International Skeptics Forum

International Skeptics Forum (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/forumindex.php)
-   Non-USA & General Politics (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=98)
-   -   General UK politics (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=346868)

Vixen 3rd October 2021 01:53 AM

When it gets really bad Alex can raise people's spirits by
  • bringing out a new space programme - done that. Did it work?
  • wheel out Dilyn
  • wheel out Wilfrid
  • get Carrie to save a few badgers and alpacas ('Geronimo had to go, soz'.)
Howzabout that then? <sfx gurgle gurgle gurgle>

P.J. Denyer 3rd October 2021 03:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by p0lka (Post 13618045)
I don't think anyone in government at the moment is thinking that far ahead,

It's 'look at the headlines, oh **** we need to deal with that so let's do a thing that makes us look better for the next headlines',

no long term planning, just trying to get through one crisis after another whilst looking good.
ridiculous.
Yet people keep voting for them? that's even more ridiculous.

edit:
the press barons themselves? I think some people aren't happy unless everyone else is in conflict. There might not be a goal.

They're the alt-med government offering miracle cures that won't work to deal with symptoms as they occur while disparaging actual treatments that might be effective because anything that could work on the underlying problems will necessarily have side effects. When the problem is self limiting they claim credit, when it isn't the escalating problem is because the British public don't believe enough.

Garrison 3rd October 2021 03:48 AM

I am alone in being alarmed when Johnson says:
Quote:

The government "will stop at nothing to make sure that we get more rapists behind bars"
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58779629

Sounds more like a willingness to trample over civil liberties than any plan to reform the police or address weaknesses in the criminal justice system, unless you regard the rights of the accused as a weakness.

Lothian 3rd October 2021 04:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garrison (Post 13618219)
I am alone in being alarmed when Johnson says:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58779629

Sounds more like a willingness to trample over civil liberties than any plan to reform the police or address weaknesses in the criminal justice system, unless you regard the rights of the accused as a weakness.

Perhaps, to facilitate a trade deal it is a sign that the UK will cooperate with the US and will send Andrew Windsor to America to stand trial?

zooterkin 3rd October 2021 04:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garrison (Post 13618219)
I am alone in being alarmed when Johnson says:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58779629

Sounds more like a willingness to trample over civil liberties than any plan to reform the police or address weaknesses in the criminal justice system, unless you regard the rights of the accused as a weakness.

I don't pay any attention to what Johnson says. He's a proven liar with a track record of broken promises, so, even more than any other politician, there's really no point in listening when he speaks.

Captain_Swoop 3rd October 2021 06:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garrison (Post 13618219)
I am alone in being alarmed when Johnson says:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58779629

Sounds more like a willingness to trample over civil liberties than any plan to reform the police or address weaknesses in the criminal justice system, unless you regard the rights of the accused as a weakness.

Maybe he means make them work at Wetherspoons?

Vixen 3rd October 2021 07:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garrison (Post 13618219)
I am alone in being alarmed when Johnson says:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58779629

Sounds more like a willingness to trample over civil liberties than any plan to reform the police or address weaknesses in the criminal justice system, unless you regard the rights of the accused as a weakness.

Where is 'We will stop at nothing' in the grand scheme of things?

gypsyjackson 3rd October 2021 08:03 AM

‘We’ll stop at nothing’ has a double meaning.

Carrot Flower King 3rd October 2021 08:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gypsyjackson (Post 13618444)
ĎWeíll stop at nothingí has a double meaning.

As in "We've done nothing, so we'll stop now!" ?

KDLarsen 3rd October 2021 09:13 AM

It's always wonderful to hear tory ministers proclaim
Quote:

I know it might not feel like it in the immediate term. But it is in our mid and long-term interest that these logistics chains do break.

