version, stupid.

And much like the Watchmaker God or other God built out of Special Pleadings you'll never actually meet a solopsist outside a padded room.

I can entertain something on a purely intellectual level as much as the next person, but when something isn't just detached from the real world but purposely built to be detached from the real world, I really, really fail to see the point.

I'm with you on all of this Joe.

Yep, solopsism is a thought experiment at most.

But there are lots of people who believe in their own special pleadings god or the Watchmaker God. They are all aound us and not in a padded room. In fact, in the US they have us outnumbered.

acbytesla 27th January 2020 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by abaddon (Post 12968611)
Motion seconded. Solipsists still look both ways when crossing the street. I wonder why that is?

Yet, the movie The Matrix was still damn good.

Thor 2 27th January 2020 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets (Post 12967553)
The OP rails against the very notion of "a caring god, who takes great interest in our activities" and accuses those who believe it of "Intellectual Shame".


Tut tut, once again you misrepresent what I have said. :(

To quote Ame Perdue once again:

"But still I hear the Wrangling Sects proclaim
Their Paradises and their Seas of Flame,
Their Holy Ghosts and mystic Trinities.
With no degree of Intellectual Shame."

It is the beliefs in Paradises, Seas of Flame, Holy Ghosts, and Mystic Trinities that I, alongside Ame Perdue find intellectually shameful. The notion of a caring god, who takes great interest in our activities, just sort of leads into the other silly stuff. Some others here might find silliness in what I would just regard with incredulity however.

acbytesla 27th January 2020 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thor 2 (Post 12968643)
Tut tut, once again you misrepresent what I have said. :(

To quote Ame Perdue once again:

"But still I hear the Wrangling Sects proclaim
Their Paradises and their Seas of Flame,
Their Holy Ghosts and mystic Trinities.
With no degree of Intellectual Shame."

It is the beliefs in Paradises, Seas of Flame, Holy Ghosts, and Mystic Trinities that I, alongside Ame Perdue find intellectually shameful. The notion of a caring god, who takes great interest in our activities, just sort of leads into the other silly stuff. Some others here might find silliness in what I would just regard with incredulity however.

I don't understand what you mean by the highlighted sentence.

abaddon 27th January 2020 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by acbytesla (Post 12968614)
Yet, the movie The Matrix was still damn good.

Oh I enjoyed that. And the sequels. All one needs is to park one's brain in neutral. That is the nature of fantasy fiction. The notion that the human body can provide sufficient electric power for much of anything is nonsense. Still, it was a fun conceit. Suspension of disbelief is a prerequisite to be a fan of sci-fi or fantasy of any sort. Because it is not real. It merely needs to be briefly plausible.

And that is where religion fails. It is not even vaguely plausible.

Thor 2 27th January 2020 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by psionl0 (Post 12968305)
That silly nonsense has been totally demolished. I quoted all 3 religious texts of the Abrahamic God which all say, "God created the universe".

What translation are you referring to here?

My King James Version of the Bible talks of God creating Heaven and Earth and other script suggests that Heaven is the place God hangs out - when he is not hiding behind a burning bush or taking a stroll in the Garden of Eden that is.

God seemed to be ignorant about the size and nature of the heavens, as we have descriptions of stars falling to Earth in other scripture. :boggled:

Just thought I would straighten you out on that point psion. You seem to have your hands full fending off many others, who take issue with your somewhat vague idea of a godly entity.

abaddon 27th January 2020 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by acbytesla (Post 12968668)
I don't understand what you mean by the highlighted sentence.

A big spanky god that simultaneously loves us all but hates us all and we are all hellbound unless we grovel seems a tad unlikely, no?

Hellbound 27th January 2020 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by abaddon (Post 12968678)
A big spanky god that simultaneously loves us all but hates us all and we are all hellbound unless we grovel seems a tad unlikely, no?



I am the Everyman :)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

acbytesla 27th January 2020 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by abaddon (Post 12968669)
Oh I enjoyed that. And the sequels. All one needs is to park one's brain in neutral. That is the nature of fantasy fiction. The notion that the human body can provide sufficient electric power for much of anything is nonsense. Still, it was a fun conceit. Suspension of disbelief is a prerequisite to be a fan of sci-fi or fantasy of any sort. Because it is not real. It merely needs to be briefly plausible.

And that is where religion fails. It is not even vaguely plausible.

