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-   -   Having a stroke while black (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=354788)

Dr. Keith 15th October 2021 08:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warp12 (Post 13630137)
I don't have to make up any fictional stories in order to state that there is no evidence of racism here. If you find some evidence (not conjecture), please provide it. Otherwise, you have zilch to make such a claim.

Now, on the subject of "incompetence", that is a different matter.

You are confused. I’m not asking you to fantasize. I’m asking what evidence of racism would look like to you. In other words, what would it look like if they were racist?

Hint: I am asking about your definitions of racism and evidence of racism and how they would apply to a case like this. In a few posts I will point out that based on your definitions (which I expect will exclude things that most people would view as evidence of racism) there is no case in the year 2021 that you would ever consider racist. It’s not a novel approach, but it could be enlightening for the group if you are willing to engage.

Dr. Keith 15th October 2021 08:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thermal (Post 13630149)
Historically, the cops wouldn't take him to the ER at all. Give him the Rodney King treatment on the side of the road and take him to a holding cell instead of a hospital. Tase him, claiming he took a run at the cops. Clean out his wallet and leave a pile of citations on the dashboard for illegal parking, etc. There's quite a staggering amount of options south of "take him to the ER for medical care, as callous as they were about it.

But as always, that's not what's going on here. What we have are two distinct elements: a story about a man who received horrifically negligent treatment at the hands of Boston PD and the hospital, and a separate and utterly gratuitous narrative that this shows racist motivation. Which element is more important to posters here? Well just look at the ******* thread title.

Its this half-assed performance piece of insisting that the actors are all racists that gets under the skin, for some of us. The discussion here should be more along the lines of "wtf is wrong with these cops? More importantly, etc is going on with the attendant physicians and nurses in that ER?"

So someone says it's racism, nodding and gazing at the horizon. "Any evidence of that?" queries another. "You're a racist!" comes the mindless retort.

And round and round we go in today's episode of White Performative Allies Calling Other White People Racists and Patting Themselves on the Back.

So, to be racist we need lynching or the full Rodney King?

Just trying to get somewhere on this.

Thermal 15th October 2021 08:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr. Keith (Post 13630151)
So, to be racist we need lynching or the full Rodney King?

Just trying to get somewhere on this.

Of course not. Did I say those were minimum requirements? You asked what a racist might do.

But as always, that's not the question. The question is "what is the evidence of racism as the motivator?" The bad guy being white and the victim being black doesn't cut it. A lot of white folk are equal opportunity douchebags.

No more bobbing and weaving for yet another thread: what is the evidence that racism motivated the mistreatment?

plague311 15th October 2021 08:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thermal (Post 13630149)
Historically, the cops wouldn't take him to the ER at all.

They didn't until they literally had to because he was making a mess by throwing up in the jail. For 5 hours they didn't take him to the hospital, it took him bashing his head against the wall when he passed out standing up while trying to take a piss, and then throwing up to get them to take him. They didn't even take him after he bashed his head right away! That's what the cops literally got in trouble for, the only thing they got in trouble for actually.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thermal (Post 13630149)
Give him the Rodney King treatment on the side of the road and take him to a holding cell instead of a hospital.

Sans the beating on the side of the road (He was already passed out, what would a beating do), you described what they literally did. They took him to a holding cell instead of a hospital. Hell, they didn't even take him to detox which is where you take a drunk that hasn't broken the law. You're 2 for 2 here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thermal (Post 13630149)
So someone says it's racism, nodding and gazing at the horizon. "Any evidence of that?" queries another. "You're a racist!" comes the mindless retort.

Of course, this never happened at all, but lets not ruin "Thermal's fan fiction hour".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thermal (Post 13630149)
And round and round we go in today's episode of White Performative Allies Calling Other White People Racists and Patting Themselves on the Back.

And another thing that never happened.

So we've got you saying "this is what it would take to be racist", boxes which we clearly see the cops checked, and then some made up stuff.

Great.

Dave Rogers 15th October 2021 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warp12 (Post 13630145)
The burden of proof is on the accuser.

Except when accusing a black man of being a drug dealer, right?

Dave

Warp12 15th October 2021 08:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Rogers (Post 13630167)
Except when accusing a black man of being a drug dealer, right?

Dave

You have not drawn a valid comparison, and I am not going to derail this thread in order to explain why. It is covered extensively in the thread you are referencing.

plague311 15th October 2021 08:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warp12 (Post 13630175)
You have not drawn a valid comparison, and I am not going to derail this thread in order to explain why. It is covered extensively in the thread you are referencing.

