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-   -   Demand evidence (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=336652)

Emre_1974tr 28th May 2019 04:26 PM

Demand evidence
 
1- We see that the natural and healthy desires of the people are generally in return (for example, the existence / presence of water as a response to the desire for drinking water, etc.).

2- So it is wiser to think that paradise exists.

Sideroxylon 28th May 2019 04:30 PM

Imagine if we lived on a waterless planet!

theprestige 28th May 2019 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr (Post 12709341)
1- We see that the natural and healthy desires of the people are generally in return (for example, the existence / presence of water as a response to the desire for drinking water, etc.).



2- So it is wiser to think that paradise exists.

People desire things that exist, therefore desire is evidence that a thing exists?

Norman Alexander 28th May 2019 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr (Post 12709341)
1- We see that the natural and healthy desires of the people are generally in return (for example, the existence / presence of water as a response to the desire for drinking water, etc.).

No, we don't. It's the other way round. Life evolves to take advantage of the environment. If the Earth had liquid methane oceans, life would probably evolve to drink liquid methane.

Quote:

2- So it is wiser to think that paradise exists.
Wow, you sure jumped a LOT of logical steps there. Such a statement is completely unrelated to the first one. No connection whatsoever.

fuelair 28th May 2019 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norman Alexander (Post 12709349)
No, we don't. It's the other way round. Life evolves to take advantage of the environment. If the Earth had liquid methane oceans, life would probably evolve to drink liquid methane.

Wow, you sure jumped a LOT of logical steps there. Such a statement is completely unrelated to the first one. No connection whatsoever.

Correct but typical of all posts the poster has pooted in these semi-hallowed pages!!!!!!!

Thermal 28th May 2019 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norman Alexander (Post 12709349)
No, we don't. It's the other way round. Life evolves to take advantage of the environment. If the Earth had liquid methane oceans, life would probably evolve to drink liquid methane.

Wow, you sure jumped a LOT of logical steps there. Such a statement is completely unrelated to the first one. No connection whatsoever.

Cool. I thought it was just me.

Nowhere Man 28th May 2019 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr (Post 12709341)
1- We see that the natural and healthy desires of the people are generally in return (for example, the existence / presence of water as a response to the desire for drinking water, etc.).

2- So it is wiser to think that paradise exists.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...nomes_plan.png

You skipped a step there.

Fred

Sideroxylon 28th May 2019 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr (Post 12709341)
1- We see that the natural and healthy desires of the people are generally in return (for example, the existence / presence of water as a response to the desire for drinking water, etc.).

2- So it is wiser to think that paradise exists.

Emre, this looks to me like a Frankenstein hybrid of a Said Nursi argument for the existence of paradise and the fine-tuned universe argument for the existence of a creator. This fails utterly as argument for either.

Loss Leader 28th May 2019 05:36 PM

"It's amazing!" declared the wine. "This glass is shaped exactly the same way I am! What are the odds?"

halleyscomet 28th May 2019 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr (Post 12709341)
1- We see that the natural and healthy desires of the people are generally in return (for example, the existence / presence of water as a response to the desire for drinking water, etc.).



2- So it is wiser to think that paradise exists.


Oh! Fun game! What else can we conclude exists just because we want it to?

I want Star Trekís green chicks with red hair who lust after humans to be real. Preferably a couple bisexual ones who will convince my wife to be a switch hitter with them.

By your own logic, that means itís wiser to think that they exist. Clearly we need to give NASA more money to build the star ships to send my wife and I to the planet of bisexual green skinned chicks with red hair and a carnal interest in humans.

halleyscomet 28th May 2019 05:45 PM

Demand evidence
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sideroxylon (Post 12709399)
Emre, this looks to me like a Frankenstein hybrid of a Said Nursi argument for the existence of paradise and the fine-tuned universe argument for the existence of a creator. This fails utterly as argument for either.



But itís GREAT as a basis for Star Trek themed smut. Itís not like Star Trek smut writers need much of an excuse but they always like it when someone throws them a bone.

Sideroxylon 28th May 2019 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by halleyscomet (Post 12709423)
Oh! Fun game! What else can we conclude exists just because we want it to?

I want Star Trek’s green chicks with red hair who lust after humans to be real. Preferably a couple bisexual ones who will convince my wife to be a switch hitter with them.

By your own logic, that means it’s wiser to think that they exist. Clearly we need to give NASA more money to build the star ships to send my wife and I to the planet of bisexual green skinned chicks with red hair and a carnal interest in humans.

Wouldn’t the parallel go:
P1- I want Star Trek’s green chicks with red hair who lust after humans to be real.
P2 They are real

(A whole lot of unstated assumptions.)

C: Paradise exists (with a whole lot of Star Trek green chicks with red hair who lust after humans).

ETA. No, I get your point now. Trump, get Space Force funding for this.

