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-   -   Covid-19 and Politics (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=342577)

quadraginta 12th May 2020 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mojo (Post 13085228)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop (Post 13085031)
“Stay alert by working at home if you can”
Because working at work makes you lazy and not likely to be as alert?
What does this garbage mean??!


“Your country needs lerts.”


Exactly. This new "Stay Alert" slogan is begging the question.

It assumes they were lerts to begin with.

quadraginta 12th May 2020 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Don (Post 13085863)
T<snip>

The Welsh government has also been clear that people should not come from England to exercise in Wales:

<snip>


This is a clear example of government overreach.

It should be left up to each individual whale to decide whether or not they want people coming to exercise in them.

quadraginta 12th May 2020 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop (Post 13087103)
In the last 24 hours government ministers have:

Made it illegal to drive to Wales
Stated, wrongly, that Covid-19 is in the water supply
Made it easier to see other people's parents than your own
Issued guidance about business that the London Chamber of Commerce have instructed us to ignore
Issued guidance about lockdown that 3 of the 4 nations in the Union have instructed us to ignore
Released advice experts were not given a chance to review and approve
Said the announcement had to be on Sunday so it could start Monday then said they meant Wednesday
Said we must go to work then said we must not travel to work
Blamed the public for not understanding them
Appeared on TV to explain the rules, got them wrong, and had to be corrected by Piers Morgan
Appeared in Parliament to explain the rules, got them wrong, and had to be corrected by the opposition


The most unkindest cut of all.

Darat 13th May 2020 12:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer (Post 13088012)
I don't want to jump to conclusions, but I'm starting to think that maybe putting the country in the hands of an incredibly lazy after dinner speaker with a history of lies and spectacularly expensive failures might not have been fantastically smart after all.


You may be onto something....

Captain_Swoop 13th May 2020 02:10 AM

This is a direct result of Boris Johnson's decree on Sunday. A full bus, absolutely no social distancing. All the sacrifices we've made in the past 2 months thrown down the pan by a reckless government totally out of their depth.
Quote Tweet

SkyNews
@SkyNews
Buses in London are packed with passengers this morning, despite the govt asking people to avoid public transport if possible when the #coronavirus lockdown eased.

(vid in link)

https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1260465038881685505

Captain_Swoop 13th May 2020 02:23 AM

Viz top tips: Readers! Spend quality time with your family by encouraging them to put their house up for sale, then visiting them as prospective buyers.

Or hire them as cleaners or child minders.

wobs 13th May 2020 02:38 AM

Another commentator points out that the changes shift from the blame from the Government, onto people for when it goes wrong.

Also a bit of advice for the opposition:
Quote:

Instead, what opposition leaders must do is speak from a different story, what I call the Citizen story, and as such focus their message differently.

In the Citizen story, Covid19 is more like a force of nature, in the face of which we are all in the same boat and must all work together, than a war. We have all been part of a collective effort to adapt and protect one another, rather than government stepping in to rescue us. The right role for government in this story is to equip and enable us: to share as much information as possible and as much power as possible, so that we can work together where we live to find a new and sustainable normal.
https://medium.com/@jonjalex/johnson...t-d336cae96348

Scientists for EU also has a good take on it, analysing the changes they have made.

Captain_Swoop 13th May 2020 03:08 AM

Nick Ferrari on LBC making out teachers are lazy and just don't want to work, not opening schools is just an excuse to skive.

Captain_Swoop 13th May 2020 03:11 AM

First it was follow the science, then it was follow the scientist that made them look bad, and finally the face mask slipped, they went back to following the money.

Hence: "If you can't work from home you should go to work."

wobs 13th May 2020 03:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop (Post 13088453)
First it was follow the science, then it was follow the scientist that made them look bad, and finally the face mask slipped, they went back to following the money.

Hence: "If you can't work from home you should go to work."

But the furlough scheme has been extended. Surely, if the buses are crowded, or their work is unsafe, people should be allowed to stay at home on furlough?

