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-   -   Thought Police in Britain? (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=334471)

Puppycow 27th January 2019 05:22 AM

Thought Police in Britain?
 
Just wondering what to make of this article from the BBC:

Man complains of 'Orwellian police' after tweet investigation

Quote:

"He said even though I had committed no crime he needed to check my thinking," said Mr Miller.
"We are heading absolutely towards some Orwellian state and the police are using 1984 as an operating manual and this frightens the life out of me."
The police have confirmed:
Quote:

In a statement, Humberside Police said: "We received reports of a number of transphobic comments being posted on social media.
"We take all reports of hate related incidents seriously. We will always investigate to determine if a hate crime or incident has been committed and we will then take proportionate action."

Nessie 27th January 2019 05:32 AM

This sounds like a police officer reacting to complaints and establishing if a crime had been committed, with an allegedly oddly phrased comment.

"An officer from Humberside Police interviewed Harry Miller by telephone after the force received complaints over his posts on Twitter...."He said even though I had committed no crime he needed to check my thinking," said Mr Miller."

Puppycow 27th January 2019 05:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nessie (Post 12579343)
This sounds like a police officer reacting to complaints and establishing if a crime had been committed, with an allegedly oddly phrased comment.

"An officer from Humberside Police interviewed Harry Miller by telephone after the force received complaints over his posts on Twitter...."He said even though I had committed no crime he needed to check my thinking," said Mr Miller."

Can't they just look at the tweet itself to determine if it constitutes a crime?

p0lka 27th January 2019 05:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Puppycow (Post 12579346)
Can't they just look at the tweet itself to determine if it constitutes a crime?

Maybe whether it's a crime or not, depends on intent?

Mongrel 27th January 2019 07:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Puppycow (Post 12579346)
Can't they just look at the tweet itself to determine if it constitutes a crime?

Couple of things spring to mind;

No rebuttal from the Police, it's all quotes from him. So we only have the word of the person who's being investigated about who said what.

They may be looking at his Twitter feed to see if this was a one off or a concerted, long-term issue. Is there a 'body of work'?

baron 27th January 2019 07:59 AM

The terms 'Orwellian' and '1984' are becoming less hyperbole and more descriptive by the day. This is just one example amongst many. It almost defies belief that such things occur in the UK, that police resource, which we are told is stretched due to austerity and budget cuts, can be dedicated to policing people's thought and opinions, still less that anybody of sound mind believes it's a good idea.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nessie (Post 12579343)
This sounds like a police officer reacting to complaints and establishing if a crime had been committed, with an allegedly oddly phrased comment.

"An officer from Humberside Police interviewed Harry Miller by telephone after the force received complaints over his posts on Twitter...."He said even though I had committed no crime he needed to check my thinking," said Mr Miller."

Not at all. He is reacting according to the law, in the way all police officers are instructed to react. Police are mandated to record non-crimes as hate incidents. The most incredible part is that a hate incident is defined subjectively by the person reporting it. In other words, literally anything that is claimed to be a hate incident is a hate incident and must be recorded as such by the police.

In this case, the guy in question has been recorded on a police database for 'liking' an innocuous poem on Twitter. The context will be recorded as expressing bigotry or hatred against the LGBT community. If he ever takes up a job that requires a full criminal records disclosure, this will be cited on the report.

It's essentially thought crime, nothing less.

BobTheCoward 27th January 2019 08:41 AM

If he has this phobia, wouldn't he have mental health protections that would prevent groups such as companies from hiring him?

RolandRat 27th January 2019 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by baron (Post 12579414)
TThis is just one example amongst many. It's essentially thought crime, nothing less.

It isn't thought crime at all. This is an example of nothing.

baron 27th January 2019 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RolandRat (Post 12579454)
It isn't thought crime at all. This is an example of nothing.

It has to be an example of something, by definition. Nothing is an example of nothing, everything else is an example of something. What's it an example of?

baron 27th January 2019 09:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward (Post 12579441)
If he has this phobia, wouldn't he have mental health protections that would prevent groups such as companies from hiring him?

Could you write something else, please.

RolandRat 27th January 2019 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by baron (Post 12579456)
It has to be an example of something, by definition. Nothing is an example of nothing, everything else is an example of something. What's it an example of?

Ok fair enough. It's an example of one guy whining and telling uncorroborated stories. How's that?

BobTheCoward 27th January 2019 09:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by baron (Post 12579458)
Could you write something else, please.

The police said they investigate transphobic comments. Phobias are a mental health disability, right?

Thermal 27th January 2019 09:27 AM

British police don't have the authority to report that no instance of criminal/hate instance was found after investigation, like a false alarm option? If not, it seems to be a system vulnerable to abuse and harassment.

