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-   -   Covid-19 and Politics (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=342577)

dudalb 16th March 2020 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trebuchet (Post 13021734)
In my state, long-term scammer and now leading Republican candidate for governor Tim Eyman is planning a rally hoping 251 people will attend to "stick a finger in Inslee's eye", referring to the current governor.

Not surpriesed, since to many in the GOP Science is Fake News.

dudalb 16th March 2020 10:56 AM

ANd in the UK Boris is continuing to do, basically, nothing.
IMHO the UK is headed for catastrophe.

The Don 16th March 2020 11:10 AM

W.r.t Coronavirus, Brexit or both ?

Captain_Swoop 16th March 2020 11:27 AM

Trump Tweets

Everybody is so well unified and working so hard. It is a beautiful thing to see. They love our great Country. We will end up being stronger than ever before!

Just had a very good tele-conference with Nations’s Governors. Went very well. Cuomo of New York has to “do more”.

alfaniner 16th March 2020 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ulf Nereng (Post 13021172)
CureVac, a company based in Tubingen (Germany), is working with two other institutions there on a vaccine for Covid19. Apparently Trump has tried to get them to make it for USA, and only USA. German authorities up in arms about it.

(Personally, I'm not convinced about this story.)

Just wondering if that could be considered a quid pro quo. I would hope they have extensive documentation.

dudalb 16th March 2020 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Don (Post 13021876)
W.r.t Coronavirus, Brexit or both ?

Both..but I was talking about the Corona virus.
He is adapting the Ebenezer Scrooge C1p Policy..."Let them die, and decrease the surplus population".

GlennB 16th March 2020 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dudalb (Post 13021859)
ANd in the UK Boris is continuing to do, basically, nothing.
IMHO the UK is headed for catastrophe.

Cruel irony - our belongings are being removed back to the UK in early April (no restrictions on that, apparently) and we were planning to follow them and rent until our house here sells. No damn chance now, as our Belgian buyers will be stuck at home unable to travel over to sign contracts, and the notary and lawyers offices are closing down here anyway, at least for now.

We'll keep the bare bones of a home together here in Greece - which seems a damn sight safer than the UK - and manage just fine. We're stocking up just a little and aiming to isolate for a month or so, though the supplies of bog roll in the shops are totally normal ;)

dudalb 16th March 2020 03:29 PM

People in London will be painting red crosses on doors before this is over.

angrysoba 16th March 2020 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dudalb (Post 13022166)
People in London will be painting red crosses on doors before this is over.

Oh FFS!

The Don 17th March 2020 03:55 AM

Colour me surprised, the UK government's plan for car factories to build ventilators is a pie-in-the-sky as is their approach to pretty much everything else :rolleyes:

Quote:

"The idea that an engineering company can quickly manufacturer medical devices, and comply with the rules, is unrealistic because of the heavy burden of standards and regulations that need to be complied with," said Penlon's Mr Thompson.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-51914490

Captain_Swoop 17th March 2020 06:10 AM

Trump Tweets
Cuomo wants “all states to be treated the same.” But all states aren’t the same. Some are being hit hard by the Chinese Virus, some are being hit practically not at all. New York is a very big “hotspot”, West Virginia has, thus far, zero cases. Andrew, keep politics out of it...

The Don 17th March 2020 06:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop (Post 13022548)
Trump Tweets
Cuomo wants “all states to be treated the same.” But all states aren’t the same. Some are being hit hard by the Chinese Virus, some are being hit practically not at all. New York is a very big “hotspot”, West Virginia has, thus far, zero cases. Andrew, keep politics out of it...

Got to keep that re-brand going :rolleyes:

Captain_Swoop 17th March 2020 06:54 AM

Trump Tweets

Failing Michigan Governor must work harder and be much more proactive. We are pushing her to get the job done. I stand with Michigan

Federal Government is working very well with the Governors and State officials. Good things will happen! #KILLTHEVIRUS

alfaniner 17th March 2020 07:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop (Post 13022548)
Trump Tweets
Cuomo wants “all states to be treated the same.” But all states aren’t the same. Some are being hit hard by the Chinese Virus, some are being hit practically not at all. New York is a very big “hotspot”, West Virginia has, thus far, zero cases. Andrew, keep politics out of it...