Captain_Swoop 13th May 2020 03:46 AM

What if the boss tells you to come to work?

wobs 13th May 2020 03:49 AM

If you want to use technology to combat the virus via software, Taiwan is the way to go:
https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/ar...-data-tracking

Quote:

In effect, the whole country voluntarily partnered with the government to create a protean network of databases in which information flows both from the bottom up and from the top down. To make new online and offline tools for fighting the virus, “hacktivists,” developers and citizens have been collaborating with the government on vTaiwan, a sort of online democracy town hall and brainstorming site. One tool, for example, prevented a run on face masks by mapping where the stocks were and allocating them wherever they were most needed. By involving people in the solutions, rather than just dictating policies to them, the process is transparent and inspires trust, even civic pride.

Darat 13th May 2020 03:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop (Post 13088416)
This is a direct result of Boris Johnson's decree on Sunday. A full bus, absolutely no social distancing. All the sacrifices we've made in the past 2 months thrown down the pan by a reckless government totally out of their depth.
Quote Tweet

SkyNews
@SkyNews
Buses in London are packed with passengers this morning, despite the govt asking people to avoid public transport if possible when the #coronavirus lockdown eased.

(vid in link)

https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1260465038881685505

I've just realised that they (the government) have no idea why people use public transport, especially in a city like London, they really do not understand it is not from preference* it is from necessity. How did they think all these people could "avoid" the only way they have to get to their place of work?!

ETA: And in three weeks we can all be shocked once again when we learn it is still the "low skilled" workers who are dying at a higher percentage


(*well I am sure there will be a very tiny minority of people that do use it as a preference)

Captain_Swoop 13th May 2020 04:59 AM

PMQs Starmer pours scorn on Johnson’s claim that we shouldn’t read anything into Downing St dropping international comparison death charts just after UK became the worst in Europe.

Mojo 13th May 2020 06:03 AM

Jacob Rees-Mogg tells MPs to 'set example' and return to Commons. I wonder which Tube line he travels in on.

Captain_Swoop 13th May 2020 08:00 AM

Shocked that the PM who was sacked from The Times for lying and sacked from The Spectator for lying and then did quite a lot of other lying has been asked to correct that stuff he said in PMQs because he was [ checks notes ] lying

Mr Fied 13th May 2020 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop (Post 13088416)
This is a direct result of Boris Johnson's decree on Sunday. A full bus, absolutely no social distancing. All the sacrifices we've made in the past 2 months thrown down the pan by a reckless government totally out of their depth.
Quote Tweet

SkyNews
@SkyNews
Buses in London are packed with passengers this morning, despite the govt asking people to avoid public transport if possible when the #coronavirus lockdown eased.

(vid in link)

https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1260465038881685505

Also, we still have free bus travel with centre door loading in London. This means the driver has no control over how many passengers are boarding the bus.

We have been told to radio in when the bus has more than 10(single deck) or 20(double deck) passengers on board, or if one particular stop has heavy loading.

So, you radio in and are told, "thank you driver, we have made a note of that, keep your social distancing as best you can, try and stay safe and carry on for now".

In terms of deaths per 1000 head of staff, we are up there with care workers and NHS staff, but we have been given masks this week so we'll be ok surely?

Captain_Swoop 13th May 2020 10:13 AM

87,063 tests for coronavirus were carried out on Tuesday.
The target, set by the Health Secretary Matt Hancock last month, was for 100,000 tests per day in the UK.
The PM now says the UK "will go up to 200,000 by the end of the month".
There is some confusion about these figures which the Department for Health and Social Care says refers not to tests but to testing capacity.

P.J. Denyer 13th May 2020 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mojo (Post 13088588)
Jacob Rees-Mogg tells MPs to 'set example' and return to Commons. I wonder which Tube line he travels in on.

It's his palanquin bearers I feel sorry for.

quadraginta 13th May 2020 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer (Post 13089075)
It's his palanquin bearers I feel sorry for.


At least they are in open air. That should help some.

They ought to consider themselves privileged.

The Atheist 13th May 2020 07:33 PM

NZ's budget being given today - $50B is the cost of the virus for the country.

We're lucky in both having smashed it early and having a very low debt/GDP rate in 2019.

Other countries may not fare so well.

