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-   -   Theists – Give me a reason to believe. (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=334798)

ynot 14th February 2019 01:16 PM

Theists – Give me a reason to believe.
 
I don’t believe in a god because I can’t think of a single reason why I should (and many reasons why I shouldn’t).

Some kind of evidence would be a good reason to believe, but that doesn’t seem to be possible, so what other reason(s) is their to believe in a god (serious question)?

Thor 2 14th February 2019 01:34 PM

Makes you feel all warm and fuzzy.:)

ynot 14th February 2019 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thor 2 (Post 12600821)
Makes you feel all warm and fuzzy.:)

Already get that from cuddling a woman I love.

theprestige 14th February 2019 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ynot (Post 12600831)
Already get that from cuddling a woman I love.

Also, Thor 2 isn't a theist.

Trebuchet 14th February 2019 01:41 PM

Because if you bet wrong, you'll go to hell!
And you can feel superior to everyone who doesn't believe exactly the same as you.

theprestige 14th February 2019 01:42 PM

Anyway, the best I can come up with is that you've had a personal experience of the theos, and it's left you with no other rational option but to believe.

I really don't think there's any other reason that makes any sense at all.

ynot 14th February 2019 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12600834)
Also, Thor 2 isn't a theist.

Think he was once. Are you a theist? Can you help me?

theprestige 14th February 2019 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trebuchet (Post 12600837)
Because if you bet wrong, you'll go to hell!

Came to the thread for Pascal's Wager. Was not disappointed.

Quote:

And you can feel superior to everyone who doesn't believe exactly the same as you.
If there's one thing I've learned from this forum, it's that theism is absolutely not a requirement for that attitude.

theprestige 14th February 2019 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ynot (Post 12600841)
Think he was once.

I don't see how that matters to your question.

Quote:

Are you a theist?
Yes. I suspect it doesn't actually matter to this thread, though.

Quote:

Can you help me?
I think you don't actually want or need help. Maybe this thread should be in Community? Or "Humor"?

ynot 14th February 2019 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12600839)
Anyway, the best I can come up with is that you've had a personal experience of the theos, and it's left you with no other rational option but to believe.

I really don't think there's any other reason that makes any sense at all.

I haven't had a personal experience of the theos, how do I get one? Even if I did have one, I don't see that would leave me with no other rational option but to believe. A more rational option that would make any sense to me would be to conclude that the theos experience was my mind playing tricks on me.

Even if I did have an experience of the theos and believed it was genuine, how would I know which of the many theos's on offer it was?

Thor 2 14th February 2019 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ynot (Post 12600841)
Think he was once. Are you a theist? Can you help me?


Noooooo. Threw that **** out the window when I was 16.

ynot 14th February 2019 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12600851)
I don't see how that matters to your question.

Yes. I suspect it doesn't actually matter to this thread, though.

I think you don't actually want or need help. Maybe this thread should be in Community? Or "Humor"?

I've never been a theist, a person that has been a theist has experiential knowledge I don't have, but would appreciate learning about.

Well "doubting Thomas", if there is a good reason to believe in a god I definitely and genuinely would like to know what it is.

ynot 14th February 2019 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thor 2 (Post 12600868)
Noooooo. Threw that **** out the window when I was 16.

I was asking theprestige the question.

Thor 2 14th February 2019 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ynot (Post 12600877)
I was asking theprestige the question.


Yes I get that now. I blame the early hour and maybe some ambiguity in where the question was asked.:)

Interesting that theprestige is a theist. I wonder what flavour?

ynot 14th February 2019 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trebuchet (Post 12600837)
Because if you bet wrong, you'll go to hell!
And you can feel superior to everyone who doesn't believe exactly the same as you.

Behave yourself or I will tell! :mad:

Dr. Keith 14th February 2019 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thor 2 (Post 12600893)
Interesting that theprestige is a theist. I wonder what flavour?

So, you didn't click on the link?

ynot 14th February 2019 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thor 2 (Post 12600893)
Yes I get that now. I blame the early hour and maybe some ambiguity in where the question was asked.:)

Interesting that theprestige is a theist. I wonder what flavour?

Perhaps forum members should declare "theist" or "atheist" under their forum name instead of the silly and pointless "illuminator, philosopher"? I guess some would want "agnostic" or "undecided" as if that was a middle position.

I don't care what flavour theists are for my question.

theprestige 14th February 2019 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ynot (Post 12600863)
I haven't had a personal experience of the theos, how do I get one?

That's entirely between you and the theos, if there even is one.

Quote:

Even if I did have one, I don't see that would leave me with no other rational option but to believe. A more rational option that would make any sense to me would be to conclude that the theos experience was my mind playing tricks on me.
I guess it would depend on the nature of the experience, and the nature of your mind.

