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-   -   Covid-19 and Politics (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=342577)

P.J. Denyer 4th June 2020 01:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop (Post 13112661)
Andrea Leadsom suggested that remote voting could mean "your 6-year old voting for fun" or someone could "press the wrong button"

So, in case someone votes the 'wrong 'way by accident or a 6 year old votes for fun, we’re going to take votes away from hundreds of MPs and representation away from millions of people.

Didn't Rishi Sunak 'accidentally' vote against the plan to gut British agriculture in person?

P.J. Denyer 4th June 2020 01:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcade22 (Post 13112676)
All of this traditionalist posturing is just a smokescreen to hide how empty and completely pointless yet time consuming most of the British parliamentary procedures really are Boris' answers to questions are. That is why the arguments are so bad.

FTFY

Mojo 4th June 2020 01:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop (Post 13112499)
Alok Sharma self-isolating and has been tested for Coronavirus.
He began feeling unwell in the chamber today, spokesperson says.

Which begs the question who's going to call our "world-beating" contact tracers and phone everyone he's been near (The Cabinet) and tell them to self isolate for 14 days???

It wouldn't surprise me if they all went on holiday to Barnard Castle together.


After the last few PMQs Boris might be glad of a couple of weeks of isolation.

P.J. Denyer 4th June 2020 02:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mojo (Post 13113167)
After the last few PMQs Boris might be glad of a couple of weeks of isolation.


Prorogue Parliament
Dissolve Parliament for an early election
Christmas
Half February on holiday
Off sick
Baby
Whitsun break

Yeah why not. I think he's going for the 'fewest PMQs' record anyway.

The Don 4th June 2020 04:04 AM

The travel industry is up in arms about the proposed quarantine:

Quote:

More concern about UK quarantine rules - we heard from Ryanair earlier.

Now, the boss of the UK's biggest airport services company Swissport has warned the measure could deliver a "killer blow" to the travel sector.

From 8 June all passengers arriving in the UK must self-isolate for 14 days.

Swissport chief executive Jason Holt said the plan would deter people from travelling and put ground staff jobs at risk as a result.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/worl...ost_type=share

I guess it comes down to whether ground crew jobs are more important than lives.

And finally:

Quote:

Speaking to the BBC's Today programme, he said: "If it's so important and it's so relevant to the virus, and we all want the country to be safe, why wasn't this done in March? That's why everybody's quite confused on this."
It wasn't done in March because the UK government has never been "steered by the science" and instead has lurched from promoting/hoping for herd immunity and suppressing the disease to stop the NHS from being overwhelmed. It's also like a cushion, it bears the impression of the last person to sit on it and so changes its mind regularly about what course of action to adopt with regard to the chosen strategy. They're also feckless and lazy and because not implementing quarantine is easier than implementing it, they chose that option. :mad:

McHrozni 4th June 2020 04:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Don (Post 13113248)
The travel industry is up in arms about the proposed quarantine:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/worl...ost_type=share

I guess it comes down to whether ground crew jobs are more important than lives.

There are alternatives to mandatory quarantene.

First of all, it can be cut to two days, followed by a test. If the test is negative you're free to go. This obviously requires free testing capacity UK lacks, but could perhaps be mitigated with saliva antigen tests. These work just like antibody tests, but look for the virus antigen. They aren't as reliable as RT-PCR, but are about ten times cheaper to perform, require minimal equipment and simple training. They can be done in basically unlimited volume. Saliva is comparible to a nasolaryx swab as a virus donor. It's not ideal but it might be good enough for the summer. The virus is less contageous in warm and sunny weather, after all.

Second of all, you can couple that to a list of safe destinations. If you spend holidays in a destination that has been determined to be Covid-19 free, then you don't need to treat that person in the same way as you'd treat an arrival from Brazil.

Right now I suspect there are two stronger factors at play. The first is BJ might be inclined to maintain the holiday pounds in UK for the season, to help the domestic economy. Beggar thy neighbor is a tactic dear to him. The second issue is that right now, disease-bearing British tourists aren't all that welcome to begin with.