EHocking 13th May 2020 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop (Post 13088933)
87,063 tests for coronavirus were carried out on Tuesday.
The target, set by the Health Secretary Matt Hancock last month, was for 100,000 tests per day in the UK.
The PM now says the UK "will go up to 200,000 by the end of the month".
There is some confusion about these figures which the Department for Health and Social Care says refers not to tests but to testing capacity.

Is that capacity to take a sample or capacity to analyse the test in the UK instead of having to send it overseas because UK labs aren’t capable of doing so?

Tolls 14th May 2020 12:05 AM

This really must be the End of Days when I find myself agreeing with Peter Bloody Bone of all people.

https://twitter.com/Channel4News/sta...57779304017923

Strange times indeed...

Captain_Swoop 14th May 2020 03:54 AM

Tory MP Maria Caulfield shared a doctored video from a far right site of Keir Starmer apparently sympathising with 'Grooming Gangs' and Jimmy Saville and explaining why when he was head of the CPS he wouldn't prosecute them. She claimed it showed the 'True face of the labour Leader'

Rather than take it down and apologise she has deleted her entire Twitter account.
Nadine Dorries also posted the same video but removed it without comment or apology.

He's got them rattled.

The Don 14th May 2020 06:06 AM

Russia has the second highest number of Coronavirus cases (>250,000) and yet comparatively few deaths (<2,500).

How has this been achieved ? Excellent testing and tracing to catch the disease early ? Innovative treatments from a world-class healthcare system ? The extraordinary robustness of the Russian people ?

Nope, being creative with the numbers:

Quote:

Moscow's department of health says it does not include most deaths of Covid-19 patients in official statistics because they had other potentially lethal illnesses. St Petersburg has reported an unexplained spike in deaths from pneumonia - five-and-a-half times the usual number and 10 times the official number of Covid-19 deaths in the city. Meduza, an independent Russian website, says official statistics are doctored and Russians are effectively “not allowed to die from coronavirus”.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/worl...ost_type=share

I expect the UK to start to adopt a similar approach to Coronavirus reporting.

Darat 14th May 2020 06:08 AM

Does anyone not think we will see a huge spike in infections, hospitalisations and deaths within the next three weeks in any areas of the UK in which people have to use public transport?

Darat 14th May 2020 06:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Don (Post 13089997)
Russia has the second highest number of Coronavirus cases (>250,000) and yet comparatively few deaths (<2,500).

How has this been achieved ? Excellent testing and tracing to catch the disease early ? Innovative treatments from a world-class healthcare system ? The extraordinary robustness of the Russian people ?

Nope, being creative with the numbers:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/worl...ost_type=share

I expect the UK to start to adopt a similar approach to Coronavirus reporting.

You really need to send that to Johnson to help him work out the figures he wants to release.

KDLarsen 14th May 2020 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Fied (Post 13088819)
Also, we still have free bus travel with centre door loading in London. This means the driver has no control over how many passengers are boarding the bus.

We have been told to radio in when the bus has more than 10(single deck) or 20(double deck) passengers on board, or if one particular stop has heavy loading.

So, you radio in and are told, "thank you driver, we have made a note of that, keep your social distancing as best you can, try and stay safe and carry on for now".

In terms of deaths per 1000 head of staff, we are up there with care workers and NHS staff, but we have been given masks this week so we'll be ok surely?

Really, only 10 / 20 per bus? The smallest in our fleet, the Mercedes-Benz Sprinter City 77, which normally holds a max of around 20 (I haven't driven them in ages, as the routes it serves are not on my schedule) has been rated to hold 10. Our medium size busses (12-13.7 meter) can have between 25 and 30, and our large articulated busses (18 metre) can have 40 - though we rarely get anywhere near that, as it's only deployed on routes that serve the large shopping mall in town (only just reopened) and the university (still closed).

I've only once come close to calling in that the bus was full, but I knew that the rest of the route was mainly deboarding, so I didn't bother with it.

We haven't been supplied with masks, instead we've been given a litre of electrolysed water to clean our hands with as necessary, and the closest row of seats to the driver has been blocked off. We also no longer sell cash tickets, and the IT technicians have been busy reconfiguring the travel card system, so passengers no longer have to use the card reader next to the driver to add more passengers to their card.