Quote:

Even if I did have an experience of the theos and believed it was genuine, how would I know which of the many theos's on offer it was?
Also entirely between you and the theos. Obviously you're not going to experience a nonexistent theos. Whatever the being you experience, that's the being you'd believe in. Nobody who experiences Buddha is going to react by believing in an Allah they've never met.

I think you're making this a lot harder than it needs to be.

The Atheist 14th February 2019 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ynot (Post 12600908)
Perhaps forum members should declare "theist" or "atheist" under their forum name instead of the silly and pointless "illuminator, philosopher"? I guess some would want "agnostic" as if that was a middle position.

Sounds like a terrible idea to me.

theprestige 14th February 2019 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ynot (Post 12600872)
I've never been a theist, a person that has been a theist has experiential knowledge I don't have, but would appreciate learning about.

'k.

Quote:

Well "doubting Thomas", if there is a good reason to believe in a god I definitely and genuinely would like to know what it is.
I've already given you the best reason I have. If that doesn't satisfy, then you should probably discard it and move on to other respondents.

ynot 14th February 2019 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Atheist (Post 12600916)
Sounds like a terrible idea to me.

But you're just a nasty sceptic ;) (wasn't a serious idea)

theprestige 14th February 2019 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thor 2 (Post 12600893)
Interesting that theprestige is a theist.

You have no idea just how interesting it is.

Quote:

I wonder what flavour?
Chocolate.

ynot 14th February 2019 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12600921)
'k.

I've already given you the best reason I have. If that doesn't satisfy, then you should probably discard it and move on to other respondents.

And I thank you for giving that reason. I was hoping for a better reason, but in truth not expecting one, but one lives in hope :)

ynot 14th February 2019 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12600913)
That's entirely between you and the theos, if there even is one.

You believe in a "theos/god" you're not sure even exists :confused:

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12600913)
I guess it would depend on the nature of the experience, and the nature of your mind.

Not knowing what "experience of the theos" would even be like is merely the first hurdle.

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12600913)
Also entirely between you and the theos. Obviously you're not going to experience a nonexistent theos. Whatever the being you experience, that's the being you'd believe in. Nobody who experiences Buddha is going to react by believing in an Allah they've never met.

Not actually experiencing a non-existent god doesn't stop anyone from believing they do/did.

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12600913)
I think you're making this a lot harder than it needs to be.

If there is an actual god, then that god is making it harder than it needs to be (I wonder why it would).

theprestige 14th February 2019 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ynot (Post 12600965)
You believe in a "theos/god" you're not sure even exists : confused :

If I were sure, it would be knowledge, not belief. But the qualification was actually for you. You're the one that's not sure a theos even exists. I didn't want to pressure you by seeming to beg that question.

Quote:

Not knowing what "experience of the theos" would even be like is merely the first hurdle I have.
It's only a hurdle if you're trying to get to the other side.

Saul of Tarsus experienced God as a voice and blindness on the road to Damascus. Maybe that'll be how it is for you.

On the other hand, C. S. Lewis describes an internal process that was part intellectual and part emotional. Maybe your own experience will be like his.

Or maybe it'll be something different entirely. Whatever it is, it's likely to be intensely personal and ultimately private. You'll know it when you see it. Assuming it ever happens at all. In the meantime, I wouldn't worry about it too much.

Quote:

That you're not going to actually experience a non-existent god doesn't stop anyone from believing they did.
Sure. But that's different from believing in a god that does exist and that you have actually experienced.

To be honest, I don't know if there's a way for you to even tell the difference between the two. If there is, it'll be personal to you, and there's really not much I can tell you about it, especially in the hypothetical.

Quote:

If there is an actual god, then that god is making it harder than it needs to be.
Or they're making it exactly as hard as it needs to be. Again, I wouldn't worry about it too much, unless it actually happens to you.

ynot 14th February 2019 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12600993)
If I were sure, it would be knowledge, not belief.

Only irrational belief is devoid of at least some knowledge.

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12600993)
It's only a hurdle if you're trying to get to the other side.

My hurdle isn't trying to get to a place I don't think actually exists. The hurdle is in trying to understand why so many mature, educated and otherwise sane people continue to believe in ancient myths and superstitions that an other place and a god do actually exist.

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12600993)
Sure. But that's different from believing in a god that does exist and that you have actually experienced.

If you have actually experience a god that actually exists then you would know that god actually exists, not merely believe it does. Seems to me you merely believe a god exists and merely believe you have experienced it.

theprestige 14th February 2019 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ynot (Post 12601011)
My hurdle isn't trying to get to a place I don't think actually exists. The hurdle is in trying to understand why so many mature, educated and otherwise sane people continue to believe in ancient myths and superstitions that such a place and a god do actually exist.

And there it is.

Didn't even take us more than a page to get there, either.

ynot 14th February 2019 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12600993)
Or they're making it exactly as hard as it needs to be.

Not that it matters, but can I take it you're a polytheist?

ynot 14th February 2019 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12601013)
And there it is.