That too is at least partially his fault.

McHrozni

Lothian 4th June 2020 04:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Don (Post 13113248)
The travel industry is up in arms about the proposed quarantine:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/worl...ost_type=share

I guess it comes down to whether ground crew jobs are more important than lives.

And finally:



It wasn't done in March because the UK government has never been "steered by the science" and instead has lurched from promoting/hoping for herd immunity and suppressing the disease to stop the NHS from being overwhelmed. It's also like a cushion, it bears the impression of the last person to sit on it and so changes its mind regularly about what course of action to adopt with regard to the chosen strategy. They're also feckless and lazy and because not implementing quarantine is easier than implementing it, they chose that option. :mad:

I don't see why we are doing this silly quarantine thing at all. We have a world leading Test, Track and Trace system. Other countries who don't have a world leading Test, Track and Trace system would need to think about it but thankfully we are not a nation that has pathetically prepared for Covid .

What we, with our world leading Test, Track and Trace system can do is: -when people land the are given a world leading Test, to see if they have Covid. They must download our world leading tracking app. They will probably get a world leading Test result before clearing Customs. They must then for the next 5 days report to a world leading Test centre to get another world leading Test. If at any point they fail then our world leading Tracking app will trigger the world leading Trace system and automatically inform everyone that they have been in contact with to into world leading lock down.

What is wrong with that as a plan?

Darat 4th June 2020 04:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lothian (Post 13113266)
I don't see why we are doing this silly quarantine thing at all. We have a world leading Test, Track and Trace system. Other countries who don't have a world leading Test, Track and Trace system would need to think about it but thankfully we are not a nation that has pathetically prepared for Covid .

What we, with our world leading Test, Track and Trace system can do is: -when people land the are given a world leading Test, to see if they have Covid. They must download our world leading tracking app. They will probably get a world leading Test result before clearing Customs. They must then for the next 5 days report to a world leading Test centre to get another world leading Test. If at any point they fail then our world leading Tracking app will trigger the world leading Trace system and automatically inform everyone that they have been in contact with to into world leading lock down.

What is wrong with that as a plan?

Compared to actual government plans? It would be genius! :D

wobs 4th June 2020 05:22 AM

Which would you open first?
Ikea, to buy rubbish you don't need in an enclosed area,
Schools, with the enormous logistical nightmare of educating all those kids but maintain social distancing, or
Zoos - which are open air, can easily manage social distancing, will educate, and contribute to conservation.

Duh!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-englan...yside-52875282

The Don 4th June 2020 05:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lothian (Post 13113266)
I don't see why we are doing this silly quarantine thing at all. We have a world leading Test, Track and Trace system. Other countries who don't have a world leading Test, Track and Trace system would need to think about it but thankfully we are not a nation that has pathetically prepared for Covid .

What we, with our world leading Test, Track and Trace system can do is: -when people land the are given a world leading Test, to see if they have Covid. They must download our world leading tracking app. They will probably get a world leading Test result before clearing Customs. They must then for the next 5 days report to a world leading Test centre to get another world leading Test. If at any point they fail then our world leading Tracking app will trigger the world leading Trace system and automatically inform everyone that they have been in contact with to into world leading lock down.

What is wrong with that as a plan?

I think you'll find that it's not just world leading, it's world beating.

On an unrelated note, my late father used to to refer to an old and dilapidated car as "A Beater".

In order to support the track and trace system, Mrs Don is keeping a record of everyone outside our household she has had exposure to so that it will help the tracers. So far, after 1 week, there are zero names on that list :o.

3point14 4th June 2020 05:42 AM

Meanwhile the government give the Daily Mail money to advertise how well they're doing.

Welcome to 1984

https://mobile.twitter.com/carolecad...75710586712067

Arcade22 4th June 2020 06:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wobs (Post 13113329)
Which would you open first?
Ikea, to buy rubbish you don't need in an enclosed area,
Schools, with the enormous logistical nightmare of educating all those kids but maintain social distancing, or
Zoos - which are open air, can easily manage social distancing, will educate, and contribute to conservation.