Isn't that convenient?

Dr. Keith 15th October 2021 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Rogers (Post 13630167)
Except when accusing a black man of being a drug dealer, right?

Dave

No need to be so wordy.

Dr. Keith 15th October 2021 08:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thermal (Post 13630159)
Of course not. Did I say those were minimum requirements? You asked what a racist might do.

But as always, that's not the question. The question is "what is the evidence of racism as the motivator?" The bad guy being white and the victim being black doesn't cut it. A lot of white folk are equal opportunity douchebags.

No more bobbing and weaving for yet another thread: what is the evidence that racism motivated the mistreatment?

Would it help if I wasted my time putting together statistics that show that cops in this department just happen to be negligent towards blacks in their community? I suspect not. I suspect that would be evidence of systemic racism but would not lend any credence to the idea that this incident was racist.

If I pulled data that showed police in this department disproportionately ignore proper procedure while dealing with their citizens of color would that be evidence that this incident has some racist component. I expect not.

I expect that even if the only people ever arrested in the jurisdiction were black it wouldn’t be evidence that this incident in particular has an element of racism to it.

I expect that even if the officers used racist language that wouldn’t be evidence that racism drove their decisions or their penchant for negligence while dealing with this quite sober man.

That is why I ask. I’d rather you spell out where that bar is so that I can adjust my expectations.

Dave Rogers 15th October 2021 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warp12 (Post 13630175)
You have not drawn a valid comparison, and I am not going to derail this thread in order to explain why. It is covered extensively in the thread you are referencing.

Yes, it's important to consider circumstantial evidence that a man who was blatantly brutalised by police has a history of being suspected by the police of being a drug dealer and was behaving in ways that drug dealers behave, but it's vitally important not to consider circumstantial evidence that the police have a history of actual racist behaviour and were behaving in ways that racists behave.

Dave

Warp12 15th October 2021 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Rogers (Post 13630190)
Yes, it's important to consider circumstantial evidence that a man who was blatantly brutalised by police has a history of being suspected by the police of being a drug dealer and was behaving in ways that drug dealers behave, but it's vitally important not to consider circumstantial evidence that the police have a history of actual racist behaviour and were behaving in ways that racists behave.

Dave

So far, they have only been displayed to have behaved in ways that the incompetent behave. The rest is part of a "racism by default" argument that is being used to target the individuals involved in this case.

This is considerably different than being suspicious of someone who has history of drug and weapons violations, who owns and was coming from a suspected drug house, and has $22k in cash on the floorboard of their car.

Anyway, if you come up with some actual evidence of racism in this case, be sure to post it. If there is, that would be a productive addition to the discussion. :thumbsup:

Dr. Keith 15th October 2021 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warp12 (Post 13630196)
So far, they have only been displayed to have behaved in ways that the incompetent behave. The rest is part of a "racism by default" argument that is being used to target the individuals involved in this case.

This is considerably different than being suspicious of someone who has history of drug and weapons violations, who owns and was coming from a suspected drug house, and has $22k in cash on the floorboard of their car.

Anyway, if you come up with some actual evidence of racism in this case, be sure to post it. If there is, that would be a productive addition to the discussion. :thumbsup:

Your tag says your location is USA, but it seems you are unfamiliar with the city of Boston. How much catchup are we going to need here?

plague311 15th October 2021 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warp12 (Post 13630196)
So far, they have only been displayed to have behaved in ways that the incompetent behave. The rest is part of a "racism by default" argument that is being used to target the individuals involved in this case.

This is considerably different than being suspicious of someone who has history of drug and weapons violations, who owns and was coming from a suspected drug house, and has $22k in cash on the floorboard of their car.

Anyway, if you come up with some actual evidence of racism in this case, be sure to post it. If there is, that would be a productive addition to the discussion. :thumbsup:

In your post, you're using the individual's past. Surely you would take the history of the Boston Police Department into consideration then?

Thermal 15th October 2021 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr. Keith (Post 13630189)
Would it help if I wasted my time putting together statistics that show that cops in this department just happen to be negligent towards blacks in their community? I suspect not. I suspect that would be evidence of systemic racism but would not lend any credence to the idea that this incident was racist.

If I pulled data that showed police in this department disproportionately ignore proper procedure while dealing with their citizens of color would that be evidence that this incident has some racist component. I expect not.

I expect that even if the only people ever arrested in the jurisdiction were black it wouldn’t be evidence that this incident in particular has an element of racism to it.