It will mean that the farmer down the street will be able to sell their milk in the village shop like they did decades ago. It is because these commercial predators – that is the supermarkets – have wiped that out and I’d like to see that come back.
That is the party of big business speaking right there :rolleyes:

Carrot Flower King 3rd October 2021 09:18 AM

^ It's almost like said minister has no idea how regulation of milk production or anything else to do with agriculture actually works, nor how the retail sector works, nor anything really...

p0lka 3rd October 2021 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer (Post 13618213)
They're the alt-med government offering miracle cures that won't work to deal with symptoms as they occur while disparaging actual treatments that might be effective because anything that could work on the underlying problems will necessarily have side effects. When the problem is self limiting they claim credit, when it isn't the escalating problem is because the British public don't believe enough.

Anything to stay in power at this point, I think.

edit:
I glossed over the alt-med bit, is that alternative medicine? I thought you were describing the present government.

P.J. Denyer 3rd October 2021 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by p0lka (Post 13618618)
Anything to stay in power at this point, I think.

edit:
I glossed over the alt-med bit, is that alternative medicine? I thought you were describing the present government.

Yes it's alternative medicine, not literally but it's (imo) a good analogy for this government, they're selling something that doesn't work by lying about effectiveness of make believe plans while using the honesty of people with genuine solutions (which in the real world have consequences) against them.

p0lka 3rd October 2021 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer (Post 13618677)
Yes it's alternative medicine, not literally but it's (imo) a good analogy for this government, they're selling something that doesn't work by lying about effectiveness of make believe plans while using the honesty of people with genuine solutions (which in the real world have consequences) against them.

Ah, good analogy, yeah I agree.

gypsyjackson 3rd October 2021 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carrot Flower King (Post 13618459)
As in "We've done nothing, so we'll stop now!" ?

:D :thumbsup:

Quote:

Originally Posted by KDLarsen (Post 13618489)
It's always wonderful to hear tory ministers proclaim

That is the party of big business speaking right there :rolleyes:

Yeah, a farmer with a hundred cows producing 7000 litres of milk a day wants to bottle that himself to sell in the local shop. Sorry, 12318.28 pints.

To be fair, he’s not a Minister (yet) but he is a member of the “Common Sense Group” of Tories, otherwise known as BLDM.

Captain_Swoop 4th October 2021 03:19 AM

UK tax avoidance not a "source of shame" says Chancellor Rishi Sunak, after huge leak of financial documents reveal secret offshore wealth of world leaders, politicians and billionaires

https://bbc.in/3oxp8Rt

The UK is, literally, the sovereign controller of the world's most blatant tax-shelters.

Vixen 5th October 2021 06:25 AM

So Dominic Raab has told the Tory conference the Human Rights Act needs to be got rid of because, citing an example, some foreign thug who beat up his wife was allowed to stay in the UK because...wait for it...'he wanted his right to family life'. <fx thunderous aplause>

The only people benefitting from the human rights act are bloody foreigners who beat up their wives. Bloody bastards.

Then there is sentencing: people who get imprisoned for violence or sexual offences get out of prison half-way through their sentence. 'This is wrong!' <fx thunderous aplause>

So now Dominic Raab will ensure all such offenders will not get out half way through.

And this increases conviction rates, how?

sphenisc 5th October 2021 06:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vixen (Post 13620171)
So Dominic Raab has told the Tory conference the Human Rights Act needs to be got rid of because, citing an example, some foreign thug who beat up his wife was allowed to stay in the UK because...wait for it...'he wanted his right to family life'. <fx thunderous aplause>

The only people benefitting from the human rights act are bloody foreigners who beat up their wives. Bloody bastards.

Then there is sentencing: people who get imprisoned for violence or sexual offences get out of prison half-way through their sentence. 'This is wrong!' <fx thunderous aplause>

So now Dominic Raab will ensure all such offenders will not get out half way through.

And this increases conviction rates, how?

It doesn't. Now look up recidivism and deterrence.

The Don 5th October 2021 07:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vixen (Post 13620171)
So now Dominic Raab will ensure all such offenders will not get out half way through.

And this increases conviction rates, how?