Thankfully no driver at the company I drive for (Keolis) has been exposed at work, with only a few employees having had to quarantine for various reasons.

KDLarsen 14th May 2020 04:08 PM

Oh, and the Burgfrieden in Danish politics are showing a few more signs of cracking. A week ago, a further reopening was agreed upon after negotiations between the various political parties. However on Sunday the Danish health authorities announced changed regulations on social distancing, reducing it from 2 meters to 1.

This led opposition MP's to ask the PM, who has very much made a point of presenting herself as a hands-on leader in this situation, if she was aware that the change was coming, and if so, why she hadn't informed them during the negotiations. Their argument being that it would have meant a change in priorities over which sectors could reopen. The PM denied know about the impending change to the social distancing distance.

However, she won't have helped herself, as this evening, ahead of a televised debate with the political party leaders, she announced that the Danish health authorities had given the green light for a further ease of restrictions, and that she would invite the party leaders to further negotiations - and then she immediately presented her ideas for which sectors could reopen, forcing the other party leaders to play catchup.

Captain_Swoop 14th May 2020 05:02 PM

Well, the social distancing has gone out of the window. Our back street was full of people sat in the sun and drinking for most of the day, there were even a couple of BBQs on the go. People brought out rugs to sit on . Same onDale Street next over where it backs on to Zetland.

Madness.

The Don 14th May 2020 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop (Post 13090688)
Well, the social distancing has gone out of the window. Our back street was full of people sat in the sun and drinking for most of the day, there were even a couple of BBQs on the go. People brought out rugs to sit on . Same onDale Street next over where it backs on to Zetland.

Madness.

Perfect :rolleyes:

This will lead to a spike in cases, which will demonstrate that social distancing is now ineffective so there's no point in continuing with it. ;)

McHrozni 14th May 2020 10:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Don (Post 13090886)
Perfect :rolleyes:

This will lead to a spike in cases, which will demonstrate that social distancing is now ineffective so there's no point in continuing with it. ;)

Meanwhile ...

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-h...-idUSKBN22R02B

McHrozni

AnonyMoose 14th May 2020 11:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Don (Post 13090886)
Perfect :rolleyes:

This will lead to a spike in cases, which will demonstrate that social distancing is now ineffective so there's no point in continuing with it. ;)


Yup. The warm sunny weather is upon us.

One of our neighbours across the street has had 3 house parties in the last two weeks. Apparently, they're using their monthly Canadian Emergency Response Benefit (CERB) funds to throw parties and bbqs for all their pals.

Not working? Living on taxfree $2000/month government relief funds for a few months? Pfft, no biggie... throw a party. On a Wednesday. Until 4am.

Weeeeeeeeee!

The Don 14th May 2020 11:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by McHrozni (Post 13090906)

IMO the UK can't really claim to have had "Full Lockdown" like some other EU countries because:
  • We've been able to go out for exercise
  • We haven't had the "Show us your papers" type enforcement of essential movement
  • Adherence to the rules has been variable. The stories of 60 person house parties have made the headlines but there's been an awful lot of people congregating in gardens, popping around to neighbours and socialising in supermarkets without adequate distancing

While many other countries have been on a full calorie control diet, we in the UK have skipped a couple of snacks and are surprised that we haven't lost the same amount of weight.

McHrozni 15th May 2020 12:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Don (Post 13090931)
IMO the UK can't really claim to have had "Full Lockdown" like some other EU countries because:

FTFY :(

Quote:

  • We've been able to go out for exercise
  • We haven't had the "Show us your papers" type enforcement of essential movement
  • Adherence to the rules has been variable. The stories of 60 person house parties have made the headlines but there's been an awful lot of people congregating in gardens, popping around to neighbours and socialising in supermarkets without adequate distancing

While many other countries have been on a full calorie control diet, we in the UK have skipped a couple of snacks and are surprised that we haven't lost the same amount of weight.
Adhrence is the key, I think. It doesn't matter what strict rules you pass if the populace fails to follow them and you're unable to enforce them. Chinese measures were draconian, I'm not even talking about drones that scolded you. By some accounts they welded entrances into appartment buildings shut. That just wouldn't fly in a democratic society, for fire safety if nothing else.