Duh!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-englan...yside-52875282

Sweden has kept day care centres and primary schools open without any significant deaths among either students (only one single dead child, that is someone under the age of 18, has been recorded as dying from or at least while infected by the virus) or teachers.

As far as I know, only one teacher has died from covid that they are known or suspected to have been infected by their colleagues. Two or three other teachers have died but they are known or suspected to have been infected outside of the school.

While it's difficult to organize and manage the teaching with regards to the amount of teachers and other staff members that are on sick leave, because they are either sick or a part of a risk group, it's surprisingly not a very dangerous environment as long as the adults do not infect each-other.

dann 4th June 2020 06:37 AM

"Known or suspected" is good! Sweden does so little testing and contact tracing that it's hard to say who infects whom.
Yesterday Sweden overtook France in number of coronavirus deaths per million and is now #7.

wobs 4th June 2020 07:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcade22 (Post 13113353)
Sweden has kept day care centres and primary schools open without any significant deaths among either students (only one single dead child, that is someone under the age of 18, has been recorded as dying from or at least while infected by the virus) or teachers.

As far as I know, only one teacher has died from covid that they are known or suspected to have been infected by their colleagues. Two or three other teachers have died but they are known or suspected to have been infected outside of the school.

While it's difficult to organize and manage the teaching with regards to the amount of teachers and other staff members that are on sick leave, because they are either sick or a part of a risk group, it's surprisingly not a very dangerous environment as long as the adults do not infect each-other.

I wouldn't expect any significent deaths among the kids (although there is evidence that a tiny % could be affected).

It is the spreading to the wider population that concerns us. I've heard reports of 5-6 year olds going back in teh UK, and having strict rules to follow. However, parents have dropped them off and then met up to chat, and not followed social distancing rules on school grounds!

The idea that we could get all teh kids back in school, and maintain social distancing is ambitious to say the least.

We are the worst effected in Europe by some measures, and a PM who is proud of his track reord on this. Many of us are less than postive on this whole idea.

Captain_Swoop 4th June 2020 07:52 AM

Boris Tweeted

Let’s continue to fight this virus by staying alert, keeping 2 metres away from others, and regularly washing our hands.
#StayAlert

Captain_Swoop 4th June 2020 07:55 AM

How is Alok Sharma doing Boris ? Just asking.

Arcade22 4th June 2020 07:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wobs (Post 13113421)
I wouldn't expect any significent deaths among the kids (although there is evidence that a tiny % could be affected).

It is the spreading to the wider population that concerns us. I've heard reports of 5-6 year olds going back in teh UK, and having strict rules to follow. However, parents have dropped them off and then met up to chat, and not followed social distancing rules on school grounds!

The idea that we could get all teh kids back in school, and maintain social distancing is ambitious to say the least.

Is it rare for kids to go to school on their own?

Arcade22 4th June 2020 07:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop (Post 13113431)
Boris Tweeted

Let’s continue to fight this virus by staying alert, keeping 2 metres away from others, and regularly washing our hands.
#StayAlert

I still don't know what he means by "staying alert". I'm not sure he does either.

sphenisc 4th June 2020 08:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wobs (Post 13113329)
Which would you open first?
Ikea, to buy rubbish you don't need in an enclosed area,
Schools, with the enormous logistical nightmare of educating all those kids but maintain social distancing, or
Zoos - which are open air, can easily manage social distancing, will educate, and contribute to conservation.

Duh!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-englan...yside-52875282

Question: Does the zoo have bats, pangolins and a suspiciously cheap cafe?

wobs 4th June 2020 08:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcade22 (Post 13113438)
Is it rare for kids to go to school on their own?

For younger kids you have to take them to school. I forget the cut off age where they can go on their own.

wobs 4th June 2020 08:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sphenisc (Post 13113468)
Question: Does the zoo have bats, pangolins and a suspiciously cheap cafe?

They do have bats! I am confident they're not the menu, even though one did find my daughters head when we went.

P.J. Denyer 4th June 2020 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcade22 (Post 13113438)
Is it rare for kids to go to school on their own?

