International Skeptics Forum

International Skeptics Forum (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/forumindex.php)
-   Non-USA & General Politics (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=98)
-   -   Covid-19 and Politics (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=342577)

catsmate 8th April 2020 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Don (Post 13049219)
Not really politics, but IMO a clear indication that there is a class of people who believe that rules only really apply to the little people:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/worl...ost_type=share

There's never a rabid lynch mob around when they're needed...

catsmate 8th April 2020 01:09 PM

Also, as it doesn't seem to have been mentioned in thread, Trump has had another Tantrump and railed at the WHO, including threatening funding. During a pandemic...
:rolleyes:
Childish, narcissistic idiot.

Planigale 8th April 2020 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by catsmate (Post 13049697)
Really? Name two.


Bollocks. Compare this and this, for example. The UK is projected to have more deaths than Germany, France and Italy combined.
66,000 death compared to 8,800, 20,000 and 15,000 respectively.


No. And again no. Every country is not on the same course.


Actually we, in the sense of statisticians and epidemiologists have an excellent idea. But then you don't like experts do you?
:rolleyes:


:confused:

There is obviously something wrong with the model you quote currently the UK has empty ITU beds nationally, yet the model you quote says currently the ITU bed requirement for the UK is 12,000 and 10,000 ventilators, against 800 ITU beds available. It predicts 1200 deaths and actual deaths are 800. Quite simply on empirical facts the model is wrong.

Captain_Swoop 8th April 2020 02:46 PM

The Home Secretary has refused 4 times to attend Home Affairs Select Committee to discuss coronavirus.
Patel has repeatedly refused to appear in front of a select committee to discuss the coronavirus outbreak since January, she says will attend “towards the end of the month”.


ceptimus 8th April 2020 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by catsmate (Post 13049697)
Really? Name two.

Italy, Spain, France, Netherlands, ... There are lots more than two.

Quote:

Bollocks. Compare this and this, for example. The UK is projected to have more deaths than Germany, France and Italy combined.
66,000 death compared to 8,800, 20,000 and 15,000 respectively.
It's a nonsensical prediction. Given that Italy, France, and Spain already have more deaths than the UK, and have similar population sizes, there is no reason to believe that UK deaths will eventually total more than all of them added together.
Quote:


No. And again no. Every country is not on the same course.
As my post made clear. I specifically referenced some countries that are doing better ( Germany, South Korea ). Do you ever bother to actually read my posts before rushing out a negative comment?
Quote:

Actually we, in the sense of statisticians and epidemiologists have an excellent idea. But then you don't like experts do you?
:rolleyes:


:confused:
I've never said I don't like experts. And I clearly have a better grasp of epidemiology and statistics than you do.

I'm fed up with you attacking my posts for no good reason. I shall report any similar posts from you from now on.

Cheetah 8th April 2020 07:04 PM

South African former deputy minister of higher education, Mduduzi Manana posted a pic on social media of Communications Minister Stella Ndabeni-Abrahams and her family having lunch at his house.
:eek:
The president has suspended her for two months, one unpaid.

People are stupid.

The Atheist 9th April 2020 12:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cheetah (Post 13050016)
South African former deputy minister of higher education, Mduduzi Manana posted a pic on social media of Communications Minister Stella Ndabeni-Abrahams and her family having lunch at his house.
:eek:
The president has suspended her for two months, one unpaid.

People are stupid.

Good to see your government taking it seriously. The numbers out of RSA still look pretty good.

Nessie 9th April 2020 01:41 AM

I suppose, when you are already very unpopular, why the hell not?

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/c...nses-w0h5sx99l

"Coronavirus: MPs given extra £10,000 each for home working expenses"

Tolls 9th April 2020 01:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nessie (Post 13050152)
I suppose, when you are already very unpopular, why the hell not?

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/c...nses-w0h5sx99l

"Coronavirus: MPs given extra £10,000 each for home working expenses"

Eh?
I don't get paid anything extra for working from home!