If Miller, the former police officer, didn't indicate violence or other intent to break the law, it does seem to be thoughtcrime investigation. This bodes very ill

baron 27th January 2019 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RolandRat (Post 12579460)
Ok fair enough. It's an example of one guy whining and telling uncorroborated stories. How's that?

It's a load of rubbish. But thanks anyway.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thermal (Post 12579464)
British police don't have the authority to report that no instance of criminal/hate instance was found after investigation, like a false alarm option? If not, it seems to be a system vulnerable to abuse and harassment.

No, you don't get it (and there's no shame in that, it's verging on incredible). There is no false alarm in UK law when it comes to 'hate' incidents. Broadly speaking, what happens is this:

* A reports B to the police as having indulged in 'hate speech', or committed a 'hateful' action, or something similar.

* The police formally record the reported event as a hate incident, as defined by A and A alone.

* The police investigate the hate incident.

* If they find no criminality has occurred the hate incident remains on file against B, as would a criminal allegation, but the investigation is closed.

* If they suspect criminality then there is further investigation, and B may be charged with a hate crime, and legal proceedings follow.

The pertinent point is that it is the person reporting the crime, not the police, who define whether the occurrence is motivated by hate. If they believe it is, then it is formally recorded on the police database as such.

It is thought crime.

Diablo 27th January 2019 10:46 AM

The OP refers to the thought police, but this is a specific complaint about something that was written. Either the police quote was unfortunate or it was msiquoted, either way irrelevant.

RolandRat 27th January 2019 12:02 PM

"An officer from Humberside Police interviewed Harry Miller by telephone after the force received complaints over his posts on Twitter.

One tweet questioned whether transgender women were real women."

They received complaints, they investigated. Not thought crime.

Elagabalus 27th January 2019 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RolandRat (Post 12579598)
"An officer from Humberside Police interviewed Harry Miller by telephone after the force received complaints over his posts on Twitter...

One should never use "the force" to receive complaints. The force is strictly for emergency call backs, pings and moving objects. The force is too busy moving through everyone to listen to complaints. :boxedin:

baron 27th January 2019 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diablo (Post 12579536)
The OP refers to the thought police, but this is a specific complaint about something that was written. Either the police quote was unfortunate or it was msiquoted, either way irrelevant.

Or not.

Quote:

He added: The cop told me that he needed to speak with me because, even though Id committed no crime whatsoever, he needed (and I quote) to check my thinking! Seriously. Honestly.

baron 27th January 2019 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RolandRat (Post 12579598)
"An officer from Humberside Police interviewed Harry Miller by telephone after the force received complaints over his posts on Twitter.

One tweet questioned whether transgender women were real women."

They received complaints, they investigated. Not thought crime.

I'm glad I'm not writing my posts for nothing.

Archie Gemmill Goal 27th January 2019 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Puppycow (Post 12579337)
Just wondering what to make of this article from the BBC:

Man complains of 'Orwellian police' after tweet investigation


The police have confirmed:

Someone complained to the police. The police called him to let him know someone complained and find out if a crime has been committed and probably to let him know that his behaviour has been noted.

Basically if someone complains about you then you can expect a call from the police regardless of whether you have committed a crime or not.

p0lka 27th January 2019 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by baron (Post 12579414)
The terms 'Orwellian' and '1984' are becoming less hyperbole and more descriptive by the day. This is just one example amongst many. It almost defies belief that such things occur in the UK, that police resource, which we are told is stretched due to austerity and budget cuts, can be dedicated to policing people's thought and opinions, still less that anybody of sound mind believes it's a good idea.
-snip-

RE: the highlighted, maybe it's the very lack of resources that causes the police to do their policing by remote means where possible?

It costs money every time the police have to physically turn up anywhere.

baron 27th January 2019 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal (Post 12579638)
Someone complained to the police. The police called him to let him know someone complained and find out if a crime has been committed and probably to let him know that his behaviour has been noted.

Basically if someone complains about you then you can expect a call from the police regardless of whether you have committed a crime or not.

Really? So if I complain to the police about your false assessment of what went on in the OP, and that you failed to read my posts, they'll ring you up? Might be worth a shot.

Archie Gemmill Goal 27th January 2019 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by p0lka (Post 12579639)
RE: the highlighted, maybe it's the very lack of resources that causes the police to do their policing by remote means where possible?

It costs money every time the police have to physically turn up anywhere.

It's not even worth commenting. The gammon think that the police should only be spending their time hunting paedos and battering brown folk.

baron 27th January 2019 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by p0lka (Post 12579639)
RE: the highlighted, maybe it's the very lack of resources that causes the police to do their policing by remote means where possible?

