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-   -   Covid-19 and Politics (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=342577)

3point14 5th June 2020 05:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Clingford (Post 13114583)
There's a link to https://bylinetimes.com/2020/05/13/s...of-journalism/ "strangling-democracy-millions-paid-to-corporate-press-at-the-expense-of-journalism"
******* hell. What's the best way to support independent journailsm?

Utterly petrifying.

Arcade22 5th June 2020 05:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vixen (Post 13114492)
It's interesting how the Swedish and UK eugenists suddenly have bleeding hearts towards 'disadvantaged children and communities' (for Sweden: read Somalis in Stockholm, for the UK: read people on benefits and low-paid BAME). Who cares if 'these people', as they are invariably referred to, go down with Covid19.

Lol yeah only Somalis are disadvantaged in Stockholm. You are clueless.

P.J. Denyer 5th June 2020 08:18 AM

It's stunning how many people don't understand that Boris Johnson is leader of the same Conservative Party that they think they are protesting against by voting for Boris Johnson.

zooterkin 5th June 2020 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop (Post 13113584)
From 15 June, face coverings (not clinical masks) will be mandatory on all public transport in England. Passengers who refuse to comply will be refused travel or fined, which will be enforced by staff and British Transport Police

Although you're allowed not to wear one if you have, for example, asthma. No chance of any problems with that...


Also, there's supposedly some volunteer force being set up to remind people, but no-one thought to mention this to the rail unions, whose members are also expected to enforce the new regulation. The unions are threatening to strike.

Quote:

Rail unions have threatened to strike over government plans for an “army” of volunteers at transport hubs to remind travellers to wear a face covering.
...
Shapps said passengers would also be encouraged to cover their face when entering bus and train stations with the help of volunteer “journey makers”.
...

The RMT general secretary, Mick Cash, said the Department for Transport had “done a backroom deal to recruit unpaid and unskilled workers on our railway without even so much as conversation with rail unions,” and the union would consider a strike ballot.

While staff and unions have welcomed the moves to make face coverings mandatory, they remain concerned about implementation.

Cash said that, despite the use of the volunteers at stations reminding passengers, it was “clear that the government and industry bosses are expecting our members to police this policy”.

P.J. Denyer 5th June 2020 10:34 AM

Wait, so now Boris wants people to look like bank robbers and letter boxes? :confused:

Captain_Swoop 5th June 2020 10:45 AM

R number above 1 in some parts of England...no health or science experts at the presser...

Fishy as ****.

Darat 5th June 2020 10:51 AM

Are the government providing face masks or is it again going to be the lower paid who bear more of the financial burden?

Darat 5th June 2020 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zooterkin (Post 13114845)
Although you're allowed not to wear one if you have, for example, asthma. No chance of any problems with that...


Also, there's supposedly some volunteer force being set up to remind people, but no-one thought to mention this to the rail unions, whose members are also expected to enforce the new regulation. The unions are threatening to strike.


This pandemic is really not playing fair, doesnít it know that you just issue a press release and that solves the problem?

Captain_Swoop 5th June 2020 11:07 AM

Tory MP attended lockdown barbecue with journalists - Spectator deputy editor, Freddy Gray, and Isabel Oakeshott - as well as Richard Tice, Brexit party chairman

Quote:

The Tory MP spearheading efforts to promote the Covid-19 contact-tracing app trial on the Isle of Wight appears to have broken lockdown rules at a barbecue also attended by the chairman of the Brexit party and political journalists, the Guardian has learned.

Bob Seely went to the evening gathering hosted by the Spectator magazine’s deputy editor, Freddy Gray, in the village of Seaview on the island last month. Richard Tice, the Brexit party chairman, and his partner, the political journalist Isabel Oakeshott, were also there.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...th-journalists

Quote:

“In the interests of being transparent, I am happy to confirm that, as the island’s MP, I have had a very small number of other such face-to-face conversations
Quote:

Tice and Oakeshott did not deny their attendance and made reference to testing their eyesight

zooterkin 5th June 2020 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop (Post 13114940)
R number above 1 in some parts of England...no health or science experts at the presser...

Fishy as ****.

More details here. The value is between .89 and 1.01 in different areas.

Calls for regional lockdowns, and claims, unsurprisingly, that restrictions were lifted too early.

Quote:

The influential model, from scientists at Public Health England (PHE) and the University of Cambridge, puts R at 1.01 for the north-west and 1 for the south-west. The north-west Ė including Liverpool and Manchester Ė is viewed as particularly concerning due to higher numbers of infections there, which would be projected to continue at the current rate.

Regional leaders said they feared the prospect of a second spike in deaths and that the decision to ease lockdown based on the national picture Ė ignoring regional hotspots Ė had been a mistake.