Ten GRAND?!

Pixel42 9th April 2020 02:06 AM

Ah, but they have to buy lots of extra, um, electrons. Or something.

Captain_Swoop 9th April 2020 02:08 AM

"the great leveller" Prince Charles and the PM have had or got it - so this shows the democratic nature of C19. In fact the poorly paid, clustered together and 'frontline' medical, public service and shop workers are far more likely to die than the 1% profiting from the plague.

Good piece from.Emily Maitlis on Newsnight last night pointing this out.


"You do not survive the disease through fortitude and character, whatever the Prime Minister's colleagues will tell us, and the disease is not the great leveller"

dann 9th April 2020 02:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doghouse Reilly (Post 13049315)
Cnn reports today that the cdc is already beginning to revise downward their expected US death toll. Now saying 82,000.


It's always nice to have something to look forward to, isn't it?!
In the meantime in the real world: Coronavirus: US records highest death toll in single day (BBC World, April 8, 2020)

Darat 9th April 2020 02:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nessie (Post 13050152)
I suppose, when you are already very unpopular, why the hell not?

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/c...nses-w0h5sx99l

"Coronavirus: MPs given extra £10,000 each for home working expenses"


That seems sensible to me? If they have to buy a few new laptops for staff, printers and other costs they should be able to claim for them.

Darat 9th April 2020 02:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop (Post 13050172)
"the great leveller" Prince Charles and the PM have had or got it - so this shows the democratic nature of C19. In fact the poorly paid, clustered together and 'frontline' medical, public service and shop workers are far more likely to die than the 1% profiting from the plague.

Good piece from.Emily Maitlis on Newsnight last night pointing this out.


"You do not survive the disease through fortitude and character, whatever the Prime Minister's colleagues will tell us, and the disease is not the great leveller"


And we know that the likes of Charles and Johnson got it because they were not practicing the government’s guidelines.

Garrison 9th April 2020 03:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer (Post 13049206)
The Dyson Respirator seems to have gone a bit quiet. Aside from the issue of whether contracts might be directed to doners, I don't understand why at a time when huge numbers of respirators are needed as fast as possible we'd be looking at new designs from non medical companies rather than existing designs that have passed regulatory scrutiny. Is it just me or does anyone else feel there's a touch of Elon Musk's 'cave submarine' to all this?

At the same time Mercedes F1 team, which despite its name is based right here in the UK finished the CPAP device they were working on:

Mercedes, UCL make CPAP designs free in coronavirus response

Quote:

With CPAP devices in short supply in hospitals, Mercedes and UCL engineers took just under 100 hours to manufacturer its first device, while the Mark II has reduced oxygen consumption by up to 70% compared to the original version.
Meanwhile in the same time frame there has been as you point out nothing in the way of progress from Dyson.

Darat 9th April 2020 04:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garrison (Post 13050228)
At the same time Mercedes F1 team, which despite its name is based right here in the UK finished the CPAP device they were working on:

Mercedes, UCL make CPAP designs free in coronavirus response



Meanwhile in the same time frame there has been as you point out nothing in the way of progress from Dyson.


Of course not, that was a quick and dirty marketing campaign.

The Don 9th April 2020 04:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darat (Post 13050237)
Of course not, that was a quick and dirty marketing campaign.

That, and possibly an opportunity to cash in if they secured a contract without having a viable device.

Garrison 9th April 2020 05:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Don (Post 13050250)
That, and possibly an opportunity to cash in if they secured a contract without having a viable device.

Especially if they can get some government cash upfront to cover 'development costs'.

Captain_Swoop 9th April 2020 05:31 AM

Northamptonshire Police Chief Constable Nick Adderley has said his force will now strengthen the enforcement of coronavirus regulations.
People in the county could now face fines or a criminal record.
According to the police chief, a small number of people had been flouting the regulations with officers being "baited" by members of the public.
They may have to resort to more extreme measures such as road blocks and searching shopping trolleys should people continue to break the rules.