It costs money every time the police have to physically turn up anywhere.

It's not policing, that's the point. Police should investigate crime, and prevent crime where necessary. They shouldn't be farting around ringing up people who have been reported to them by those who can't bear to see someone expressing a different opinion, and they certainly shouldn't then formally report the event as a hate incident.

baron 27th January 2019 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal (Post 12579647)
It's not even worth commenting. The gammon think that the police should only be spending their time hunting paedos and battering brown folk.

Oop, nuttery and racism in once sentence, bravo!

Information Analyst 27th January 2019 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RolandRat (Post 12579460)
Ok fair enough. It's an example of one guy whining and telling uncorroborated stories. How's that?

Sounds about right.

Information Analyst 27th January 2019 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by baron (Post 12579651)
It's not policing, that's the point. Police should investigate crime, and prevent crime where necessary.

You need to think about that one a bit more than you seem to be.

baron 27th January 2019 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Information Analyst (Post 12579716)
You need to think about that one a bit more than you seem to be.

Whenever you don't have an argument, try and be clever. Never fails.

Skeptic Ginger 27th January 2019 02:59 PM

The article wasn't very clear about what all the Tweets were or if it was a single comment about transgender women.

But we are always asking after the fact of a mass killing or other political or hate crimes and asking why no one looked at the perp when he was spouting all kinds of hate on the Net.

p0lka 27th January 2019 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by baron (Post 12579651)
It's not policing, that's the point. Police should investigate crime, and prevent crime where necessary. They shouldn't be farting around ringing up people who have been reported to them by those who can't bear to see someone expressing a different opinion, and they certainly shouldn't then formally report the event as a hate incident.

Yeah, but the police did sign up to the whole keeping the peace thing.

catsmate 27th January 2019 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by baron (Post 12579651)
Police should investigate crime, and prevent crime where necessary.

Exactly.

Puppycow 27th January 2019 03:22 PM

So apparently this was recorded by the police as a "hate incident"?

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/la...nd-hate-crime/

Quote:

The police and Crown Prosecution Service have agreed a common definition of hate incidents.

They say something is a hate incident if the victim or anyone else think it was motivated by hostility or prejudice based on one of the following things:

disability
race
religion
transgender identity
sexual orientation.
This means that if you believe something is a hate incident it should be recorded as such by the person you are reporting it to. All police forces record hate incidents based on these five personal characteristics.
Does this mean that this man is now in a police database as having committed a "hate incident"? Could it mean that he might have trouble finding work in the future because of it? What is the purpose of this information anyway?

baron 27th January 2019 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Puppycow (Post 12579771)
Does this mean that this man is now in a police database as having committed a "hate incident"? Could it mean that he might have trouble finding work in the future because of it?

Yes and yes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Puppycow (Post 12579771)
What is the purpose of this information anyway?

An authoritarian regime requires information, the more the better.

dudalb 27th January 2019 04:28 PM

I despise Bigotry in all forms, but an not so sure that making a bigoted statement should be a hate crime in and of itself.

lionking 27th January 2019 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal (Post 12579638)
Someone complained to the police. The police called him to let him know someone complained and find out if a crime has been committed and probably to let him know that his behaviour has been noted.

Basically if someone complains about you then you can expect a call from the police regardless of whether you have committed a crime or not.

I have real problems with this approach to policing. Where is it written that police have to react to each and every complaint? There is police discretion in Australia and Im certain everywhere else. The police, on taking the call should have looked at the tweet and did nothing.

theprestige 27th January 2019 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger (Post 12579751)
The article wasn't very clear about what all the Tweets were or if it was a single comment about transgender women.

But we are always asking after the fact of a mass killing or other political or hate crimes and asking why no one looked at the perp when he was spouting all kinds of hate on the Net.

Have you ever considered reporting a member of this forum to the police for preemptive investigation, on account of them spouting all kinds of hate on the Net?

Skeptic Ginger 27th January 2019 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dudalb (Post 12579852)
I despise Bigotry in all forms, but an not so sure that making a bigoted statement should be a hate crime in and of itself.

But they did not charge him, did they? Only investigated after complaints.

lionking 27th January 2019 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger (Post 12579912)
But they did not charge him, did they? Only investigated after complaints.

And left him (according to baron, who I am not doubting) with a police record. That cannot be justified.

Skeptic Ginger 27th January 2019 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lionking (Post 12579919)
And left him (according to baron, who I am not doubting) with a police record. That cannot be justified.

How is such a record different than the Tweet he himself made a public record of?

applecorped 27th January 2019 05:52 PM

Pre-crime units are being formed all around the country


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