Yeah, the power principle certainly didn't work, but I was able to suspend disbelief on that. That is the issue with many movies. There usually is a plot hole or even a few. The question is can you ignore the plotholes or some stunt? I can think of a few movies lots of people liked that I hated because because the plotholes were too absurd for me.

The Bible is kind of like that. You have to suspend disbelief. They call that faith. And to them, that is a good thing.

Thor 2 27th January 2020 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by acbytesla (Post 12968668)
I don't understand what you mean by the highlighted sentence.


Well I think my incredulity does not necessarily mean I think that stuff is silly. That is a further step I think. Mind you the line is blurry at times. :)

The Mystic Trinity referred to by Perdue is about as silly as you can get, and the efforts of the church over the centuries to make it less comical, have lead to some extraordinary examples of verbal callisthenics.

catsmate 27th January 2020 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by psionl0 (Post 12961294)

An origin for the universe is a consequence of the big bang theory.

So we can add cosmology to the long list of things you either don't understand or distort to suit your opinions.

catsmate 27th January 2020 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darat (Post 12961693)
And of course psion10 has now moved onto the typical next stage, now talking about a god that no religion posits exists. In other words he is no longer actually talking about a god but a gobblduck.

It's like a history recap, wonder when we will get to the 20th century...

Sounds delicious.

acbytesla 27th January 2020 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by abaddon (Post 12968678)
A big spanky god that simultaneously loves us all but hates us all and we are all hellbound unless we grovel seems a tad unlikely, no?

Yeah, that is one of the plotholes. But if I had to pick the worst plotholes of the Bible, I'd have to go with that an all powerful, all knowing god not coming up with a better way to forgive man then raping some Jewish girl and coming to earth as his own son and be tortured to death and rising a day an a half later.

Seems a bit convoluted to me.

Darat 27th January 2020 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by abaddon (Post 12968611)
Motion seconded. Solipsists still look both ways when crossing the street. I wonder why that is?

In case she's changed her mind...

acbytesla 27th January 2020 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thor 2 (Post 12968709)
Well I think my incredulity does not necessarily mean I think that stuff is silly. That is a further step I think. Mind you the line is blurry at times. :)

The Mystic Trinity referred to by Perdue is about as silly as you can get, and the efforts of the church over the centuries to make it less comical, have lead to some extraordinary examples of verbal callisthenics.

You can blame Athanasius of Alexandria for all that. He's basically the father of Christian apologetics and the Trinity and if he didn't create the Nicene Creed, he inspired it.

psionl0 27th January 2020 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue (Post 12968310)
Okay. No less then 3 or 4 people are just not listening to you and mis-interpreting you all in the same way and it's totally not your fault.

It's not surprising that you all put up the same strawman argument. You are all feeding off each other.

Quote:

Originally Posted by acbytesla (Post 12968168)
No, your argument is that God created the Universe . . . .

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue (Post 12968396)
"But we can't know for sure, therefore maybe God" is not a strawman it's literally what you are saying.

Yep, totally the same argument. :rolleyes:

psionl0 27th January 2020 09:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darat (Post 12968543)
Please reread the posts that I demonstrated what I had claimed was true.

All you did was quote an opinion piece that basically said "if you change and rearrange the words in the Torah then it shows that the Torah doesn't say that God created the universe".

psionl0 27th January 2020 09:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thor 2 (Post 12968676)
What translation are you referring to here?

My King James Version of the Bible talks of God creating Heaven and Earth and other script suggests that Heaven is the place God hangs out - when he is not hiding behind a burning bush or taking a stroll in the Garden of Eden that is.

God seemed to be ignorant about the size and nature of the heavens, as we have descriptions of stars falling to Earth in other scripture. :boggled:

Just thought I would straighten you out on that point psion. You seem to have your hands full fending off many others, who take issue with your somewhat vague idea of a godly entity.

Welcome back to this thread. Please tell me what is wrong with the post of mine that dealt with this issue and I will either clarify it or concede that (according to the bible) God didn't create the universe after all.

Darat 28th January 2020 02:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by psionl0 (Post 12968997)
All you did was quote an opinion piece that basically said "if you change and rearrange the words in the Torah then it shows that the Torah doesn't say that God created the universe".

That is untrue.

