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-   -   Covid-19 and Politics (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=342577)

Darat 23rd June 2020 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zooterkin (Post 13135065)
... in places where 2m distancing cannot be adhered to.


The usual approach for this government, can’t hit target? Change the target of course.

The Don 23rd June 2020 03:04 PM

The UK Coronavirus daily press conference has been cancelled.

No more updates because the pubs will be open soon and Covid has been beaten :rolleyes:

Captain_Swoop 23rd June 2020 03:52 PM

Hancock said "
Our plan is working. Having protected the NHS & reduced the number of coronavirus cases we can now carefully lift restrictions. We must continue to protect our NHS & stay vigilant & stay alert."

60000 deaths
Highest death rate in Europe
Highest excess death rate in the world
Failed to protect care homes
Failed on testing
Failed on PPE
Failed on getting kids back to school
Failed on Track and Trace app

But remember, the plan is working.

The Don 23rd June 2020 10:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop (Post 13135440)
Hancock said "
Our plan is working. Having protected the NHS & reduced the number of coronavirus cases we can now carefully lift restrictions. We must continue to protect our NHS & stay vigilant & stay alert."

60000 deaths
Highest death rate in Europe
Highest excess death rate in the world
Failed to protect care homes
Failed on testing
Failed on PPE
Failed on getting kids back to school
Failed on Track and Trace app

But remember, the plan is working.

Depends on what the plan is ;)

Darat 24th June 2020 01:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Don (Post 13135816)
Depends on what the plan is ;)

The plan was to become PM.

The Don 24th June 2020 01:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darat (Post 13135878)
The plan was to become PM.

Then the plan has worked to perfection - at least from Boris Johnson's perspective :(

The Don 24th June 2020 02:05 AM

More depressing economic news, this time looking just at the Scottish economy:

Quote:

Economic forecasters believe it will be at least 18 months before Scotland makes up the output lost due to the pandemic.

The Fraser of Allander Institute said the country was now in its deepest recession in living memory.

A report from the think tank says in the most optimistic scenario it will be the end of 2021 before the economy recovers.

In the worst case scenario it could be 2024 before a "new normal" is reached.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/worl...ost_type=share

P.J. Denyer 24th June 2020 02:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop (Post 13135440)
Hancock said "
Our plan is working. Having protected the NHS & reduced the number of coronavirus cases we can now carefully lift restrictions. We must continue to protect our NHS & stay vigilant & stay alert."

60000 deaths
Highest death rate in Europe
Highest excess death rate in the world
Failed to protect care homes
Failed on testing
Failed on PPE
Failed on getting kids back to school
Failed on Track and Trace app

But remember, the plan is working.

Positive headlines for Boris when he briefs journalists that he's going to announce pubs reopening.

Positive headlines for Boris when he announces pubs reopening.

Positive headlines for Boris when pubs do reopen.

Distraction from those nasty questions and how angry he gets when asked them.

Yep, the plan's working.

Darat 24th June 2020 03:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Don (Post 13135884)
Then the plan has worked to perfection - at least from Boris Johnson's perspective :(

Yep.

zooterkin 24th June 2020 05:14 AM

Most of the headlines today have been completely irresponsible (no change there, you may say). The 2m rule has not been 'scrapped', or 'axed', or even 'halved'. Where possible, it still applies; the change is that where it isn't possible, and as a result certain activities or venues were banned, a minimum 1m distancing plus additional measures is now permitted. Boris is, of course, completely unable to convey this.

The Don 24th June 2020 05:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zooterkin (Post 13136027)
Most of the headlines today have been completely irresponsible (no change there, you may say). The 2m rule has not been 'scrapped', or 'axed', or even 'halved'. Where possible, it still applies; the change is that where it isn't possible, and as a result certain activities or venues were banned, a minimum 1m distancing plus additional measures is now permitted. Boris is, of course, completely unable to convey this.

I disagree, IMO he is unwilling to convey it.