I expect that even if the officers used racist language that wouldn’t be evidence that racism drove their decisions or their penchant for negligence while dealing with this quite sober man.

That is why I ask. I’d rather you spell out where that bar is so that I can adjust my expectations.

By your reasoning, we can show statistically that white people can be shown to abuse black people with racist motivations for centuries, right up to the current day.

Therefore, we can say that you personally (making a gratuitous leap from statistical generalities to a specific individual) are without question a racist, should you have a negative interaction with a black dude, regardless of the specifics.

That is quite literally the quandary. I totally get that it is reasonable to say BPD has a history of its officers demonstrating racist behavior. And that's perfectly appropriate to say in the abstract. But that quantum leap in applying it to specific individuals is unwarranted, sans a bit of evidence. So high a standard? Really?

Warp12 15th October 2021 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by plague311 (Post 13630208)
In your post, you're using the individual's past. Surely you would take the history of the Boston Police Department into consideration then?

Now we are on to something. :thumbsup:

Dave Rogers 15th October 2021 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warp12 (Post 13630196)
So far, they have only been displayed to have behaved in ways that the incompetent behave.

Locking up black people who've committed no crime and denying them timely medical treatment isn't something that racists do?

Quote:

This is considerably different than being suspicious of someone who has history of drug and weapons violations, who owns and was coming from a suspected drug house, and has $22k in cash on the floorboard of their car.
History of being acquitted on charges of drug and weapons violations, wasn't it? Presumption of innocence and all that.

But you're right, the two cases are different. We have, in one case, mere suspicion, and in the other, actual history. I'm struggling to see why suspicion trumps history.

Dave

Thermal 15th October 2021 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Rogers (Post 13630216)
Locking up black people who've committed no crime and denying them timely medical treatment isn't something that racists do?



History of being acquitted on charges of drug and weapons violations, wasn't it? Presumption of innocence and all that.

But you're right, the two cases are different. We have, in one case, mere suspicion, and in the other, actual history. I'm struggling to see why suspicion trumps history.

Dave

These officers have a racist history? Please share.

Or do you mean the BPD has a history, and of course all its members past, present and future unwaveringly agree to continue the policy?

White people enslaved black people. That is "actual history". You're white, right? Hmmm...

plague311 15th October 2021 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thermal (Post 13630297)
These officers have a racist history? Please share.

Or do you mean the BPD has a history, and of course all its members past, present and future unwaveringly agree to continue the policy?

White people enslaved black people. That is "actual history". You're white, right? Hmmm...

If the atmosphere is one that promotes or ignores racism then it's not hard to figure out that racism would still exist. Whether blatantly or passively.

Just like white people enslaved black people and we can still easily find thousands of instances of systemic racism in our society*. Is every white person racist? No, but if a few white people were treating a black person like ****, it wouldn't be out of the realm to think racism is playing a role.

ETA: *Used the wrong word

Warp12 15th October 2021 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by plague311 (Post 13630299)
No, but if a few white people were treating a black person like ****, it wouldn't be out of the realm to think racism is playing a role.

"Think racism is playing a role"? How about "suspect racism could be a factor"? Oh wait, we are in the "racism by default" forum.

You know how we determine the difference between a suspicion and a fact? Evidence, that's how. Now show me some evidence that indicates these individuals were guilty of racism.

If you provide such evidence, then the discussion will change.

plague311 15th October 2021 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warp12 (Post 13630309)
"Think racism is playing a role"? How about "suspect racism could be a factor"? Oh wait, we are in the "racism by default" forum.

I don't even know, or really care, what this means. If there's a difference between those two, it's a hair I don't care to split.

I've been openly saying it's either widespread racism or widespread negligence, either one is pathetic. I could be convinced of either. So saying "racism by default" right before you go on a tangent about "evidence" is ******* hilarious to me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warp12 (Post 13630309)
You know how we determine the difference between a suspicion and a fact? Evidence, that's how. Now show me some evidence that indicates these individuals were guilty of racism.

If you provide such evidence, then the discussion will change.

I have no want or desire to convince or provide you with a damn thing. Your agreement or disagreement with my personal outlook means nothing to me. At all.

If you don't see racism here, don't. I don't care.

Thermal 15th October 2021 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by plague311 (Post 13630299)
If the atmosphere is one that promotes or ignores racism then it's not hard to figure out that racism would still exist. Whether blatantly or passively.

Just like white people enslaved black people and we can still easily find thousands of instances of systemic racism in our society*. Is every white person racist? No, but if a few white people were treating a black person like ****, it wouldn't be out of the realm to think racism is playing a role.