Didn't even take us more than a page to get there, either.

If you misread my OP as being "I'm looking for god" then that's not my fault.

theprestige 14th February 2019 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ynot (Post 12601037)
Not that it matters, but can I take it you're a polytheist?

You can do anything you want. You probably shouldn't, though.

theprestige 14th February 2019 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ynot (Post 12601043)
If you misread my OP as being "I'm looking for god" then that's not my fault.

Don't worry. That possibility never even crossed my mind.

ynot 14th February 2019 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thor 2 (Post 12601019)
@ ynot,

Never really expected to get much sense out of theprestige on this did you?

Theism and theistic beliefs have never made sense to me. I wasn't so much expecting as naively hoping a theist could provide something (anything) that might make it all seem less nonsense.

I appreciate theprestige's contributions regardless.

theprestige 14th February 2019 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ynot (Post 12601057)
Theism and theistic beliefs have never made sense to me. I wasn't so much expecting as naively hoping a theist could provide something (anything) that might make it all seem less nonsense.

If you sincerely want this, then here is my serious recommendation:

Talk to a theist you know personally, and that you respect. By this I mean, respect as a person, aside from their religion. Are they kind? Trustworthy? Fair? Etc. Whatever qualities you look for in a friend, and hope for in a family member.

Ask them about their faith. Where it comes from and why they keep it. Attend services with them (or whatever passes for services in their practice). Ask them questions about what happens there, and what it means.

Whatever religion is, however faith works, whether it can ever make sense to you... You'll learn a lot more about these things, by interacting with real people in the real world. But, in the name of all that is holy (so to speak), do not try to get these answers from faceless names on an Internet discussion forum.

sphenisc 14th February 2019 03:37 PM

https://www.iep.utm.edu/ont-arg/

ynot 14th February 2019 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12601065)
If you sincerely want this, then here is my serious recommendation:

Talk to a theist you know personally, and that you respect. By this I mean, respect as a person, aside from their religion. Are they kind? Trustworthy? Fair? Etc. Whatever qualities you look for in a friend, and hope for in a family member.

Ask them about their faith. Where it comes from and why they keep it. Attend services with them (or whatever passes for services in their practice). Ask them questions about what happens there, and what it means.

Whatever religion is, however faith works, whether it can ever make sense to you... You'll learn a lot more about these things, by interacting with real people in the real world. But, in the name of all that is holy (so to speak), do not try to get these answers from faceless names on an Internet discussion forum.

Thanks for the suggestions but I've already done all that. I've many religious and other paranormal believer friends but none have provided anything I consider to be of any credible value. Guess I should just concede it doesn't exist.

theprestige 14th February 2019 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ynot (Post 12601074)
Thanks for the suggestions but I've already done all that. I've many religious and other paranormal believer friends but none have provided anything I consider to be of any credible value. Guess I should just concede it doesn't exist.

I guess so.

And that's okay.

ynot 14th February 2019 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sphenisc (Post 12601066)

Thanks, but to me the Ontological Argument is one of the silliest (that's being kind to it).

MRC_Hans 14th February 2019 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12601065)
If you sincerely want this, then here is my serious recommendation:

Talk to a theist you know personally, and that you respect. By this I mean, respect as a person, aside from their religion. Are they kind? Trustworthy? Fair? Etc. Whatever qualities you look for in a friend, and hope for in a family member.

Nice, but how does that qualify them as authorities on theism?

Quote:

Ask them about their faith. Where it comes from and why they keep it. Attend services with them (or whatever passes for services in their practice). Ask them questions about what happens there, and what it means.
Ah. And it doesn't matter which faith they support?

Quote:

Whatever religion is, however faith works, whether it can ever make sense to you... You'll learn a lot more about these things, by interacting with real people in the real world. But, in the name of all that is holy (so to speak), do not try to get these answers from faceless names on an Internet discussion forum.
Really? How are those people less qualified than anybody else?

Hans

theprestige 14th February 2019 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MRC_Hans (Post 12601090)
Nice, but how does that qualify them as authorities on theism?

They are authorities on their own experience. When it comes to questions of personal belief, I think that's about as good as it gets.

The idea is to have a personal relationship with a real human being, in the real world, and learn from each other in that context.

Quote:

Ah. And it doesn't matter which faith they support?
Not for ynot's purpose, as I understand it.

Quote:

Really? How are those people less qualified than anybody else?
It's not about qualifications, but about quality of relationship.

Quote:

Hans
Thanks. I had no idea who I was responding to.

arthwollipot 14th February 2019 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ynot (Post 12600791)
I don’t believe in a god because I can’t think of a single reason why I should (and many reasons why I shouldn’t).

Some kind of evidence would be a good reason to believe, but that doesn’t seem to be possible, so what other reason(s) is their to believe in a god (serious question)?

You wouldn't accept any reason they'd be capable of giving.


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