He wants to give the impression that the Coronavirus crisis has been successfully managed through to a conclusion and the "scrapping" of the 2 metre rule is an important part of that (as is the opening of pubs). It hasn't actually been scrapped because when a lack of social distancing causes the second wave* of infection in a few weeks or months time he can blame small businesses and the public, not his government and its horribly incompetent handling of the whole thing.


* - of course it could just be a continuation of the first wave

Captain_Swoop 24th June 2020 06:54 AM

Boris Johnson at PMQs "I wonder if the Right Honourable gentleman can name a single country in the world that has a functional contact tracing app?"

Keir Starmer - "Germany"

Captain_Swoop 24th June 2020 07:57 AM

My local MPs Simon Clarke for Middlesbrough South and Jacob Young for Redcar(Both Tory) have put out a joint statement saying that it's our patriotic duty to go out and enjoy ourselves.

zooterkin 24th June 2020 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Don (Post 13136034)
I disagree, IMO he is unwilling to convey it.

He wants to give the impression that the Coronavirus crisis has been successfully managed through to a conclusion and the "scrapping" of the 2 metre rule is an important part of that (as is the opening of pubs). It hasn't actually been scrapped because when a lack of social distancing causes the second wave* of infection in a few weeks or months time he can blame small businesses and the public, not his government and its horribly incompetent handling of the whole thing.


* - of course it could just be a continuation of the first wave

Well, both could be true, of course; however, my general inclination is to suspect cock-up rather than conspiracy, doubly so when lazy-boy Johnson is involved. To explain something clearly, he’d first need to understand it himself, then put time and effort into presenting it in a clear and unambiguous way. None of those is exactly his forte.

catsmate 24th June 2020 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop (Post 13136223)
My local MPs Simon Clarke for Middlesbrough South and Jacob Young for Redcar(Both Tory) have put out a joint statement saying that it's our patriotic duty to go out and enjoy ourselves.

Is stoning Conservative politicians a valid form of entertainment?

Captain_Swoop 24th June 2020 03:55 PM

In the absence of the Coronavirus briefing, here are today’s deaths

Germany 0
Belgium 9
Netherlands 2
Portugal 3
Switzerland 2
Austria 0
Denmark 0

UK 152

Squeegee Beckenheim 25th June 2020 07:40 AM

331 Tory MPs voted against a motion to introduce weekly testing for NHS staff

zooterkin 25th June 2020 08:02 AM

Major incident declared as thousands flock to the South coast.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...nd-south-coast

KDLarsen 25th June 2020 08:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zooterkin (Post 13137156)
Major incident declared as thousands flock to the South coast.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...nd-south-coast

I must admit I'm surprised the same thing hasn't happened here in Denmark, since the weather has been scorching for the past week, 25-30 degrees C with only a little wind.

Even the patrons at our local "harbour bath" seemed somewhat behaved when I walked past there yesterday - I would have joined them as I was coming off a 6 hour shift in the afternoon heat, but it was right before closing time.

Squeegee Beckenheim 25th June 2020 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KDLarsen (Post 13137203)
I must admit I'm surprised the same thing hasn't happened here in Denmark, since the weather has been scorching for the past week, 25-30 degrees C with only a little wind.

Even the patrons at our local "harbour bath" seemed somewhat behaved when I walked past there yesterday - I would have joined them as I was coming off a 6 hour shift in the afternoon heat, but it was right before closing time.

Do your citizens trust your government?

KDLarsen 25th June 2020 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim (Post 13137306)
Do your citizens trust your government?

Fair point.

The Danish foreign ministry published revised travel recommendations today, reducing most of th EU27 countries to yellow (ie. you can travel there, but pay attention to local restrictions and follow the usual guidelines). The countries that remains orange (ie. travel restrictions apply) are Romania, Portugal, UK, Ireland, Malta and Sweden (with the exception of the Norrbotten region).

The expectations is that the list will be updated once per week to reflect the current infection situation, and should a country go back to orange/red, travellers are advised to end their travel immediately, return to Denmark, and be tested.

The updated travel recommendations are reciprocal, so travellers from the same countries are permitted to travel to Denmark, provided they provide proof of a booked six-day stay.