Searching shopping trolleys?
Are they now the food police too?

Darat 9th April 2020 05:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop (Post 13050291)
Northamptonshire Police Chief Constable Nick Adderley has said his force will now strengthen the enforcement of coronavirus regulations.
People in the county could now face fines or a criminal record.
According to the police chief, a small number of people had been flouting the regulations with officers being "baited" by members of the public.
They may have to resort to more extreme measures such as road blocks and searching shopping trolleys should people continue to break the rules.


Searching shopping trolleys?
Are they now the food police too?


Only meant to be shopping for essentials, but some stores don’t only sell food suspect it will be people shopping for non essentials. I felt a little bit guilty when I did a Tesco shop and picked up a container of plant food, even though I was food shopping for 2 at high risk people and myself!

Squeegee Beckenheim 9th April 2020 06:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darat (Post 13050302)
Only meant to be shopping for essentials, but some stores don’t only sell food suspect it will be people shopping for non essentials. I felt a little bit guilty when I did a Tesco shop and picked up a container of plant food, even though I was food shopping for 2 at high risk people and myself!

I don't think there's much of a problem in buying extra things while you're already in the shop. The problem is in going out to the shop for non-essentials.

I'm not sure that searching people's trollies is a good idea anyway. Who decides what is or is not an essential item? You say you bought plant food. But who is to say that looking after plants isn't good for your mental health at a time like this? There's got to be more to "essential items" than bread and butter.

Squeegee Beckenheim 9th April 2020 06:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop (Post 13050291)
Northamptonshire Police Chief Constable Nick Adderley has said his force will now strengthen the enforcement of coronavirus regulations.
People in the county could now face fines or a criminal record.
According to the police chief, a small number of people had been flouting the regulations with officers being "baited" by members of the public.
They may have to resort to more extreme measures such as road blocks and searching shopping trolleys should people continue to break the rules.


Searching shopping trolleys?
Are they now the food police too?

Last weekend, Manchester police had to shut down 500 house parties

Pixel42 9th April 2020 06:48 AM

I bought a bottle of Pimm's during my last essential shop. The police would have had to prise that from my cold dead hands.

Lithrael 9th April 2020 07:48 AM

Guess what else is non-essential? Yep abortion is now illegal in all of Texas.

https://www.npr.org/sections/coronav...onavirus-limit

Garrison 9th April 2020 08:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pixel42 (Post 13050365)
I bought a bottle of Pimm's during my last essential shop. The police would have had to prise that from my cold dead hands.

Acutally I think they decided that alcohol was an essential, and as has been said if you are out shopping for essentials and you decide to pick up a couple of other items fine. If the police find you with a shopping trolley full of nothing but booze them you might have problems, in more ways than one. ;)

Garrison 9th April 2020 08:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lithrael (Post 13050418)
Guess what else is non-essential? Yep abortion is now illegal in all of Texas.

https://www.npr.org/sections/coronav...onavirus-limit

It's amazing how in the US so much of the Covid-19 response seems to be about political point scoring.

Mojo 9th April 2020 08:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop (Post 13050291)
Northamptonshire Police Chief Constable Nick Adderley has said his force will now strengthen the enforcement of coronavirus regulations.
People in the county could now face fines or a criminal record.
According to the police chief, a small number of people had been flouting the regulations with officers being "baited" by members of the public.
They may have to resort to more extreme measures such as road blocks and searching shopping trolleys should people continue to break the rules.


Searching shopping trolleys?
Are they now the food police too?


England's coronavirus lockdown is lawful. Heavy-handed police enforcement isn't

Quote:

Contrary to some of the myths around, there is no definition of “reasonable excuse” to be found anywhere. The regulations merely give some examples of excursions that are presumed to be reasonable, including “to obtain basic necessities”, “to take exercise”, “to seek medical assistance”, “to provide care or assistance” and various other activities.