Around here you have to take your one or two children to school in a 4x4 because the streets are too dangerous due to being full of 4x4s, each taking a child to school.....:rolleyes:

Captain_Swoop 4th June 2020 09:49 AM

From 15 June, face coverings (not clinical masks) will be mandatory on all public transport in England. Passengers who refuse to comply will be refused travel or fined, which will be enforced by staff and British Transport Police

Captain_Swoop 4th June 2020 09:51 AM

Network Rail chairman Sir Peter Hendy says he does not foresee workers having to police the new rules, saying: "This is about people being sensible - people do what they're asked as long as what they're asked to do is sensible."

So it's going to be chaos then.

P.J. Denyer 4th June 2020 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop (Post 13113588)
Network Rail chairman Sir Peter Hendy says he does not foresee workers having to police the new rules, saying: "This is about people being sensible - people do what they're asked as long as what they're asked to do is sensible."

So it's going to be chaos then.

He doesn't get out much I take it?

Darat 4th June 2020 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop (Post 13113584)
From 15 June, face coverings (not clinical masks) will be mandatory on all public transport in England. Passengers who refuse to comply will be refused travel or fined, which will be enforced by staff and British Transport Police


Which is based on scientific advice....

Nothing to do with trying to make people think they are safe on public transport once we all have to be crushed in together again.

It’s like theatre security at airports.

Darat 4th June 2020 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop (Post 13113588)
Network Rail chairman Sir Peter Hendy says he does not foresee workers having to police the new rules, saying: "This is about people being sensible - people do what they're asked as long as what they're asked to do is sensible."

So it's going to be chaos then.


He doesn’t know Cummings.

Arcade22 4th June 2020 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wobs (Post 13113481)
For younger kids you have to take them to school. I forget the cut off age where they can go on their own.

Either way it should be doable without incurring unacceptable levels of risk of spreading the infection. It's especially important for the schools to open because the continuing negative effects especially with regards to the most disadvantaged children and communities.

In that regard it comes off as utterly selfish and inconsiderate when some teachers demand that schools stay closed until they face little to no risk of being infected.

Darat 4th June 2020 10:11 AM

“.... The NHS coronavirus test-and-trace system designed to prevent a second deadly wave is not expected to work at full speed until September or October, the Guardian has learned.

Tony Prestedge, the chief operating officer of the NHS scheme, admitted in a webinar to staff that the programme would be “imperfect” at launch, adding that he hoped it would be operational at a world-class level within three to four months....”


Oh dear.....


https://www.theguardian.com/society/...e_iOSApp_Other

Mader Levap 4th June 2020 10:34 AM

Covid-19: how a virus is turning the world upside down

Quote:

In contrast to the financial crisis of 2008, when the focus was on saving banks and capitalism, political declarations and economic programmes now also seek to protect the most vulnerable people, nationally and globally. Hundreds of billions of dollars are available in the global North to finance rescue measures such as tax cuts, extended unemployment benefits, mortgage holidays, and liquidity for small and medium sized businesses.

Even countries that were initially willing to allow some older people to die, such as the UK and US, are bowing to pressure to follow a similar playbook. The US congress has agreed to a bipartisan $2.2tn covid-19 rescue bill, and despite substantial corporate handouts there is tacit agreement across the political divide to include direct payments to the most disadvantaged citizens.

The Don 4th June 2020 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop (Post 13113431)
Boris Tweeted

Let’s continue to fight this virus by staying alert, keeping 2 metres away from others, and regularly washing our hands.
#StayAlert

If you catch it, it's your fault for not washing your hands (of the situation) enough:rolleyes:

The Don 4th June 2020 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darat (Post 13113619)
“.... The NHS coronavirus test-and-trace system designed to prevent a second deadly wave is not expected to work at full speed until September or October, the Guardian has learned.

Tony Prestedge, the chief operating officer of the NHS scheme, admitted in a webinar to staff that the programme would be “imperfect” at launch, adding that he hoped it would be operational at a world-class level within three to four months....”