Carrot Flower King 25th June 2020 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim (Post 13137136)

But...but...but...Aren't they all about protecting the NHS?

PS I'm not surprised that my brain-dead lickspittle of an MP was on that list.

I am soooo glad I'm retired and so out of all that. Shame The Sister isn't, but she caught Covid at work (at a hospital which has been in the nationals news recently), so that's alright then.

P.J. Denyer 25th June 2020 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carrot Flower King (Post 13137375)
But...but...but...Aren't they all about protecting the NHS?

PS I'm not surprised that my brain-dead lickspittle of an MP was on that list.

I am soooo glad I'm retired and so out of all that. Shame The Sister isn't, but she caught Covid at work (at a hospital which has been in the nationals news recently), so that's alright then.

Mine too, to my complete lack of any kind of surprise what so ever. Henley would elect a turnip if the local Conservative Party chose to pin a blue rosette on it, the tragedy over the last couple of incumbents is that they didn't.

Captain_Swoop 25th June 2020 03:44 PM

I’m English don’t you know! We don’t get ill cos 2 WWs & 1 World Cup

The Don 26th June 2020 12:27 AM

The nation calls a state of emergency because of tens of thousands of nitwits deciding that they absolutely need to go to the beach, take a dump in the dunes and leave their garbage there but the lead story on the BBC website is that Liverpool has won the Premier league and thousands of supporters decided that they wanted to put their lives at risk by gathering at Anfield without masks of social distancing.

:mad:

The Don 26th June 2020 01:50 AM

Yet another example of the UK government's complete lack of leadership on Coronavirus.

The background to this is that the UK government has made a series of announcements regarding the lifting of "lockdown" restrictions in England. Although it represents an incremental lifting of restrictions and some of the announced things (such as pubs opening) will not come into effect for more than a week - the headlines in the right wing tabloids have given the impression that it's all over and we're back to normal.

It's hardly surprising therefore that tens of thousands of people decided to go to the beach yesterday, causing chaos, failing to observe social distancing and leaving tonnes of waste in their wake. The local authorities responded by calling a "major incident".

Rather than taking charge of the situation, the government has said:

Quote:

Environment Secretary George Eustice has said the government is reluctant to close beaches after a major incident was declared in Bournemouth when thousands crowded the coast.

Mr Eustice said people need to work with the government and observe coronavirus guidelines.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-53190209

We used to have a couple of stereotypical middle class older parents as neighbours a few years ago. We had the "pleasure" of hearing months of empty threats of punishment while their ill-behaved brood ran wild safe in the knowledge that the parents would never follow through on those threats. I get the same feeling about the government's approach to lockdown. As the number of cases and deaths start to increase again, they'll say how disappointed they are with the public's behaviour and they'll threaten to close the pubs, but the person in the street knows that unless there are literally thousands dying daily, nothing will actually happen.

Indeed, it seems that they're relying on the capriciousness of the British weather instead of, you know, actually taking charge of the situation.

Quote:

"The British weather being what it is maybe that will be short-lived and people will return to the type of social distancing they've actually demonstrated quite well."
Cowardly ********* :mad:

The Don 26th June 2020 01:58 AM

Meanwhile, Sweden is repeating the same messaging as the United States :(

Quote:

Sweden's state epidemiologist has taken issue with the World Health Organization (WHO) for including it on a list of 11 countries with "very significant resurgence" of Covid-19. Anders Tegnell has told Swedish TV the WHO has completely misinterpreted the data. Infections are rising because of more testing, says Dr Tegnell, arguing that other countries are at the start of their epidemic.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/worl...ost_type=share

Edited to add......

It worries me when countries reject comparisons on the ground that they're not applicable or that their country is special in some way - the UK government's refusal to acknowledge that the UK seems to have one of the highest per-capita death tolls because apparently numbers cannot be compared internationally is an example of this.

The Don 26th June 2020 02:24 AM

Meanwhile, Wales is hardly covering itself in glory:

Quote:

Lockdown restrictions will not be eased if large parties and fights at beaches continue in Wales, the first minister has warned.