Prison officers may find their jobs getting a lot more difficult.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sphenisc (Post 13620191)
It doesn't. Now look up recidivism and deterrence.

For right-wingers it's only ever about punishment never about rehabilitation and preventing recidivism.

Mojo 5th October 2021 07:56 AM

This morning I saw Boris on TV complaining about the amount of time it takes cases to come to court. I’m sure it’s nothing to do with the last decade’s-worth of cuts to the criminal justice system.

Captain_Swoop 5th October 2021 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mojo (Post 13620244)
This morning I saw Boris on TV complaining about the amount of time it takes cases to come to court. Iím sure itís nothing to do with the last decadeís-worth of cuts to the criminal justice system.

He seemed to be blaming it on the defence.

KDLarsen 5th October 2021 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vixen (Post 13620171)
So Dominic Raab has told the Tory conference the Human Rights Act needs to be got rid of because, citing an example, some foreign thug who beat up his wife was allowed to stay in the UK because...wait for it...'he wanted his right to family life'. <fx thunderous aplause>

The only people benefitting from the human rights act are bloody foreigners who beat up their wives. Bloody bastards.

Then there is sentencing: people who get imprisoned for violence or sexual offences get out of prison half-way through their sentence. 'This is wrong!' <fx thunderous aplause>

So now Dominic Raab will ensure all such offenders will not get out half way through.

And this increases conviction rates, how?

And to the surprise of absolutely nobody, Raab was telling porkies (from a lengthy piece by PA Media:
Quote:

Parris appealed and in 2009 the immigration tribunal allowed him to stay, noting that he had spent 17 years in the country – at the time he was aged 21 – and had “close family in this country including his mother, sisters, brother, cousin, nieces and nephews, uncle and aunt”.

In the Telegraph article two years later, his former partner said Parris had “rarely” seen his daughter and had only started seeing her more often once the court case started.

But at the original appeal, she told the tribunal that while they were no longer in a relationship he was a “good and caring father” and the judges said she and Parris “appear[ed] to be on good terms”.
On top of that, the case already has already lead to changes in the law enacted in 2014. And on top of that, as noted by several, if you have to cite a 12 year old case to argue that something is flawed, maybe it isn't.

Shades of Theresa May telling a similar story about someone being permitted to stay because he owned a cat, when in reality it was due to him being in a long term relationship with the cat's owner...

Vixen 5th October 2021 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KDLarsen (Post 13620578)
And to the surprise of absolutely nobody, Raab was telling porkies (from a lengthy piece by PA Media:


On top of that, the case already has already lead to changes in the law enacted in 2014. And on top of that, as noted by several, if you have to cite a 12 year old case to argue that something is flawed, maybe it isn't.

Shades of Theresa May telling a similar story about someone being permitted to stay because he owned a cat, when in reality it was due to him being in a long term relationship with the cat's owner...

The argument against the Human Rights Act is always presented in such a way to ensure that people are left with the impression that only 'illegals', 'hate preachers' and foreigners benefit from it.

People then believe that getting rid of the HRA won't affect them.

I recall one workplace case were a bankrupt who was being evicted to liquidate his assets and pay off his creditors employed a lawyer to argue that this impinged on his human rights as he had a five-year-old child who was autistic and needed to continue living in the home. He won his case ('Hans' ).

Other bankrupts used this as precedent case law and many were successful in being able to stay in their home without the liquidators getting their hands on it, but it was normally only until the kids were 16.

On other occasions when I mentioned the HRA to lawyers, I was told that "You can't use that argument as judges tend to think you are a bit nutty if you mention 'Human Rights'". Certainly although technically we have human rights, it is not taken seriously by the courts. It's a token concept. So there is this cynical attitude that the HRA is just there for criminal types to 'play the system' and unsavoury foreigners who want to evade deportation.

Ordinary citizens just don't realise that without the HRA they and their kids could just be brutally thrown out into the streets and the courts (and the government) couldn't care less if they have their schooling disrupted and have to be dragged around from one hotel room to another.

