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-   -   One less confederate monument to vandalize... (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=321074)

kookbreaker 16th March 2019 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Myriad (Post 12634918)
It/they might try, but would have a hard time standing up to First Amendment challenge.
.

Not like that would stop them from trying.

dann 16th March 2019 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Checkmite (Post 12634864)
DeKalb County in Georgia, forbidden by state law from removing a Confederate monument in its town center, has decided to install a marker in front of it, adding factual context:

Quote:

“In 1908, this monument was erected at the DeKalb County Courthouse to glorify the ‘lost cause’ of the Confederacy and the Confederate soldiers who fought for it. It was privately funded by the A. Evans Camp of Confederate Veterans and the Agnes Lee Chapter of the United Daughters of the Confederacy. Located in a prominent public space, its presence bolstered white supremacy and faulty history, suggesting that the cause for the Civil War rested on southern Honor and States Rights rhetoric—instead of its real catalyst—American slavery. This monument and similar ones also were created to intimidate African Americans and limit their full participation in social and political life of their communities. It fostered a culture of segregation by implying that public spaces and public memory belonged to Whites. Since State law prohibited local governments from removing Confederate statues, DeKalb County contextualized this monument in 2019. DeKalb County officials and citizens believe that public history can be of service when it challenges us to broaden our sense of boundaries and includes community discussions of the victories and shortcomings of our shared histories.”


Great text! Very educational. And I see no reason why it should be limited to Confederate monuments.
When I visited the Vietnam Veterans Memorial in DC, "2-acre (8,093.71 m˛)", the guide couldn't answer my question about how many acres it would have required to include the names of the Vietnamese casualties. Considering that it's a memorial for people who lost their lives in a war that the USA and its allies lost in spite of killing hundreds of thousands of Vietnamese, at least a marker with that kind of information would seem to be appropriate.

bruto 16th March 2019 01:11 PM

I like that DeKalb solution. I'm guessing that preventing it would open up a can of worms, preventing other new monuments as well, or requiring a first-amendment busting pre-approval process. I think that contextualizing such monuments is superior to simply whisking them away. It names names and makes the private and partisan authorship of the monuments more obvious. The defenders of Confederate lore may well come to regret that they forced people forever to think about their lies instead of letting them slink quietly off.

kookbreaker 16th March 2019 01:15 PM

I’m curious if some Lost causer tries to vandalize the sign in the coming months.

8enotto 16th March 2019 01:35 PM

I would like to see the statues preserved for future generations in some museum one day.

It is part of American history and all we need is a mature way of looking at them. Not with ideology or a bias/regret to what could have been. Much like we look at Roman sculpture now.

The past is the past and we need to look forward and act in a way to prevent the errors of the past.
For that we need to remember it as it truly happened. No editing or rewrites to make us feel better now.
I doubt we as humans can do that now but it's something to work towards.

Checkmite 16th March 2019 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 8enotto (Post 12635021)
The past is the past and we need to look forward and act in a way to prevent the errors of the past.
For that we need to remember it as it truly happened. No editing or rewrites to make us feel better now.

The monuments and the purple captions about "honor" and "duty" that adorn them represent just such an edit or rewrite. Efforts like DeKalb's, combat this historical revisionism and tell the cold truth that the romanticized statues were created to hide.

JoeMorgue 16th March 2019 04:39 PM

Okay what words in what sequence have to be said to drag the Confederate apologists kicking and screaming out of this whole "Taking down statues is erasing history" nonsense?

jimbob 16th March 2019 05:15 PM

I'd like a few statues of glorious Confederate leaders shortly after meeting Dudalb's avatar

Hlafordlaes 16th March 2019 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 8enotto (Post 12635021)
I would like to see the statues preserved for future generations in some museum one day.

It is part of American history and all we need is a mature way of looking at them. Not with ideology or a bias/regret to what could have been. Much like we look at Roman sculpture now.

The past is the past and we need to look forward and act in a way to prevent the errors of the past.
For that we need to remember it as it truly happened. No editing or rewrites to make us feel better now.
I doubt we as humans can do that now but it's something to work towards.

In that case, place them in a wing of a broader slavery museum, ensuring their inscriptions read as the foul, lying propaganda they are. Perhaps they should come after a walk through that horrifyingly eloquent new Legacy Museum. Make sure that any fictitious inscriptions claiming honor, noble cause, or personal glory ring sickly hollow and disgustingly shameful, heaping ever more condemnation upon those who defend them even now. Deadly, dirty little lies and deadly, dirty little liars who worked so hard in the cowardly shadows to poison history and hide their skulduggery deserve nothing but scorn and a boot to the face. Suffice it, then, that their financiers and fans are not put in stocks, whipped, put in prison camps, worked to death, and spat upon; i.e., live in the flesh the very traditions and heritage they love to defend.
tl;dr: Uh, no.

kookbreaker 16th March 2019 07:36 PM

I’d like to know what museum is going to hold a single one of these monuments, let alone the lot of them. Most history museums have limited space to show actual interesting stuff and limited storage.

Maybe find an old barn somewhere deep in modern lost causer territory and just pile them in. Stack them like cordwood if they don’t fit. Then charge Neo-Confederates $20 to come in and pray at their ancestor worship altars. Don’t leave any explanation plaquards, just let them try o figure out which one was to intimidate black voters in Mobile and which was celebrating white supremacy in Charlotte.

For fun, mix up the heads of the ones of Confederate leaders. See if anyone even notices.

bruto 16th March 2019 07:51 PM

8enotto, while it might seem a good idea to put the monuments in a museum or better yet as Hlafordlaes suggests to put them in a contextual museum, remember that one reason DeKalb has chosen what it has is that the removal of those statues from their public places has been outlawed by the State of Georgia.