Emre_1974tr 28th May 2019 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nowhere Man (Post 12709390)



1- We see that the natural and healthy desires of the people are generally in return (for example, the existence / presence of water as a response to the desire for drinking water, etc.).

2- People want to live in health, happiness and pleasure, blessings forever.

3- So it is wiser to think that Paradise exists.

halleyscomet 28th May 2019 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sideroxylon (Post 12709432)
Wouldnít the parallel go:
P1- I want Star Trekís green chicks with red hair who lust after humans to be real.
P2 They are real

(A whole lot of unstated assumptions.)

C: Paradise exists (with a whole lot of Star Trek green chicks with red hair who lust after humans).

ETA. No, I get your point now. Trump, get Space Force funding for this.



SEE! Make love not war!

Lots and lots of love.

Until weíre chafed.

Wait, if weíre in danger of chafing we can just WISH for the perfect moisturizing lube, which means itís only logical that it exists!

halleyscomet 28th May 2019 06:19 PM

Demand evidence
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr (Post 12709442)
1- We see that the natural and healthy desires of the people are generally in return (for example, the existence / presence of water as a response to the desire for drinking water, etc.).



2- People want to live in health, happiness and pleasure, blessings forever.



3- So it is wiser to think that Paradise exists.



Exactly. Thatís why itís wiser to think space orgies with green-skinned redheads exist.

You want, to paraphrase a philosopher, your ID preserved in an ideal state indefinitely. I want to engage in carnal activities with, well, Iíll stop there. While what I was about to describe is legal in most places the forum does have very clear rules about obscenity.

By the way, before anyone tries to report my posts as off-topic Iíd like to point out that OP has already described paradise as an eternity of consequence-free lust and gluttony in another thread. Weíre BOTH wishing for space sex orgies and are justifying the possibility of them existing with the exact same logic. The primary difference is I know wishing wonít make it so and Iím not eager to die to find out if wishes come true.

Norman Alexander 28th May 2019 06:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr (Post 12709442)
1- We see that the natural and healthy desires of the people are generally in return (for example, the existence / presence of water as a response to the desire for drinking water, etc.).

2- People want to live in health, happiness and pleasure, blessings forever.

3- So it is wiser to think that Paradise exists.

Most sentient creatures want to do this, not just humans.

And adding another completely unrelated step doesn't stop it being an Underpants Gnome argument.

halleyscomet 28th May 2019 06:28 PM

Demand evidence
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Norman Alexander (Post 12709457)
Most sentient creatures want to do this, not just humans.



And adding another completely unrelated step doesn't stop it being an Underpants Gnome argument.


I suspect the underpants gnomes were a parody of religious beliefs to begin with.

BTW, You just demonstrated that OP has provided a theological basis for the movie ďAll Dogs Go to Heaven.Ē

MEequalsIxR 28th May 2019 07:20 PM

So where's the evidence in the OP? I thought the topic was to demand evidence and all I see is a lack of evidence.

David Mo 28th May 2019 11:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr (Post 12709442)
1- We see that the natural and healthy desires of the people are generally in return (for example, the existence / presence of water as a response to the desire for drinking water, etc.).

2- People want to live in health, happiness and pleasure, blessings forever.

3- So it is wiser to think that Paradise exists.

I want quite a few things that I don't have (a perfect woman who loves me madly, world peace, etc.) So believing that everything I want exists is not very intelligent. It's a way to clash with reality.
By the way, Christians also believe that God is beyond time and eternal. The idea does not make them panic.
Boethius (480-525): "Eternity, then, is the whole, simultaneous and perfect possession of boundless life"
Thomas Aquinas (1224-1274): “Eternity is simultaneously whole, while time is not, eternity measuring abiding existence and time measuring change… the primary intrinsic difference of time from eternity is that eternity exists as a simultaneous whole and time does not“ .

Loss Leader 29th May 2019 04:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr (Post 12709442)
1- We see that the natural and healthy desires of the people are generally in return (for example, the existence / presence of water as a response to the desire for drinking water, etc.).

2- People want to live in health, happiness and pleasure, blessings forever.

3- So it is wiser to think that Paradise exists.


You've added a step and somehow made your argument worse.

Sideroxylon 29th May 2019 04:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr (Post 12709442)
1- We see that the natural and healthy desires of the people are generally in return (for example, the existence / presence of water as a response to the desire for drinking water, etc.).

2- People want to live in health, happiness and pleasure, blessings forever.

3- So it is wiser to think that Paradise exists.

This part is Nursi, isn’t it.

Myriad 29th May 2019 04:47 AM

"Paradise is exactly like where you are right now. Only much much better." - Laurie Anderson

Myriad 29th May 2019 05:06 AM

What happens to rats or mice when they live in an environment free from disease, hunger, discomfort, and danger? In health, happiness, and pleasure forever? The experiment's been done.

halleyscomet 29th May 2019 05:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MEequalsIxR (Post 12709494)
So where's the evidence in the OP? I thought the topic was to demand evidence and all I see is a lack of evidence.