Unless you're already a police state you simply don't have the infrastructure ready to force the populace to comply. You don't have enough personnel and those that you do have aren't willing to enforce the harsh measures against their own friends and neighbors. That's why clear communication of the scale of the problem and a mature attitude of the populace are the key to fighting off the epidemic.

UK flunked on all levels of course. The best you can say about BJ and many Brits is that Americans have turned out wores by far.

McHrozni

Vixen 15th May 2020 12:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop (Post 13088933)
87,063 tests for coronavirus were carried out on Tuesday.
The target, set by the Health Secretary Matt Hancock last month, was for 100,000 tests per day in the UK.
The PM now says the UK "will go up to 200,000 by the end of the month".
There is some confusion about these figures which the Department for Health and Social Care says refers not to tests but to testing capacity.


Boris said that to wind up Matt Hancock - for he is being set up to be the fall guy - and Matt has lately been seen with a face like thunder, a man burning with rage, sitting alongside in the House of Commons.

Haha, the Nasty Party in full swing, with Party Chairman Brady demanding to see Boris and Boris being ordered never to be alone with Brady. No sign of Priti Patel lately and she must have been chomping at the bit to shut the borders and being fobbed off.

Vixen 15th May 2020 12:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mojo (Post 13088588)
Jacob Rees-Mogg tells MPs to 'set example' and return to Commons. I wonder which Tube line he travels in on.

Can you imagine being in lockdown with Moggy and his sprogs and insufferable wife. Expect baby number seven early next year...? Result of lounging around and boredom.

Kids being made to do schoolwork five hours a day and watch online matins and vespers.

McHrozni 15th May 2020 12:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop (Post 13088933)
87,063 tests for coronavirus were carried out on Tuesday.
The target, set by the Health Secretary Matt Hancock last month, was for 100,000 tests per day in the UK.
The PM now says the UK "will go up to 200,000 by the end of the month".
There is some confusion about these figures which the Department for Health and Social Care says refers not to tests but to testing capacity.

UK is not the only country with wildly unachievable goals.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-52651651

China declared everyone in Wuhan would be tested in two weeks. That's nearly 1,000,000 tests daily. Their capacity is perhaps 100,000 tests a day at best and that's probably using the resources of the entire nation, or close to it.

It turns out ramping out testing capacity is not as easy as pouring money into it. You need skilled people, advanced machinery you can't make in a chop shop and reagents you can't cook up in a kitchen. You need all three and finding any of the three is difficult. I have the basic necessary knowledge of the procedure and could probably learn it within a month or so, even though my line of work is profoundly different nowadays. It's not something you can just throw money at to solve.

McHrozni

Vixen 15th May 2020 12:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Don (Post 13089997)
Russia has the second highest number of Coronavirus cases (>250,000) and yet comparatively few deaths (<2,500).

How has this been achieved ? Excellent testing and tracing to catch the disease early ? Innovative treatments from a world-class healthcare system ? The extraordinary robustness of the Russian people ?

Nope, being creative with the numbers:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/worl...ost_type=share

I expect the UK to start to adopt a similar approach to Coronavirus reporting.

It already has: the daily country comparison chart has vanished and are still refusing to include all figures, which according to the FT tops 50K excess deaths and 60K, according to Piers Morgan. The statisticians at the ONS have rapped the government's knuckles for misrepresenting its statistics.

So now lockdown is being eased from four, to the next level 3, when daily infections remain at over 3,000. Shurely shome mishtake...?

I predict that in two weeks from now - let's say month end - there will be another spike and rise in infections, deaths and hospital beds.

Vixen 15th May 2020 12:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop (Post 13090688)
Well, the social distancing has gone out of the window. Our back street was full of people sat in the sun and drinking for most of the day, there were even a couple of BBQs on the go. People brought out rugs to sit on . Same onDale Street next over where it backs on to Zetland.

Madness.

According to the deputy chief medical officer,* you can't catch the virus outdoors or at packed sporting events. In any case, it is 'just a heavy cold'.

*aka a Boris fan hoping for New Years honours.


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