Videos on social media showed large crowds at Ogmore-by-Sea, Vale of Glamorgan, followed by violent clashes on Thursday evening.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-53186920

IMO if there is a repeat this kind of thing, the Welsh government won't hesitate to delay plans to lift lockdown restrictions.

Darat 26th June 2020 03:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Don (Post 13137984)
Yet another example of the UK government's complete lack of leadership on Coronavirus.

The background to this is that the UK government has made a series of announcements regarding the lifting of "lockdown" restrictions in England. Although it represents an incremental lifting of restrictions and some of the announced things (such as pubs opening) will not come into effect for more than a week - the headlines in the right wing tabloids have given the impression that it's all over and we're back to normal.

It's hardly surprising therefore that tens of thousands of people decided to go to the beach yesterday, causing chaos, failing to observe social distancing and leaving tonnes of waste in their wake. The local authorities responded by calling a "major incident".

Rather than taking charge of the situation, the government has said:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-53190209

We used to have a couple of stereotypical middle class older parents as neighbours a few years ago. We had the "pleasure" of hearing months of empty threats of punishment while their ill-behaved brood ran wild safe in the knowledge that the parents would never follow through on those threats. I get the same feeling about the government's approach to lockdown. As the number of cases and deaths start to increase again, they'll say how disappointed they are with the public's behaviour and they'll threaten to close the pubs, but the person in the street knows that unless there are literally thousands dying daily, nothing will actually happen.

Indeed, it seems that they're relying on the capriciousness of the British weather instead of, you know, actually taking charge of the situation.



Cowardly ********* :mad:


Which is exactly what Johnson's government wanted - polling numbers are down you know!

zooterkin 26th June 2020 04:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Don (Post 13137988)
Meanwhile, Sweden is repeating the same messaging as the United States :(



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/worl...ost_type=share

Edited to add......

It worries me when countries reject comparisons on the ground that they're not applicable or that their country is special in some way - the UK government's refusal to acknowledge that the UK seems to have one of the highest per-capita death tolls because apparently numbers cannot be compared internationally is an example of this.

Sweden seems to have a particularly bad case of exceptionalism, based on their consensus approach.
Quote:

The ostracising of critics has affected the Swedish Covid-19 coverage, which helps explain public opinion and behaviour. By extension, a large proportion of blame for the death toll falls upon a media environment that is too quick to close ranks and defend the status quo. It’s upheld by individuals, some more than others. Some soul-searching is in order for them, and for Sweden as a nation; both into how the country came to embrace this disastrous strategy, but also into how our opinion corridor helped lay its path.

Covid-19 has toppled Swedish exceptionalism. How are we so open-minded with such limited room for divergence? How are we so rational when our Covid-19 strategy is an outlier compared to that of countries with more successful responses based on the same data? There’s no environmentalist teenager to admire here. Just a toxic pride contributing to more than 5,200 dead Swedes, who might otherwise have been saved. Hindsight suggests it’s Sweden’s leadership, its strategy and gatekeepers in the media who are shipwrecked – not the dissenters.
https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...d19-death-toll

Rolfe 26th June 2020 08:06 AM

There is an increasing gap opening up between Scotland and England. It's hard to get England-only figures but it's getting to the point that you could just take the "UK" figures for new infections and deaths and call it England and you wouldn't be far out. Admittedly Wales has had a slaughterhouse cluster which has inflated its figures, but apart from that it's doing pretty well. Northern Ireland, although worse than the republic, has always been the best-performing of the four UK nations and why they don't go to an all-Ireland disease control strategy as has been the case for animal diseases for decades I don't know. (OK I do actually.)

But today in Scotland?

Scotland not far away from eliminating coronavirus

Our 7-day average of new cases is only about 16,* which is firmly in the "beating coronavirus" category according to the endcoronavirus.org web site. We had no new deaths reported today and the 7-day average of new deaths is down to only 1.7 per day. They're not telling us where the clusters are still appearing beyond local authority area, but vast swathes of the country haven't seen a new case for a week, some for several weeks. Really, outside of Glasgow, the lower Clyde conurbation, Edinburgh, Dundee and Aberdeen, there's not a lot happening.