However, Matt Hancock, the health secretary, attempted to downplay the new study from Cambridge and PHE, which is part of his own department. He insisted it was right to ease the lockdown and claimed that the governmentís overall view after looking at various studies was that the R value was still below 1 in all regions.

Appearing at No 10ís daily press briefing without the usual scientific experts alongside him, Hancock defended himself against an accusation that the government was ďcherrypickingĒ good data in order to justify loosening restrictions.

Captain_Swoop 5th June 2020 06:19 PM

Grant Shapps, "We only came to Government in December"

So the past 10 years of Tory Govt just gets airbrushed from history.

Mojo 5th June 2020 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darat (Post 13114950)
Are the government providing face masks or is it again going to be the lower paid who bear more of the financial burden?


I assume thatís rhetorical.

Vixen 6th June 2020 01:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcade22 (Post 13114603)
Lol yeah only Somalis are disadvantaged in Stockholm. You are clueless.

They are disproportionately affected by Covid19, so where is the sense in 'disadvantaged children really really need to be back at school because suddenly we care so much about them'?

Vixen 6th June 2020 01:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zooterkin (Post 13114845)
Although you're allowed not to wear one if you have, for example, asthma. No chance of any problems with that...


Also, there's supposedly some volunteer force being set up to remind people, but no-one thought to mention this to the rail unions, whose members are also expected to enforce the new regulation. The unions are threatening to strike.

Can't see the logic of that as asthmatics are considered relatively high-risk (10% of those who die of Covid19 have this as an 'underlying cause').

Advice given to asthmatics is pretty poor IMV as they are not told that inhalers will not help them if they have difficulty breathing due to Covid19 infection. This could lead to unnecessary fatalities due to people overdosing on their Ventolin.

Vixen 6th June 2020 01:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer (Post 13114928)
Wait, so now Boris wants people to look like bank robbers and letter boxes? :confused:

With cctv cameras everywhere you go in London you can be sure they HATE the idea of people having their faces covered.

Vixen 6th June 2020 01:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darat (Post 13114950)
Are the government providing face masks or is it again going to be the lower paid who bear more of the financial burden?

They will be giving out disposable face masks.

Could be those dud masks that came all the way from Turkey a couple of months back. Wouldn't surprise me as they say you can make your own.

Vixen 6th June 2020 01:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop (Post 13115505)
Grant Shapps, "We only came to Government in December"

So the past 10 years of Tory Govt just gets airbrushed from history.

It's OK, he was speaking as his alter-personna, Kenneth Green.

ThatGuy11200 6th June 2020 01:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vixen (Post 13115712)
Can't see the logic of that as asthmatics are considered relatively high-risk (10% of those who die of Covid19 have this as an 'underlying cause').

Advice given to asthmatics is pretty poor IMV as they are not told that inhalers will not help them if they have difficulty breathing due to Covid19 infection. This could lead to unnecessary fatalities due to people overdosing on their Ventolin.

Do you have a link for that. Articles I've seen suggest asthmatics aren't at higher risk. For example:

https://www.medpagetoday.com/infecti.../covid19/86323

Quote:

Rogers also cited mortality statistics from the New York State Department of Health, in which "asthma is not even in the top 10" comorbidities, even though 8%-10% of New York's population has asthma. Rogers noted chronic obstructive pulmonary disease (COPD) comes in after hypertension, diabetes, as well as other types of cardiovascular disease, dementia, and renal disease.

This does not necessarily mean asthma is protective, as other factors could explain these lower rates, she added. Patients with asthma may behave differently than patients with other chronic diseases, though Rogers said that seems unlikely, or it could be an artifact of how the data were collected.

But if these can be ruled out, it does at least raise the question of whether asthma or its treatment is "protective," she said. One reason that may be the case: The presence of type 2 inflammation in asthma or allergies, which is associated with lower expression of ACE2, thought to be the entry receptor for SARS-CoV-2 in host cells.

P.J. Denyer 6th June 2020 01:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop (Post 13115505)
Grant Shapps, "We only came to Government in December"

So the past 10 years of Tory Govt just gets airbrushed from history.

Why not? It worked last December. Johnson's platform was 'Vote for me to fix the things my party (including Governments I was part of) have broken over the last decade'. I've spoken to people IRL who have literally claimed to have voted Tory as a protest against the last government! (Not smart people admittedly, but there's enough people that fall outside that category to swing an election).

Just wait, when Murdoch and the Barclays decide the time is right Johnson will be ousted and their papers will be assuring people that they should vote for the new Tory leader who has absolutely nothing to with any decision made in 15 years of Tory rule. But that the Labour leader is Micheal Foot in a rubber mask.