You may not be aware of it but the Torah wasn't written in English, so any English version you have read is a translation, and it reads as if you are referring to a rather poor translation into English. Can you give me the source of the translation you are using?

The English translation I am using is the 2001*Richard Elliott Friedman*Commentary on the Torah.

JoeMorgue 28th January 2020 06:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by psionl0 (Post 12968994)
It's not surprising that you all put up the same strawman argument. You are all feeding off each other.



Yep, totally the same argument. :rolleyes:

And now we're getting closer to 15 posts in a row whining about "That's not my argument" instead of just clarifying your argument.

Here, since this is necessary, we'll break it down Barney style.

Me: "There is no God."
You: "You can't say that because of the possibility that God exists."

If that's a "strawman" then you tell me what your line that scene is.

Belz... 28th January 2020 06:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by psionl0 (Post 12966229)
What information do we have?

Plenty, actually. And on top of the stuff we do know, there are a number of good, informed guesses at how it went down, and the nature of the forces involved.

Now, by now you're thinking that we don't, however, have any sort of certainty, which is why I called them informed guesses, or hypotheses, if you will. But that's not the same thing as having no information, which was your claim.

Belz... 28th January 2020 06:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by psionl0 (Post 12966765)
Why would we prefer one explanation over another?

Body of work.

Quote:

You are again positing about what happened after the big bang. You can't theorize or describe a thing about what went on before that event.
If you knew much about physics, you know that there is no such thing as "before" the beginning of time.

Quote:

I am not arguing that God exists
You were asked if you believed in one. Do you?

Quote:

You can't draw conclusions based on a lack of knowledge.
True, but we have a LOT of knowledge, actually, which argue against the existence of gods.

JoeMorgue 28th January 2020 06:36 AM

We also know that "But Goddit!" has been the answer for every single unanswered question ever and has never once been right.

Why should "Goddit!" be an a potential answer we have to consider for whatever unaccounted for variable we're talking about now?

God wasn't behind the last 500 billion doors we opened. He's not gonna be behind the next one.

"The God of the Gaps" is an intellectual dead end, and not even a useful one.

Belz... 28th January 2020 06:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by psionl0 (Post 12968306)
I don't see the need to repeat myself yet again. You are not going to read what I write as long as there is a nice juicy strawman that you can deal with instead.

If not one or two or three but absolutely everyone in the thread "misunderstands" you, then maybe the issue is with you.

JoeMorgue 28th January 2020 06:47 AM

Man it's been a while since I had Jabba flashbacks this bad.

psionl0 28th January 2020 06:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darat (Post 12969127)
That is untrue.

You may not be aware of it but the Torah wasn't written in English, so any English version you have read is a translation, and it reads as if you are referring to a rather poor translation into English. Can you give me the source of the translation you are using?

The English translation I am using is the 2001*Richard Elliott Friedman*Commentary on the Torah.

No doubt, you could find "scholars" who could do the same linguistobatics on the bible and the quran and thus "prove" that nobody believes that God created the universe. Such people are a dime a dozen.

Do you really think that it is clever to argue that a god that doesn't exist rearranged rather than created the universe?

psionl0 28th January 2020 06:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Belz... (Post 12969248)
Plenty, actually. And on top of the stuff we do know, there are a number of good, informed guesses at how it went down, and the nature of the forces involved.

Now, by now you're thinking that we don't, however, have any sort of certainty, which is why I called them informed guesses, or hypotheses, if you will. But that's not the same thing as having no information, which was your claim.

That is totally vague and meaningless. You have no idea what preceded the big bang.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Belz... (Post 12969256)
If not one or two or three but absolutely everyone in the thread "misunderstands" you, then maybe the issue is with you.

No, it's the peanut gallery.

JoeMorgue 28th January 2020 07:00 AM

Ya know for someone who keeps shouting strawman when people just repeat your own arguments back to you, you aren't being very honest in how you represent other people's arguments.

Nobody is claiming that "God didn't create the universe" is a widespread or mainstream religious belief, particularly but not limited to the Abrahamic religions.

You trying to sneak in the "Watchmaker" God, that apologetic nonsense where God creates the universe and just... goes away is what people are calling you out on because that version is NOT a widespread or mainstream religious belief, it's only a theological and argumentative excuse.

You caterwauling "Are you saying Muslims/Jews/Christians don't say God created the universe over and over" as if that's the thing people have the problem with just makes you look dishonest and desperate.