We're getting horrendous political flak for this. Because we've come out of lockdown a bit more slowly than England, and haven't participated in either the ill-fated app or the SERCO-centralised contact tracing, we've been accused of petty nationalism, or hating the English, of "lagging behind", of "playing catch-up", of not caring about businesses or jobs or the economy, and yesterday a banner portraying our First Minister as Hitler was removed from railings in Edinburgh.

But it's working. People are visibly more relaxed even though they're still distancing and more and more masks are appearing in and around shops. The determination to eliminate local community transmission of the virus appears to have strengthened in our politicians. In particular if we can do this our children may be able to return to school normally in six weeks or so.

The politics of the vilification of Scotland for doing this is something else. It's not pretty. But the fact is that nobody can reasonably talk about "the UK" as if it was one coronavirus entity any longer.

*ETA: Having unpicked some dodgy statistical reporting I can confirm that the correct figure for Scotland's 7-day average for new cases is in fact 16.4 per day. And as we're about to drop a couple of high-ish days from the rolling average it's set to come down some more over the weekend.

catsmate 26th June 2020 08:36 AM

I went for a two hour walk today, passed through three parks on my way. Despite the heat people were maintaining appropriate distance, clustering in tiny groups.

GlennB 26th June 2020 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rolfe (Post 13138240)
There is an increasing gap opening up between Scotland and England. It's hard to get England-only figures but it's getting to the point that you could just take the "UK" figures for new infections and deaths and call it England and you wouldn't be far out.
...
The politics of the vilification of Scotland for doing this is something else. It's not pretty. But the fact is that nobody can reasonably talk about "the UK" as if it was one coronavirus entity any longer.

From The Guardian:

"Ben Waugh, who runs a bicycle hire shop on the seafront at Bournemouth, has lived in the seaside resort all his life but has never seen so many people packed on to the beach – and so much terrible behaviour.

“I understand why people wanted to come,” he said, as the cleanup continued around him. “It’s the best beach around and when the weather’s good it’s like being in Benidorm. But what happened here this week was horrific.”

Waugh watched aghast as groups of revellers took drugs and drank their way through countless crates of beer. “There was a Lord of the Flies vibe to it. The atmosphere was ugly.”

And there were stabbings during a brawl and open abuse of council workers who were jut trying clean up or deter people from lighting bbqs. Boxes of faeces left behind ...

There's a note of something close to insanity in a fair slice of the English population at the moment. Our intended move back to the UK is stalled for a number of reasons, but we're glad we're heading to Wales. If we weren't committed to the move we might well have changed our minds about it, or at least delayed by a year. Or choose Scotland instead ;)

Rolfe 26th June 2020 09:37 AM

Wales is further from independence than Scotland, but it's a better choice than England.

We had to get the police in to two parks yesterday, but it was more a case of drinking in public (against local by-laws) and general yobbishness than serious crowding. I gather the beach near Edinburgh was a problem too. So we do have some problems with idiots too, but the amount of space available per person seems to be working in our favour. There were also a lot of photos of deserted Scottish beaches circulating yesterday. And I don't mean remote ones, places like Aberdeen and Prestwick.

Arcade22 26th June 2020 09:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Don (Post 13137988)
Meanwhile, Sweden is repeating the same messaging as the United States :(



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/worl...ost_type=share

Edited to add......

It worries me when countries reject comparisons on the ground that they're not applicable or that their country is special in some way - the UK government's refusal to acknowledge that the UK seems to have one of the highest per-capita death tolls because apparently numbers cannot be compared internationally is an example of this.

He's absolutely right and it's very strange how the WHO could misinterpret the increase in people testing positive with there being increased rate of infection.

They of all people should know that if you start testing more people, which is what Swedish regions has been doing the last couple of weeks, you will get more positive results even if the rate of infection stays the same or even gets lower.