ETA: *Used the wrong word

Agreed. The suspicion can be there, and rightly so.

Kind of like the paraplegic thread, since the cross-analogy keeps popping up. You can be reasonably suspicious. But "innocent till proven guilty", as the saying goes. And that goes for racist accusations, too.

That's really it in a nutshell. Presumption of innocence is suspended when we have a While Black thread. It's presumption of guilt.

plague311 15th October 2021 11:07 AM

My feeling about it is this guy certainly didn't seem to want the attention or notoriety. This is the first we're hearing about it and it happened in April of 2019.

Al didn't bring a lawsuit against the hospital, which means he couldn't have been overly motivated by money. I don't think it's hard to see he easily could have won some monetary compensation. Any hospital would settle out of court, imo. Instead they apologized and implemented changes.

Al didn't even bring a suit against the police department. His lawyer called, the police department investigated and offered Al money, which he took. If you ask me, $1.3m isn't even close to what he could have gotten had he actually made a fuss.

All of this is to say, we aren't looking at a man that's seeking attention or trying to grab headlines. This story is relatively unnoticed when he easily could have made that not the case.

Dr. Keith 15th October 2021 11:10 AM

Plague311, the wind ain’t wet enough yet, but your bladder seems to be larger than mine.

Warp12 15th October 2021 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by plague311 (Post 13630329)
My feeling about it is this guy certainly didn't seem to want the attention or notoriety. This is the first we're hearing about it and it happened in April of 2019.

Al didn't bring a lawsuit against the hospital, which means he couldn't have been overly motivated by money. I don't think it's hard to see he easily could have won some monetary compensation. Any hospital would settle out of court, imo. Instead they apologized and implemented changes.

Al didn't even bring a suit against the police department. His lawyer called, the police department investigated and offered Al money, which he took. If you ask me, $1.3m isn't even close to what he could have gotten had he actually made a fuss.

All of this is to say, we aren't looking at a man that's seeking attention or trying to grab headlines. This story is relatively unnoticed when he easily could have made that not the case.

Yeah, but who cares? Who is making the case that this was a money grab? The discussion is about whether there was racism involved, which is really the premise of the thread and many comments within.

plague311 15th October 2021 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr. Keith (Post 13630331)
Plague311, the wind ainít wet enough yet, but your bladder seems to be larger than mine.

I'm a glutton for punishment....and I'm doing server updates all day today. I'm on 7 of 12. My eyes are about to bleed.

plague311 15th October 2021 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warp12 (Post 13630332)
Yeah, but who cares? Who is making the case that this was a money grab? The discussion is about whether there was racism involved, which is really the premise of the thread and many comments within.

Quote:

Thread drift (also drift) is the phenomenon of the conversation in a particular thread of the forum straying somewhat from the original topic through a series of comments made in follow-up posts. In some ways, drift in a thread is similar to a person's "stream of consciousness" thought process.
:thumbsup:

Dave Rogers 15th October 2021 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thermal (Post 13630297)
These officers have a racist history? Please share.

Or do you mean the BPD has a history, and of course all its members past, present and future unwaveringly agree to continue the policy?

Yes, everything falls into binary choices like that, and there's no such thing as organisational culture or peer pressure. Thank you for simplifying.

Dave

Thermal 15th October 2021 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Rogers (Post 13630349)
Yes, everything falls into binary choices like that, and there's no such thing as organisational culture or peer pressure. Thank you for simplifying.

Dave

It's just that I heard something about presumption of innocence. Seeing that quite baldly told to go take a flying leap is a little...simple.

Dave Rogers 15th October 2021 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thermal (Post 13630352)
It's just that I heard something about presumption of innocence. Seeing that quite baldly told to go take a flying leap is a little...simple.

Agreed. Personally I think it's possible, but not proven, that both were racist incidents, and possible, but not proven, that in one case the victim wasn't necessarily a model citizen; not that the latter in any way excludes or excuses the former.

Dave

smartcooky 15th October 2021 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr. Keith (Post 13630132)
How would this case look different if the cops were racist?

(Additional paragraphs removed to help the reader focus.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr. Keith (Post 13630150)
You are confused. Iím not asking you to fantasize. Iím asking what evidence of racism would look like to you. In other words, what would it look like if they were racist?

Hint: I am asking about your definitions of racism and evidence of racism and how they would apply to a case like this. In a few posts I will point out that based on your definitions (which I expect will exclude things that most people would view as evidence of racism) there is no case in the year 2021 that you would ever consider racist. Itís not a novel approach, but it could be enlightening for the group if you are willing to engage.