Oh, the irony. :boggled:

dudalb 17th March 2020 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by angrysoba (Post 13022285)
Oh FFS!

it's called Humor, a reference to the Great Plague in London in 1666 where thos who had theplague had red crosses painted on their doors.

dudalb 17th March 2020 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Don (Post 13022471)
Colour me surprised, the UK government's plan for car factories to build ventilators is a pie-in-the-sky as is their approach to pretty much everything else :rolleyes:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-51914490

I have to disagee,this could work.
In WW2, a lot of US car manfacures switched to makiing airplanes very quickly.
If you think a bout what goes into a car motor, it makes sense to think they could make venitlators.
Iunderstand you harte the Tory government, but this is one thing worth looking into.

The Don 17th March 2020 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dudalb (Post 13022852)
I have to disagee,this could work.
In WW2, a lot of US car manfacures switched to makiing airplanes very quickly.
If you think a bout what goes into a car motor, it makes sense to think they could make venitlators.
Iunderstand you harte the Tory government, but this is one thing worth looking into.

The problem is that there isn't even an agreed design at this stage, much less a supply chain both of which were in place and the switch would still take months.

A car assembly line is nothing like an electronics assembly line.

Darat 17th March 2020 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Don (Post 13022872)
The problem is that there isn't even an agreed design at this stage, much less a supply chain both of which were in place and the switch would still take months.

A car assembly line is nothing like an electronics assembly line.

And unless you want something as crude as what we would have been able to build in WW2 you just can't compare the two events.

alfaniner 17th March 2020 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dudalb (Post 13022852)
I have to disagee,this could work.
In WW2, a lot of US car manfacures switched to makiing airplanes very quickly.
If you think a bout what goes into a car motor, it makes sense to think they could make venitlators.
Iunderstand you harte the Tory government, but this is one thing worth looking into.

I always read your posts and, nothing personal, but you might want to do some proofreading before you hit Submit. Those little squiggly underlines should help. Sometimes it's almost impossible to parse what you are trying to type.

ponderingturtle 17th March 2020 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dudalb (Post 13022852)
I have to disagee,this could work.
In WW2, a lot of US car manfacures switched to makiing airplanes very quickly.
If you think a bout what goes into a car motor, it makes sense to think they could make venitlators.
Iunderstand you harte the Tory government, but this is one thing worth looking into.

Maybe though if they get it a bit wrong and pop a few lungs no big deal anyway.

I mean I get it you are throwing all regulation for medical equipment right out the window and not caring who it lands on. Like how funny recalls of artificial joints are. Just one little problem and suddenly people try to make it seem like a big deal.

ponderingturtle 17th March 2020 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darat (Post 13022881)
And unless you want something as crude as what we would have been able to build in WW2 you just can't compare the two events.

Just hook a Merlin engine up to their lungs that will solve it.

Captain_Swoop 17th March 2020 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dudalb (Post 13022852)
I have to disagee,this could work.
In WW2, a lot of US car manfacures switched to makiing airplanes very quickly.
If you think a bout what goes into a car motor, it makes sense to think they could make venitlators.
Iunderstand you harte the Tory government, but this is one thing worth looking into.

Which car factories and how quickly?

What materials and processes were involved?

What components were they making?

How does that compare to a modern car factory switching to making ventilators?

Captain_Swoop 17th March 2020 12:33 PM

Labour's 2019 spending plans
Abolish university tuition fees £13bn
Universal basic income £4.5bn
4 day working week £85bn
NHS spend £7bn
National social care service£10bn

Tories compared it to"flying unicorns"

Today the chancellor found £330bn in his back pocket.

Captain_Swoop 17th March 2020 12:53 PM

Why would anyone be asking car factories to convert to medical electronics factories?
Why not just get existing electronics manufacturers and sub contractors to make them?