Importantly, there is no legal limit on the number of times a day that even these activities can be undertaken, no matter how many references are made to the “once a day rule” for exercise, shopping or anything else.

The police have no power to stop you and demand an explanation as to why you are away from your home, although common sense would dictate a courteous and cooperative response if asked such questions by an officer. Still less can officers insist on searching your shopping bags to decide whether any given item is a basic necessity or not (another undefined term but which specifically includes food and medical supplies).

P.J. Denyer 9th April 2020 09:25 AM

My wife volunteered for the NHS when the government announced the scheme, she was quickly accepted (not too old, former managing director, current clean police background check certificate) and she applied saying she'd do any job, at any time, at any local hospital, apparently a LOT of the applicants were very choosy. She's had five calls in the last 48 hours, and several more over the previous week since being accepted, repeatedly arranging work placements for her, then cancelling them. I get the feeling this was sprung on the NHS with no consideration of what the volunteers would actually be used for leaving NHS administrators will potential workers but no clear idea of what they can be given to do that won't put them, the patients or the NHS at risk (physical or legal). I could very well be wrong, no really, but I really get the imprssion this was an under thought out political soundbite that unexpectedly took off.

Darat 9th April 2020 09:39 AM

Same experience with me. The only thing I’ve said I’ll not do is transport people. That’s just me, not because of any risk just don’t want to have to do all the small talk!

Squeegee Beckenheim 9th April 2020 09:44 AM

The copper who made the announcement has now clarified that police will not be searching people's shopping

Arcade22 9th April 2020 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer (Post 13050523)
I could very well be wrong, no really, but I really get the imprssion this was an under thought out political soundbite that unexpectedly took off.

What were they expected to do? Collect the bodies of the dead and burn them in pits?

From what i can tell the problems in most countries that experience trouble with this disease cannot be solved by just throwing untrained, inexperienced and unequipped people at them because that's just going to help spread it even more.

It's like the idea that bicycle repair-shops are going to chip in and help build ventilators. It has a romantic, populist image to it with everyone helping out to fight this thing together just like in WW2. In reality quality-control and assurance mean that you can't just have anyone making parts to ventilators.

Pixel42 9th April 2020 11:44 AM

Boris Johnson is out of intensive care.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-52238276

Nessie 9th April 2020 12:24 PM

Nick Adderly is a classic example of how the police have been desperate to make themselves front and central to how the virus is being dealt with.

The Health Protection Regs are vague and the police have decided they will determine what is acceptable, based on government advice. But the police should police the law, not government advice.

Adderly is very prominent on twitter, along with many other police officer accounts that give out advice, that is often out of date or just plain wrong, which is hardly surprising as they are not medically trained and sad to say, often not that bright, even the Chief Constables.

After Nicola Sturgeon gave her first lockdown address, the first person to be interviewed was the head of the Scottish Police Federation :boggled:

I know doctors are busy at the moment, but it would have been far more effective to have had a doctor, speaking from a hospital, explaining why the lockdown was required.

People trust the NHS more than they trust the police. The NHS should be giving out advice on what is appropriate, not the police.

Arcade22 9th April 2020 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pixel42 (Post 13050706)
Boris Johnson is out of intensive care.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-52238276

They must have moved him to the morgue.

P.J. Denyer 9th April 2020 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcade22 (Post 13050656)
What were they expected to do? Collect the bodies of the dead and burn them in pits?

From what i can tell the problems in most countries that experience trouble with this disease cannot be solved by just throwing untrained, inexperienced and unequipped people at them because that's just going to help spread it even more.

It's like the idea that bicycle repair-shops are going to chip in and help build ventilators. It has a romantic, populist image to it with everyone helping out to fight this thing together just like in WW2. In reality quality-control and assurance mean that you can't just have anyone making parts to ventilators.