By contrast, the amount of people who are hospitalized or in the ICU has decreased and continues to decrease as have fatalities. In other words, it's completely inaccurate to state that Sweden is facing a resurgence of infection let alone one that will outpace the healthcare systems ability to handle it.

Sweden doesn't even have any excess mortality at this point.

Rolfe 26th June 2020 10:10 AM

Sweden still has a positivity rate of 12-13%. That's bad and indicates that it's still not testing nearly enough. It's accepted that once your positivity rate is under 3% you're probably not missing a significant number of cases. 12-13% is a lot more than 3%.

For comparison the positivity rate in Scotland is currently 0.5%. Yesterday we tested 5,841 people and got 17 positives. (That's actually a positivity rate of 0.3%, 0.5% is the current 7-day rolling average.)

A public health expert suggested that even in Scotland and with that positivity rate our real number of new infections per day could still be two to three times the number reported. That would be 30 to 50 cases a day which isn't that bad but it's worrying if we're only picking up (agan the current 7-day average) 16.4 of them. Where this sort of calculation leaves Sweden, with over 1,000 new cases reported every day and a positivity rate in the teens, I dread to think.

Arcade22 26th June 2020 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rolfe (Post 13138353)
Sweden still has a positivity rate of 12-13%.

Which has absolutely nothing to do with what the WHO said. They have already backtracked and now admit that Sweden does not have an increased rate of infection and that it "has managed to keep the spread of infection at levels that Swedish health care can handle."

That is the exact opposite of what they originally said.

Rolfe 26th June 2020 11:08 AM

The positivity rate still indicates that you have a lot of infections not being picked up though, which was my point.

dann 26th June 2020 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcade22 (Post 13138373)
Which has absolutely nothing to do with what the WHO said. They have already backtracked and now admit that Sweden does not have an increased rate of infection and that it "has managed to keep the spread of infection at levels that Swedish health care can handle."

That is the exact opposite of what they originally said.


WHO may have made a minor mistake because most of the others on the list of high-risk countries are there because they have levels of contamination considered dangerous because they are rising. Sweden, however, is on the list because the infection level has been extremely high the whole time, which has only become apparent because Sweden only started testing very recently - at long last and not yet nearly enough. Stability isn't always desired, and I'm an pretty sure that the senior citizens of Sweden would rather see the rate of infection go down and won't feel inclined to praise how stable it is.

Sweden hasn't been removed from WHO's list of countries with dangerously high levels of infection, and Sweden's neighbors Norway, Finland and Denmark just refused to open their borders to Swedes - in spite of the pleading from Swedish politicians.
Congratulations with your pathetic imaginary 'victory' over WHO.

dann 26th June 2020 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcade22 (Post 13138335)
He's absolutely right and it's very strange how the WHO could misinterpret the increase in people testing positive with there being increased rate of infection.

They of all people should know that if you start testing more people, which is what Swedish regions has been doing the last couple of weeks, you will get more positive results even if the rate of infection stays the same or even gets lower.

By contrast, the amount of people who are hospitalized or in the ICU has decreased and continues to decrease as have fatalities. In other words, it's completely inaccurate to state that Sweden is facing a resurgence of infection let alone one that will outpace the healthcare systems ability to handle it.

Sweden doesn't even have any excess mortality at this point.


And yet they had 50 Covid-19 deaths today and 303 new cases. Today Denmark, Norway and Finland combined had 2 deaths and 98 new cases, and it was one of the worst days this week.
Sweden has 171 patients in ICUs. Denmark, Norway and Finland have 16! Combined!

When the heath-care system tells nursing homes not to send Covid-19 patients to the hospital and tells people who can no longer breathe properly to stay at home and take care of it themselves, then the "health-care system's ability to handle" the virus was outpaced a long time ago.

In the meantime, Swedish politicians seem hell-bent on denying their responsibility, the Swedish media let them get away with it, and when a well-prepared journalist starts asking them questions about it, they get offended because they are only used to the kind of questions that Trump is asked by Hannity.
Interview with the Swedish minister of foreign affairs, Karen Linde .... sorry, that was supposed to have been Ann Linde! :)


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