Carrot Flower King 6th October 2021 03:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vixen (Post 13620171)

Then there is sentencing: people who get imprisoned for violence or sexual offences get out of prison half-way through their sentence. 'This is wrong!' <fx thunderous aplause>

So now Dominic Raab will ensure all such offenders will not get out half way through.

And this increases conviction rates, how?

Peerhaps Raab needs to be reminded which party has been in power for the last 11 years and ask them why they didn't do anything about it? When he's finished looking up the correct definition of "misogyny"? I'm sure BlowJob, with his classical "education" might have been able to help.

Captain_Swoop 6th October 2021 04:21 AM

Boris: "Otters are returning to rivers from which they have been absent for decades, beavers that have not been seen on some rivers since Tudor times are now back.

"Build back beaver," he says.

Captain_Swoop 6th October 2021 05:18 AM

Dominic Raab on BBC Breakfast ‘Misogyny is absolutely wrong, whether it’s a man against a woman, or a woman against a man’

GlennB 6th October 2021 05:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop (Post 13621131)
Boris: "Otters are returning to rivers from which they have been absent for decades, beavers that have not been seen on some rivers since Tudor times are now back.

"Build back beaver," he says.

"Shocking state of English rivers revealed as all of them fail pollution tests" link

Lothian 6th October 2021 05:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GlennB (Post 13621159)
"Shocking state of English rivers revealed as all of them fail pollution tests" link

But now we are free of the EU framework we are able to ensure that all our rivers* fall under a new UK water safety standard. How fantastic will that be?



* Yes even the most polluted.

wobs 6th October 2021 06:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GlennB (Post 13621159)
"Shocking state of English rivers revealed as all of them fail pollution tests" link

Key bit in article:
Quote:

Figures released by the Environment Agency show for the first time that no river has achieved good chemical status, suggesting pollution from sewage discharge, chemicals and agriculture are having a huge impact on river quality. In 2016, 97% of rivers were judged to have good chemical status, though the standard of tests used this time was tougher.
Discharges probably haven't got worse, but the standard has changed.

Can't comment on agricultural run off though.

I can say we still are subject to improvements that the EU are imposing currently when it comes to discharges, which will bring a slight improvement, but will hardly be measureable.

I should also add that the ecological scoring looks at things like the river banks. So the river near us won't improve on that score unless you get rid of the wharfs and flood defences that are in the middle of the city.

Carrot Flower King 6th October 2021 07:51 AM

When a Tory PM's conference speech is derided as "bombastic but vacuous and economically illiterate" by the head of research at the Adam Smith Institute - https://www.theguardian.com/business...-boris-johnson - you kinda get the idea that those who are nominally in charge might be a bunch of useless know-nothings.

The Don 6th October 2021 08:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carrot Flower King (Post 13621253)
When a Tory PM's conference speech is derided as "bombastic but vacuous and economically illiterate" by the head of research at the Adam Smith Institute - https://www.theguardian.com/business...-boris-johnson - you kinda get the idea that those who are nominally in charge might be a bunch of useless know-nothings.

....and yet the Great British English public still seem to prefer this group of chancers without a conscience who were prepared to let tens of thousands die unnecessarily from Covid while wasting tens of billions on useless schemes and allowing their mates to profit over Her Majesty's loyal opposition. :(

Carrot Flower King 6th October 2021 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Don (Post 13621277)
....and yet the Great British English public still seem to prefer this group of chancers without a conscience who were prepared to let tens of thousands die unnecessarily from Covid while wasting tens of billions on useless schemes and allowing their mates to profit over Her Majesty's loyal opposition. :(

Quite so.

Last night's PM had a vox pop from a couple of places including Blyth (just about 7 miles that <----- a-way), which was scary for the amount of latitude folk were giving BlowJob and his ship of fools. The amount of ignoring that the **** show of Brexit was brought about by them, that the unpreparedness for Covid and the rubbish responses were all down to his laziness (never heard of Cygnus, eh, BlowJob?) and all the rest reached the level of wilfull ignorance (or Proudly Wrong, as Joe M puts it in other contexts).