Oh dear.....


https://www.theguardian.com/society/...e_iOSApp_Other

If they're admitting to 4 months, it could easily be a year if my experience of large government projects are anything to go by.

P.J. Denyer 4th June 2020 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Don (Post 13113775)
If they're admitting to 4 months, it could easily be a year if my experience of large government projects are anything to go by.

Or 'forever' if my experience of Boris is anything to go by.

quadraginta 4th June 2020 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darat (Post 13113619)
“.... The NHS coronavirus test-and-trace system designed to prevent a second deadly wave is not expected to work at full speed until September or October, the Guardian has learned.

Tony Prestedge, the chief operating officer of the NHS scheme, admitted in a webinar to staff that the programme would be “imperfect” at launch, adding that he hoped it would be operational at a world-class level within three to four months....”


Oh dear.....


https://www.theguardian.com/society/...e_iOSApp_Other


I am beginning to suspect that "world-class" means something different in British English than it does in American English.

Is this an ironic usage that everyone there understands as satire?

Captain_Swoop 4th June 2020 02:49 PM

Serco admits track & trace not likely to work for months but chief exec says he wanted to 'cement the position of the private sector' in the NHS supply chain. Rage-inducing story

https://theguardian.com/society/2020...er-coronavirus

The Don 5th June 2020 12:12 AM

It's depressing to see a global pandemic being used as a catalyst to achieve the key objectives of Brexit:
  • Privatising as much of the NHS as possible - ideally to US corporations
  • Lowering food standards to allow the US to flood the UK market with the likes of hormone-fed beef and chlorinated chicken
  • Abandoning worker and environmental protections
  • Lowering taxes and hollowing out the welfare state to further facilitate the transfer of wealth from the poorest to the most wealthy

That over 50,000 had to die to achieve it is just deplorable. :mad:

I watched the Channel 4 documentary on the government's (mis)handling of the Coronavirus crisis. If I hadn't already been out for a run with Mrs Don and done a spin class, the effect that programme had on my pulse and blood pressure would have counted as that day's 30 minutes of cardio.

Planigale 5th June 2020 12:28 AM

I am surprised it has taken so long for Silver Swan to leak. This was an exercise that the Scottish Government (the current one) did, modelling a coronavirus pandemic. It identified issues with lack of PPE, testing and contact tracing. No action taken on lessons learned.

(FWIW lessons learned were shared with NERVTAG UK based scientific advisory body, not sure whether shared with Westminster government.)

Squeegee Beckenheim 5th June 2020 12:35 AM

https://twitter.com/BorisJohnson_MP/...893489664?s=20

Quote:

Grant Shapps announces that face coverings will become mandatory on #publictransport, as part of a new suite of measures called 'Things we should have done in March'.
#DailyBriefing #facecovering
https://twitter.com/SpanishDan1/stat...539534336?s=20

Quote:

Grant shapps showing he doesn’t give a flying flamingo on #skynews

“We only came into government in December “

Well f&&k me who has been in office since 2010 ?

Vixen 5th June 2020 01:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcade22 (Post 13113618)
Either way it should be doable without incurring unacceptable levels of risk of spreading the infection. It's especially important for the schools to open because the continuing negative effects especially with regards to the most disadvantaged children and communities.

In that regard it comes off as utterly selfish and inconsiderate when some teachers demand that schools stay closed until they face little to no risk of being infected.

It's interesting how the Swedish and UK eugenists suddenly have bleeding hearts towards 'disadvantaged children and communities' (for Sweden: read Somalis in Stockholm, for the UK: read people on benefits and low-paid BAME). Who cares if 'these people', as they are invariably referred to, go down with Covid19.

Mr Clingford 5th June 2020 04:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3point14 (Post 13113342)
Meanwhile the government give the Daily Mail money to advertise how well they're doing.

Welcome to 1984

https://mobile.twitter.com/carolecad...75710586712067

There's a link to https://bylinetimes.com/2020/05/13/s...of-journalism/ "strangling-democracy-millions-paid-to-corporate-press-at-the-expense-of-journalism"
******* hell. What's the best way to support independent journailsm?


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