Squeegee Beckenheim 6th June 2020 01:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer (Post 13114772)
It's stunning how many people don't understand that Boris Johnson is leader of the same Conservative Party that they think they are protesting against by voting for Boris Johnson.

The Tories literally got elected on a campaign of "we're the party that's fighting against the party who have been in power for the last 10 years". I mean, you've got to hand it to them, really.

P.J. Denyer 6th June 2020 02:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim (Post 13115728)
The Tories literally got elected on a campaign of "we're the party that's fighting against the party who have been in power for the last 10 years". I mean, you've got to hand it to them, really.

If Boris Johnson murdered his parents he'd claim clemency on the grounds of being an orphan.

Borrowed from the rulebook for the rpg 'Paranoia'

Darat 6th June 2020 03:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vixen (Post 13115714)
They will be giving out disposable face masks.

Could be those dud masks that came all the way from Turkey a couple of months back. Wouldn't surprise me as they say you can make your own.


Will they?

Arcade22 6th June 2020 03:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vixen (Post 13115709)
They are disproportionately affected by Covid19, so where is the sense in 'disadvantaged children really really need to be back at school because suddenly we care so much about them'?

I have no idea what you are trying to say, but given the level of social exclusion and disadvantage that many immigrant communities experience it's obviously highly detrimental to their long-term welfare if Swedish schools had been closed.

It's not Swedish middle class people who would experience a disproportionate impact of the closure of schools.

zooterkin 6th June 2020 03:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer (Post 13115752)
If Boris Johnson murdered his parents he'd claim clemency on the grounds of being an orphan.

Borrowed from the rulebook for the rpg 'Paranoia'

Itís much older than that. :)
Quote:

Leo Rosten in The Joys of Yiddish defines chutzpah as "gall, brazen nerve, effrontery, incredible 'guts', presumption plus arrogance such as no other word and no other language can do justice to". In this sense, chutzpah expresses both strong disapproval and condemnation. In the same work, Rosten also defines the term as "that quality enshrined in a man who, having killed his mother and father, throws himself on the mercy of the court because he is an orphan."
The Joys of Yiddish was published in 1968.

zooterkin 6th June 2020 03:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darat (Post 13115774)
Will they?

Volunteers for Transport for London will apparently be doing it from next week. I donít know if anyone will be doing it for other rail or bus services; itís only been mentioned that the volunteers there will be reminding people to wear masks.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...ing-volunteers

Quote:

Transport for London volunteers will also be handing out single-use face coverings for journeys over the next week before they become mandatory on public transport on 15 June.

Mojo 6th June 2020 04:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zooterkin (Post 13115778)
It’s much older than that. :)

Quote:

Leo Rosten in The Joys of Yiddish defines chutzpah as "gall, brazen nerve, effrontery, incredible 'guts', presumption plus arrogance such as no other word and no other language can do justice to". In this sense, chutzpah expresses both strong disapproval and condemnation. In the same work, Rosten also defines the term as "that quality enshrined in a man who, having killed his mother and father, throws himself on the mercy of the court because he is an orphan."
The Joys of Yiddish was published in 1968.


It looks as if it might go back a little bit further than that: https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/359...d-then-pleaded

Quote:

Hypocrite: The man who murdered his parents, and then pleaded for mercy on the grounds that he was an orphan.

Abraham Lincoln

Although I haven’t found a quotation of that published earlier than the Rosten one.

P.J. Denyer 6th June 2020 05:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zooterkin (Post 13115778)
Itís much older than that. :)


The Joys of Yiddish was published in 1968.

Ah, I think the Paranoia manual was quoting that (now you mention it I think it may even have been attributed to Mr Rosen, I read it a long time ago!) but I'm pretty sure that is the exact description they gave, word for word. Chutzpah is a character sheet attribute in Paranoia.

Darat 6th June 2020 05:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zooterkin (Post 13115785)
Volunteers for Transport for London will apparently be doing it from next week. I donít know if anyone will be doing it for other rail or bus services; itís only been mentioned that the volunteers there will be reminding people to wear masks.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...ing-volunteers


Has anyone told these volunteers?

P.J. Denyer 6th June 2020 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darat (Post 13115849)
Has anyone told these volunteers?

They don't know they're volunteering yet.

catsmate 6th June 2020 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zooterkin (Post 13115785)
Volunteers for Transport for London will apparently be doing it from next week. I donít know if anyone will be doing it for other rail or bus services; itís only been mentioned that the volunteers there will be reminding people to wear masks.

So there'll be a group of people standing around trains all day? I hope they'll be regularly tested it sounds like a recipe for "super spreaders" as well as mindless idiocy.