Carrot Flower King 6th October 2021 10:00 AM

Mind, this belief in BlowJob isn't helped by the utter craven failure of media.

I've just heard on PM a section of his speech in which he was blethering about otters and beavers and making out that their recovery and re-introduction was to do with his party, which is an utter lie. They then cut to Davies and a couple of pundits talking about his speech and no-one mentioned the obvious lies, let alone the misleadings, fact bendings and the rest: it was all treated as fact and truth.

If no ****** is going to publicly call out this level of BS, what are many of them there for?

Captain_Swoop 6th October 2021 06:55 PM

Dominic Raab is being widely criticised for being thick, but, to be fair to him, he is also a ****.

The Don 7th October 2021 03:41 AM

Hmmmmmm, it seems that "Levelling Up" may be facing some headwinds.

Universal Credit recipients will be £20 a week worse off when the uplift is removed.

Energy prices are due to rise significantly:

Quote:

The warning came as analysts predicted that household energy bills could rise by hundreds of pounds next year.

They said the energy price cap, which protects domestic consumers, could soar by £400 in the spring.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58824121

Council Tax is due to go up:

Quote:

Council tax in England could rise by as much as £220 per year within three years, researchers have said.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58822666

Well off people like Mrs Don and I aren't affected by Universal Credit and can easily afford those price rises. Even if we couldn't easily afford them, we could cancel our gym membership, eat out less often or switch to cheaper brands. People who are barely getting by (or currently aren't) don't have those options. :(

Apparently Boris Johnson isn't worried about the supply chain issues and price rises - they're simply symptoms of a booming economy - but I think that a lot of Conservative-voting pensioners are very worried right now.

Carrot Flower King 7th October 2021 03:53 AM

Just in case anyone missed it - https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...ng-local-pride - here's what you need to know about "levelling up".

If you don't understand after Neil O'Brien has explained it all to you, well, I just don't know what to tell you...

Captain_Swoop 7th October 2021 04:31 AM

Conservative MP Sir Peter Bottomley on LBC speaking about the struggles of living on an MP’s salary, calling it "desperately difficult" for some.
“I don’t know how they manage. It’s really grim.”

I remember the days when I could go for a night in the pub, have fish and chips afterwards, get the bus home and still have change from £81,932

The Don 7th October 2021 05:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop (Post 13622069)
Conservative MP Sir Peter Bottomley on LBC speaking about the struggles of living on an MPís salary, calling it "desperately difficult" for some.
ďI donít know how they manage. Itís really grim.Ē

I remember the days when I could go for a night in the pub, have fish and chips afterwards, get the bus home and still have change from £81,932

Ah, but back then there was little or no scrutiny over expenses so you didn't have to fund your duck-house refurbishment out of your own pocket. ;)

Lukraak_Sisser 7th October 2021 08:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop (Post 13622069)
Conservative MP Sir Peter Bottomley on LBC speaking about the struggles of living on an MPís salary, calling it "desperately difficult" for some.
ďI donít know how they manage. Itís really grim.Ē

I remember the days when I could go for a night in the pub, have fish and chips afterwards, get the bus home and still have change from £81,932

Wait, that's not a Daily Mash article but real?

Carrot Flower King 7th October 2021 09:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop (Post 13622069)
Conservative MP Sir Peter Bottomley on LBC speaking about the struggles of living on an MPís salary, calling it "desperately difficult" for some.
ďI donít know how they manage. Itís really grim.Ē

I remember the days when I could go for a night in the pub, have fish and chips afterwards, get the bus home and still have change from £81,932

In which case he'll be entirely behind the nursing unions (even including the sodding useless RCN) balloting for strike action over pay, given all the pay freezes and redundancies, cuts to necessary work expenses for community staff and the like over the last 11 years (which I cannot recall him opposing). Come on Peter!


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 11:27 AM.

Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2015-22, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.