You can lead a horse to water......

smartcooky 15th October 2021 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thermal (Post 13630352)
It's just that I heard something about presumption of innocence. Seeing that quite baldly told to go take a flying leap is a little...simple.

Then its a pity that this "presumption of innocence" thing you are talking about is either something Boston PD didn't know about, or didn't seem to apply to Mr. Copeland.

Thermal 15th October 2021 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smartcooky (Post 13630380)
Then its a pity that this "presumption of innocence" thing you are talking about is either something Boston PD didn't know about, or didn't seem to apply to Mr. Copeland.

Quite true. At a pure guess, I'd venture that a world-class drinking town like Boston must leave the cops dragging (what they think are) drunks off the street pretty often. Perhaps they go on autopilot and treat any nodder-off as a drunk. I can see that, without condoning it.

So in terms of #LWB, do these cops or the wider BPD disproportionately cuff black drunks for the tank? If so, maybe a head count off how many black versus white drunks are lollygagging around? If these guys have a habit of giving a proper Irish drunk a pat on the head and pointing them towards home, but slap the cuffs on black men, we have a demonstrable bias.

plague311 15th October 2021 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thermal (Post 13630398)
Quite true. At a pure guess, I'd venture that a world-class drinking town like Boston must leave the cops dragging (what they think are) drunks off the street pretty often. Perhaps they go on autopilot and treat any nodder-off as a drunk. I can see that, without condoning it.

So in terms of #LWB, do these cops or the wider BPD disproportionately cuff black drunks for the tank? If so, maybe a head count off how many black versus white drunks are lollygagging around? If these guys have a habit of giving a proper Irish drunk a pat on the head and pointing them towards home, but slap the cuffs on black men, we have a demonstrable bias.

Which, as we all know, is impossible to get statistics for so it's basically a fool's errand.

Warp12 15th October 2021 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smartcooky (Post 13630380)
Then its a pity that this "presumption of innocence" thing you are talking about is either something Boston PD didn't know about, or didn't seem to apply to Mr. Copeland.

"Mr. Copeland", " Al"...LMAO. Just another drooling stroke victim, to me. The key question is, where is the evidence of racism? None provided, as of yet.

smartcooky 15th October 2021 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warp12 (Post 13630416)
"Mr. Copeland", " Al"...LMAO. Just another drooling stroke victim, to me

This is disgusting.... sub-human IMO.

You have obviously never had anyone you love or care about suffer a stroke. I hope that never happens to you!

On the other hand, it would be fully deserving given some of the disgraceful things you have said on this forum, like mocking the deaf, and making fun of others with disabilities.

plague311 15th October 2021 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smartcooky (Post 13630423)
This is disgusting.... sub-human IMO.

You have obviously never had anyone you love or care about suffer a stroke. I hope that never happens to you!

On the other hand, it would be fully deserving given some of the disgraceful things you have said on this forum, like mocking the deaf, and making fun of others with disabilities.

His goal is to get negative attention rather than further the conversation. That's why he does it. He doesn't actually want evidence because nothing would count as evidence to him. It was all be handwaved away.

When hateful things get said that's when I realize the conversation is over. Totally not telling anyone what to do, but I'd suggest the same. It's seriously not worth it.

Warp12 15th October 2021 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by plague311 (Post 13630427)
His goal is to get negative attention rather than further the conversation. That's why he does it. He doesn't actually want evidence because nothing would count as evidence to him.

Show me the evidence of racism, in this case. I keep asking...but none has been presented.

Warp12 15th October 2021 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by plague311 (Post 13630427)
When hateful things get said that's when I realize the conversation is over.

Like implying that individuals are racists, without any evidence to support it?

smartcooky 15th October 2021 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by plague311 (Post 13630427)
His goal is to get negative attention rather than further the conversation. That's why he does it. He doesn't actually want evidence because nothing would count as evidence to him. It was all be handwaved away.

When hateful things get said that's when I realize the conversation is over. Totally not telling anyone what to do, but I'd suggest the same. It's seriously not worth it.

Yep, 100% agree, I'm out.

mgidm86 15th October 2021 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by plague311 (Post 13630427)
His goal is to get negative attention rather than further the conversation. That's why he does it. He doesn't actually want evidence because nothing would count as evidence to him. It was all be handwaved away.

When hateful things get said that's when I realize the conversation is over. Totally not telling anyone what to do, but I'd suggest the same. It's seriously not worth it.




'kin A.


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