The "evidence" is literally wishful thinking.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


Emre_1974tr is arguing for a supernatural posthumous perpetuation of his ID based on an extreme interpretation of "The Secret"

Emre_1974tr 29th May 2019 05:22 AM

No, "Secret book" defends pagan thought / brain power absurdity.

There is no thought power in my sentences. I'm showing the opposite.

Senex 29th May 2019 05:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nowhere Man (Post 12709390)

That makes no sense without seeing the full power point presentation.


YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

Sideroxylon 29th May 2019 05:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr (Post 12709801)
No, "Secret book" defends pagan thought / brain power absurdity.

There is no thought power in my sentences. I'm showing the opposite.

Bu ne demek ya?

Emre_1974tr 29th May 2019 05:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr (Post 12709801)
No, "Secret book" defends pagan thought / brain power absurdity.

There is no thought power in my sentences. I'm showing the opposite.


It will be more accurate if the word "desire" instead of the "demand" word.

Thermal 29th May 2019 05:58 AM

OP, saying that good things come to people who want them does not mean good things materialize to people who envision them. This is like Pascals Wager on meth.

Sideroxylon 29th May 2019 06:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr (Post 12709801)
No, "Secret book" defends pagan thought / brain power absurdity.

There is no thought power in my sentences. I'm showing the opposite.

I get the reference now (prompted by Thermal)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Secret_(book)

Now, I recognised that is not what you were saying because I had seen part of this made by Nursi who may well have gotten it from someone like Al-Ghazali. As I understand it, the argument addresses people who already believe in a beneficent God.

There is a god who is beneficent/merciful towards human beings.
We have a deep desire for eternal life.
It would be incompatible with these traits of God’s to deny us this desire.
Therefore a realm of eternal existence exists.

Belz... 29th May 2019 06:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr (Post 12709341)
1- We see that the natural and healthy desires of the people are generally in return (for example, the existence / presence of water as a response to the desire for drinking water, etc.).

2- So it is wiser to think that paradise exists.

A nonsensical nonsequitur. A rare beast, and one that clearly needs no water to subsist.

Sideroxylon 29th May 2019 06:40 AM

Also similar to Descartes proof of an external world.

Very briefly with a lot of stuff missing from what was quite a gallop anyway.:
I exist
A perfect God exists.
Deception would be incompatible with this idea of perfection.
Therefore an external world that correlates to our sense experience exists.

The Greater Fool 29th May 2019 06:48 AM

"I think, therefore god."

Porpoise of Life 29th May 2019 07:03 AM

Let's grant you your conclusion Emre...

Now, how about some evidence that it's the Muslim paradise that exists?
People also desired the Elysian Fields, Valhalla, the Christian heaven, heavenly Buddhist and Hindu realms one can reincarnate into, or even complete oneness with everything/ oblivion.

So why your paradise?
And please don't say that it's written in your holy text and that the other ones are fake. Because that's what they all claim.

The Greater Fool 29th May 2019 07:09 AM

Isn't the OP just a backward, wrong-headed view of the puddle parable?

fuelair 29th May 2019 07:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr (Post 12709341)
1- We see that the natural and healthy desires of the people are generally in return (for example, the existence / presence of water as a response to the desire for drinking water, etc.).

2- So it is wiser to think that paradise exists.

3-Nope, indeed NOPE!!

fuelair 29th May 2019 07:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr (Post 12709801)
No, "Secret book" defends pagan thought / brain power absurdity.

There is no thought power in my sentences. I'm showing the opposite.

I fully agree there is no thought power in your sentences. Any of your sentences.

fuelair 29th May 2019 07:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Greater Fool (Post 12709900)
Isn't the OP just a backward, wrong-headed view of the puddle parable?

It's a pee puddle parable...Ö...

Emre_1974tr 29th May 2019 07:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life (Post 12709898)
Let's grant you your conclusion Emre...

Now, how about some evidence that it's the Muslim paradise that exists?
.

Answer is in my sentences:

1- We see that the natural and healthy desires of the people are generally in return (for example, the existence / presence of water as a response to the desire for drinking water, etc.).

2- People want to live in health, happiness and pleasure, blessings forever.

3- So it is wiser to think that Paradise exists.

**************

And what is Paradise in Quran?

43:71 They will be served with golden trays and cups, and they will find everything the self desires and the eyes wish for, and you will abide therein forever.

Porpoise of Life 29th May 2019 07:29 AM

You've ignored the rest of my post, and actually my question...
How do you know your paradise is real, and the paradises of others aren't?
And you can't refer to the existence of your religion as evidence, because every religion can do that...


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