Captain_Swoop 17th March 2020 12:59 PM

Trump in January: Coronavirus is 'not at all' a pandemic

Trump now: 'I felt it was a pandemic long before it was called a pandemic'

Darat 17th March 2020 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop (Post 13023001)
Which car factories and how quickly?



What materials and processes were involved?



What components were they making?



How does that compare to a modern car factory switching to making ventilators?

I wonder what some folk think a "car factory" is actually like. It's a as highly optimised as possible production line to turn out a car.

Sent from my SM-T710 using Tapatalk

The Don 17th March 2020 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop (Post 13023019)
Why would anyone be asking car factories to convert to medical electronics factories?
Why not just get existing electronics manufacturers and sub contractors to make them?

Because that's what they think happened during WWIi, the Conservatives' only point of reference for success :rolleyes:

Captain_Swoop 17th March 2020 02:08 PM

Trump Tweets

The world is at war with a hidden enemy. WE WILL WIN!

Captain_Swoop 17th March 2020 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Don (Post 13023089)
Because that's what they think happened during WWIi, the Conservatives' only point of reference for success :rolleyes:

I know in the UK all the car factories were busy turning out as many motor vehicles as they could.
After the war the Bristol Aircraft company famous for it's Fighter bomber started making cars and still does.
But they couldn't make medical equipment.

crescent 17th March 2020 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Don (Post 13023089)
Because that's what they think happened during WWIi, the Conservatives' only point of reference for success :rolleyes:

My impression is that it took WWII factories some months to retool in order to switch from cars to airplanes, and again to switch from one airplane to another.

I suppose there might be value in looking at making some sort of switch like that, but it may take too long to prevent the worst of the hurt.

dann 17th March 2020 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop (Post 13023117)
Trump Tweets

The world is at war with a hidden enemy. WE WILL WIN!


The world is united! Yeah, right! While trying to buy the vaccine so the Germans won't have it ...

When the actual world is not united, an imaginary threat to the whole world is always useful if you want to make people forget about the actual conflicts of interest. In this case, people who don't have health care and the people who turn a buck selling health care to the people who can afford it.
Ronald Reagan had a somewhat similar idea when he started his project 'Let's disenfranchise the poor even more.'

Quote:

Perhaps we need some outside, universal threat to make us recognize this common bond. I occasionally think how quickly our differences worldwide would vanish if we were facing an alien threat from outside this world.
President Ronald Reagan Thought About Alien Invasion Constantly (Curiosity, Jan. 31, 2018)

angrysoba 17th March 2020 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dudalb (Post 13022850)
it's called Humor,

On the seventh or eighth retelling the joke wears a bit thin...:rolleyes:

The Don 18th March 2020 09:04 AM

According to Russia:

Quote:

Meanwhile, Russia says it’s conducted well over 100,000 tests with only 147 positive results.

Officially, that’s down to the country’s "timely" intervention when the epidemic first emerged in neighbouring China, with a clear suggestion that Europe somehow messed things up.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/worl...ost_type=share

Pull the other one, it's got bells on :rolleyes:

The Don 18th March 2020 09:49 AM

Boris Johnson using the same kind of rhetoric as Donald Trump :mad:

Quote:

UK Prime Minister Boris Johnson has posted an upbeat message to the country about coronavirus.

"This enemy can be deadly, but it is also beatable - and we know how to beat it," the message reads.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/worl...ost_type=share

Mader Levap 18th March 2020 10:07 AM

Seeing russian numbers I conclude they lie even more than chinese.

angrysoba 18th March 2020 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Don (Post 13023767)
Boris Johnson using the same kind of rhetoric as Donald Trump :mad:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/worl...ost_type=share

There's nothing objectionable about saying that, is there?

If he was talking about Chinese viruses and hoaxes and how he so too could be a doctor and knows all about it then I would agree with you.

But from what I can see they are saying at all times that they are going with what the scientists say.

There is also a kind of "dog that didn't bark" evidence that most of the opposition parties and the Public Health bodies of each country in the UK is behind the decisions that are being made.