Darat 6th June 2020 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by catsmate (Post 13116131)
So there'll be a group of people standing around trains all day? I hope they'll be regularly tested it sounds like a recipe for "super spreaders" as well as mindless idiocy.


And at least one at each of Londonís 19000 bus stops, to just consider one city in England. Once again our government demonstrates they have no understanding about public transport.

Vixen 6th June 2020 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThatGuy11200 (Post 13115723)
Do you have a link for that. Articles I've seen suggest asthmatics aren't at higher risk. For example:

https://www.medpagetoday.com/infecti.../covid19/86323

That's interesting, about the ACE2 receptors.

It was in a table producedin one of the many dozens if not hundreds of tabloid articles so I can't point you to it. Obviously, a medical site trumps the hysterical tabloids.

catsmate 6th June 2020 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darat (Post 13116140)
And at least one at each of Londonís 19000 bus stops, to just consider one city in England. Once again our government demonstrates they have no understanding about public transport.

There are times I wonder would "risk of Covid-19 infection" constitute a reasonable defense to spraying someone in the face with bleach?

quadraginta 6th June 2020 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zooterkin (Post 13114845)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop (Post 13113584)
From 15 June, face coverings (not clinical masks) will be mandatory on all public transport in England. Passengers who refuse to comply will be refused travel or fined, which will be enforced by staff and British Transport Police

Although you're allowed not to wear one if you have, for example, asthma. No chance of any problems with that...


<snip>


There has been a lot of discussion and even a little research suggesting that face shields could be a viable (if not perfect) substitute for masks. Tests have indicated that they can protect the wearer from as much as 96% of "immediate viral exposure" from a cough at 18" and 92% at 6'. This compares well with homemade face masks and the cheaper mass produced ones. I haven't seen any research about their efficacy for protecting others from transmission from the wearer, but it stands to reason that if reducing droplet transmission is the goal (as is supposedly the case with homemade and other non-clinical masks) then wearing a mask is going to be of at least some utility.

Face shields would solve the problem of the asthma sufferers' breathing difficulties. Other benefits also accrue. They are less complicated to mass produce than masks of any sort. They are infinitely (figuratively, not literally) reusable, They are easily cleaned. It would even be possible to eat while wearing one, if with some difficulty, making restaurants somewhat less problematic.

On the social front they let people see each other's faces. (I didn't realize how much I would find that impediment of masks to be disconcerting to me personally until I went out on my first foray to the grocery store wearing a mask. Not just because I couldn't see other faces, but because they couldn't see mine either. I learned how much I rely on exchanging even small smiles with people I passed in the isles. I guess that minor expression of friendliness made me feel better.)

So a dispensation which allows asthma sufferers to travel mask free ought to at least include a requirement to wear a shield. Not perfect, perhaps, but apparently far better than nothing at all.

I have a feeling that face shields are going to become increasing popular as time passes.

bruto 6th June 2020 09:29 PM

I was doing some shopping recently and noticed that a lot of the supermarket personnel were wearing face shields. They're pretty simple and unsophisticated ones, but with good coverage. I imagine that people who have to work at a register for a long period would find them far preferable to masks. Especially if your glasses fog up with a mask.

Captain_Swoop 7th June 2020 02:35 AM

The govt reduced the UK-wide coronavirus alert level on the advice of the “Joint Biosecurity Centre"
Matt Hancock revealed the “Joint Biosecurity Centre” doesn’t exist yet.

The govt announced dentists were returning to work
Dentists say they haven't been consulted about this, or even warned it was happening.

Squeegee Beckenheim 7th June 2020 02:37 AM

Well, there's some good news, anyway - according to one poll, Johnson's approval rating has dropped 40 points in 2 months

Captain_Swoop 7th June 2020 02:41 AM

Marr asks Hancock about Track and Trace

“How many people have been contacted?”

Hancock replies

“I’m not going to tell you that”

Squeegee Beckenheim 7th June 2020 05:16 AM

"...because you don't know, or because it's embarrassingly low? Or both?"

Nessie 7th June 2020 06:52 AM

The remarkable story of Mongolia, with zero deaths;

https://medium.com/@indica/covid-und...a-3b0c162427c2

The capital is a large city of 1.5 million people with a density of 307 people per km2 and ripe for infection due to its proximity and regular flights from China. So they went into lockdown in January, closing schools, theatres etc then. All flights into the country since 1st Feb had required quarantining, including the crew. They manufactured a lot of their own PPE.

All of that happened, despite still no cases. The first case was a French national who arrived in February. The office he worked in and the entire district he lived in was quarantined. Everywhere he had been disinfected. There were no transmissions.

They have had 140 cases, all of people who have arrived back into the country and none have resulted in other transmissions.


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