JoeMorgue 28th January 2020 07:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by psionl0 (Post 12969274)
No, it's the peanut gallery.

You ever consider being a Trump speechwriter?

JoeMorgue 28th January 2020 07:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by psionl0 (Post 12969274)
That is totally vague and meaningless. You have no idea what preceded the big bang.

"Therefore, maybe God" is still not justified. And you're still screaming about "We don't know maybe God" is somehow a strawman of your position when it's all you keep saying over and over.

Belz... 28th January 2020 07:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by psionl0 (Post 12969274)
That is totally vague and meaningless.

I'm sorry, I thought you were aware of what we knew about this topic. Didn't you?

Quote:

You have no idea what preceded the big bang.
What part of "there can't be anything that precedes the beginning of time" has you confused, here?

And you're wrong. I have a pretty good idea of the mechanics involved.

Quote:

No, it's the peanut gallery.
What in the blazes are you babbling about? You think the lurkers secretly understand you?

JoeMorgue 28th January 2020 07:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Belz... (Post 12969309)
You think the lurkers secretly understand you?

I'm telling you man I haven't gotten Jabba flashblacks this bad in a minute.

psionl0 28th January 2020 08:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Belz... (Post 12969309)
What part of "there can't be anything that precedes the beginning of time" has you confused, here?

That sounds like a very authoritative statement you have made. However, it is your own authority. You probably don't even have a PhD in physics.

Darat 28th January 2020 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by psionl0 (Post 12969270)
No doubt, you could find "scholars" who could do the same linguistobatics on the bible and the quran and thus "prove" that nobody believes that God created the universe. Such people are a dime a dozen.



Do you really think that it is clever to argue that a god that doesn't exist rearranged rather than created the universe?

You seem to have very little understanding of how translations are done.

I refer you to a well sourced reference for why one of your claims is untrue for some followers of one of the Abrahamic religions and you reject it simply because it shows you were and are wrong about the various gods of those religions.

I don't think any definition from any religion I've ever heard about (for their god or gods) is a clever definition , whether that is a god such as Ganapati or Allah, they are all equally as silly when viewed from an objective viewpoint.

Again you seem very unaware of the myriad of gods that the religions claim exist.

And yes I find your personal definition of god, one that is unlike any god that I've ever heard a religion claim exists as equally silly as Ganapati or Jesus.

JoeMorgue 28th January 2020 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by psionl0 (Post 12969330)
That sounds like a very authoritative statement you have made. However, it is your own authority. You probably don't even have a PhD in physics.

"There's nothing North of the North Pole."
"Well that's a very authoritative statement you're making."

More and more I'm getting the impression that your reflexive anger is much more about people daring to tell you things then rather or not the thing in question is true or not.

We're dealing with a "How dare people tell me what to think!" persona.

psionl0 28th January 2020 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darat (Post 12969370)
I refer you to a well sourced reference for why one of your claims is untrue for some followers of one of the Abrahamic religions and you reject it simply because it shows you were and are wrong about the various gods of those religions.

I don't take your reference seriously because I have seem many of these "this is the true interpretation of <insert religious text>".

In any case, it doesn't support your assertion that a god that can create a universe is a unique definition of a god that only I make.

psionl0 28th January 2020 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue (Post 12969379)
"There's nothing North of the North Pole."
"Well that's a very authoritative statement you're making."

Assuming that the definition of "north" is not in dispute, that is an easily tested hypothesis.

OTOH "there is nothing before the beginning of time" is naive and untestable. It doesn't take much thought to realize that saying "the universe suddenly sprang into existence ex-nihilo" is going to create a lot of logical paradoxes (especially if you deny the existence of anything beyond the universe).

Belz... 28th January 2020 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by psionl0 (Post 12969330)
That sounds like a very authoritative statement you have made. However, it is your own authority.

Not authority. Knowledge. Something you deny exists.

Quote:

You probably don't even have a PhD in physics.
Neither do you, and that means none of us knows anything therefore God is a credible answer. Right? :rolleyes:

Belz... 28th January 2020 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by psionl0 (Post 12969423)
Assuming that the definition of "north" is not in dispute, that is an easily tested hypothesis.

OTOH "there is nothing before the beginning of time" is naive and untestable.

"Before" REQUIRES time. How can there be a "before" time?

Are you taking the piss, here?


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