Planigale 18th March 2020 11:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Don (Post 13022471)
Colour me surprised, the UK government's plan for car factories to build ventilators is a pie-in-the-sky as is their approach to pretty much everything else :rolleyes:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-51914490

From this article,
Quote:

"The idea that an engineering company can quickly manufacturer medical devices, and comply with the rules, is unrealistic because of the heavy burden of standards and regulations that need to be complied with," said Penlon's Mr Thompson."
The case seems to be based on the paperwork involved not the engineering. Since we may need to ramp up for some time (a year) as will all the rest of the world and we may not be able to rely on China for manufacturing we probably do need to be outsourcing manufacturing to other companies. Present manufacturers doubling output is probably no where near enough for the world demand.

As the article said it may be worth looking at older simpler models to make initially, the more sophisticated ventilators can be used on the sickest.

The Don 19th March 2020 01:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Planigale (Post 13024626)
From this article,

The case seems to be based on the paperwork involved not the engineering. Since we may need to ramp up for some time (a year) as will all the rest of the world and we may not be able to rely on China for manufacturing we probably do need to be outsourcing manufacturing to other companies. Present manufacturers doubling output is probably no where near enough for the world demand.

As the article said it may be worth looking at older simpler models to make initially, the more sophisticated ventilators can be used on the sickest.

There's no escaping the fact that car factories are designed to manufacture cars as efficiently as possible. They're wholly unsuitable for the manufacture of ventilators even if there was an agreed ventilator design (there isn't), the employees were suitably skilled to make them (they aren't), the automated assembly line was suitably programmed to make ventilators (it isn't) and the supply chain was in place to provide the components for the manufacture of the ventilators (it isn't).

It's been a while since I worked in manufacturing (Mullard Colour Tubes in Durham back in the 1980s) but even back then retooling for the production of a different model of cathode ray tube would take weeks much less converting the factory to make something completely different and, more importantly in this context, converting it back a few weeks later when the ventilator crisis is over. During the war, the expectation was that the new factories (Captain Swoop was quite right to point out my error in claiming that car factories were turned over to the production of aircraft) would be producing for years.

It is possible that a small-scale general engineering company, especially one which specialises in small scale or prototype manufacture and which has a highly-skilled workforce of "artisans" may be able to quickly turn its hand to the manufacture of simple ventilators, but that's not what the government is/was proposing.

Instead what they did was, as they usually do, make a grand announcement which is supposed to sound good but which has no practical benefit. Instead it relies on a mis-remembered fragment of our national myth "During the War, car factories immediately switched to building Spitfires" and a fundamental misunderstanding of modern manufacturing.

In this way it's as ridiculous as claiming that post-Brexit component shortages could simply be overcome by 3D printing them.

Darat 19th March 2020 02:18 AM

It is yet again the comfortable class having no idea about how their level of comfort is maintained. Their level of understanding is "factories make things, I want more ventilators, a ventilator is a thing, factories make things" problem solved. This is because all they do is tell someone that something needs to be done and it happens for them.

The Don 19th March 2020 02:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Don (Post 13024664)
It is possible that a small-scale general engineering company, especially one which specialises in small scale or prototype manufacture and which has a highly-skilled workforce of "artisans" may be able to quickly turn its hand to the manufacture of simple ventilators, but that's not what the government is/was proposing.

I've been thinking about this a little more and perhaps classic vehicle/plane/boat restorers, boutique audio manufacturers and electrical and electronic repair shop workers might have the right combination of skills.

Of course this would still require the production and certification of a suitable design or designs for these people to build and the creation of a supply chain so that suitable components are available for the manufacture - and ongoing maintenance of ventilators.

Of course the government isn't working on this, instead they're expressing a vague hope that British Industry will magically, schmagically solve the problems on their behalf. This wasn't what happened during the war.

Once again, it's pointless grandstanding and wishful, magical, thinking in the face of a national crisis - absolutely the opposite of how Britain responded to WWII.


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