I think most people's understanding (certainly mine and my wife's) was that they would be doing routine, non clinical tasks such as making beds, spending time (and monitoring) old patients in for non corona related issues, making cups of tea, running messages, fetching and carrying, and by doing so free up people who do have necessary skills to help people. My mum was a hospital domestic back before they were outsourced cleaners and cooks, as they were part of the NHS then and ordered to the ward Matron they be called on to do other small jobs that basically needed someone to do but didn't require a nurse, and they did it. Then the nurses could do the things that needed a trained professional. With my wife's background she could possibly free up someone from at keast part of their paperwork who could be doing much better things with their time right now.

Arcade22 9th April 2020 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer (Post 13050827)
I think most people's understanding (certainly mine and my wife's) was that they would be doing routine, non clinical tasks such as making beds, spending time (and monitoring) old patients in for non corona related issues, making cups of tea, running messages, fetching and carrying, and by doing so free up people who do have necessary skills to help people.

All of that sounds like very good opportunities to spread the infection if you can't guarantee that the people doing it cannot spread it, which is the problem with the idea: ideally you can't have just anybody checking up on old people or making their beds, one needs to make sure that they have sufficient protective equipment and proper training to minimize the risk of transmitting the infection. Especially when it comes to the elderly.

That's why having everyone roll up their sleeves and help out in some community-wide effort is probably not a good idea, given the circumstances.

Planigale 9th April 2020 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer (Post 13050827)
I think most people's understanding (certainly mine and my wife's) was that they would be doing routine, non clinical tasks such as making beds, spending time (and monitoring) old patients in for non corona related issues, making cups of tea, running messages, fetching and carrying, and by doing so free up people who do have necessary skills to help people. My mum was a hospital domestic back before they were outsourced cleaners and cooks, as they were part of the NHS then and ordered to the ward Matron they be called on to do other small jobs that basically needed someone to do but didn't require a nurse, and they did it. Then the nurses could do the things that needed a trained professional. With my wife's background she could possibly free up someone from at keast part of their paperwork who could be doing much better things with their time right now.

Probably the biggest need is cleaning. Everything needs constant cleaning. Every time a trolley takes a patient to an x-ray or a wheel chair takes someone to the wards, it needs to be cleaned. Chairs in waiting areas. Desks, tables, any surface a virus might lurk on. That is the big need. We are trying to minimise actual patient facing exposure, so we volunteers are unlikely to have anything to do with patients.

So no chatting to patients in isolation, and currently you are more likely to be in isolation to keep the virus away from you than vice versa.

a_unique_person 9th April 2020 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garrison (Post 13050228)
At the same time Mercedes F1 team, which despite its name is based right here in the UK finished the CPAP device they were working on:



Mercedes, UCL make CPAP designs free in coronavirus response







Meanwhile in the same time frame there has been as you point out nothing in the way of progress from Dyson.

They can't decide on what stupid name to call it.

Arcade22 9th April 2020 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Planigale (Post 13050863)
Probably the biggest need is cleaning. Everything needs constant cleaning. Every time a trolley takes a patient to an x-ray or a wheel chair takes someone to the wards, it needs to be cleaned. Chairs in waiting areas. Desks, tables, any surface a virus might lurk on. That is the big need. We are trying to minimise actual patient facing exposure, so we volunteers are unlikely to have anything to do with patients.

So no chatting to patients in isolation, and currently you are more likely to be in isolation to keep the virus away from you than vice versa.

Shouldn't the hospitals, or the cleaning companies that work for them, just hire more cleaners instead of using volunteers?

Planigale 9th April 2020 11:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcade22 (Post 13050983)
Shouldn't the hospitals, or the cleaning companies that work for them, just hire more cleaners instead of using volunteers?

Arguably many of the volunteers will be people on furlough who are already being paid by the government to stay home.


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:36 AM.

Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2015-22, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.