I would also add, though, that as the De Kalb statement makes clear, the prominent public placement of the monuments was an important part of their function, not as monuments to the fallen soldiers of the war, but to postwar racism and the lame and shameful apologetics of those who sought to reduce the sting of defeat by injecting the appearance of heroism and holiness to their ongoing hatred. Simply to remove them to a museum, while it has its merits, removes some of the offense they cause, but does little to address their pernicious secondary purpose.

Confederate monuments have long been a conspicuous, intrusive presence in their public places, a painful reminder to the oppressed that their battle was never fully won. Perhaps it's appropriate that they, together with correction, remain conspicuous rather than being hidden away in a back room or courtyard.

It would be nice to think that the historical distance of the Civil War puts its monuments in the same category as those of the ancient Romans, but we see daily evidence that it is not so. The slaves are all dead now, and so are the children of the slaves, but not, perhaps, the grandchildren; and many of us have lived through years of legal segregation, extra-legal discrimination, and though it's become less fashionable, we live still with bigotry and its awful consequences. In simple terms, racism still kills. We can, perhaps, look at the statues of the ancients in the abstract and supply whatever context we desire, but not so the statues of our unending strife.

jimbob 17th March 2019 02:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bruto (Post 12635394)
8enotto, while it might seem a good idea to put the monuments in a museum or better yet as Hlafordlaes suggests to put them in a contextual museum, remember that one reason DeKalb has chosen what it has is that the removal of those statues from their public places has been outlawed by the State of Georgia.

I would also add, though, that as the De Kalb statement makes clear, the prominent public placement of the monuments was an important part of their function, not as monuments to the fallen soldiers of the war, but to postwar racism and the lame and shameful apologetics of those who sought to reduce the sting of defeat by injecting the appearance of heroism and holiness to their ongoing hatred. Simply to remove them to a museum, while it has its merits, removes some of the offense they cause, but does little to address their pernicious secondary purpose.

Confederate monuments have long been a conspicuous, intrusive presence in their public places, a painful reminder to the oppressed that their battle was never fully won. Perhaps it's appropriate that they, together with correction, remain conspicuous rather than being hidden away in a back room or courtyard.

It would be nice to think that the historical distance of the Civil War puts its monuments in the same category as those of the ancient Romans, but we see daily evidence that it is not so. The slaves are all dead now, and so are the children of the slaves, but not, perhaps, the grandchildren; and many of us have lived through years of legal segregation, extra-legal discrimination, and though it's become less fashionable, we live still with bigotry and its awful consequences. In simple terms, racism still kills. We can, perhaps, look at the statues of the ancients in the abstract and supply whatever context we desire, but not so the statues of our unending strife.

There are people working, who were born into segregation.

quadraginta 17th March 2019 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bruto (Post 12635002)
I like that DeKalb solution. I'm guessing that preventing it would open up a can of worms, preventing other new monuments as well, or requiring a first-amendment busting pre-approval process. I think that contextualizing such monuments is superior to simply whisking them away. It names names and makes the private and partisan authorship of the monuments more obvious. The defenders of Confederate lore may well come to regret that they forced people forever to think about their lies instead of letting them slink quietly off.


The plaque was inspired by the fact that racist politicians had engineered racist laws which made it impossible to whisk such statues away. It is no coincidence that these statues were erected in front of the halls of law and justice. They were meant to intimidate, and as long as they are still present in such locations they will continue to do so.

The very fact that laws have been passed (recently) specifically as barriers to their removal only emphasizes that.

In a better world, these statues would be replaced by such plaques, and the statues themselves consigned to a less visible location. Hopefully along with similar plaques to accompany them.

ponderingturtle 18th March 2019 02:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kookbreaker (Post 12635382)
I’d like to know what museum is going to hold a single one of these monuments, let alone the lot of them. Most history museums have limited space to show actual interesting stuff and limited storage.

Well Storm King would be able to fit a lot of them, they wouldn't but I am sure somewhere you could buy up some farms and put them in feilds.

https://stormking.org/

ponderingturtle 18th March 2019 02:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimbob (Post 12635597)
There are people working, who were born into segregation.

There is plenty of real segregation now we just got better at pretending it doesn't exist.

SuburbanTurkey 13th February 2020 06:46 AM

Big update in the UNC "Silent Sam" statue controversy.

Judge overturns crooked deal in which UNC paid a pro-confederate group 2.5 million of public funds to take the statue off campus.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/educa...ederate-group/

Thanks to the hard work of activists, intense scrutiny got this case in front of a judge. The judge ruled that the pro-confederate group never had any standing in this controversy, seeing as they didn't own the statue, and vacated the settlement.

There appears to be an honest-to-god conspiracy at work here. There is increasing evidence that the UNC board was working in close collaboration with the leaders of the confederate group in order to make this "settlement" happen. There are serious questions whether board members violated their fiduciary duties by coordinating with a group planning to take hostile legal action against the university.

Quote:

For months, critics have been asking questions about the settlement, such as why the chairman of the board of governors signed it days before the lawsuit was even filed. They asked why the United Daughters of the Confederacy’s North Carolina Division, which had originally proposed that the statue be erected on campus, signed rights to the statue over to the state division of the Sons of Confederate Veterans just days before the lawsuit was filed. They questioned why university officials settled a lawsuit brought by a group that, they argued, did not have legal rights in the case.

Checkmite 28th February 2020 12:08 AM

The commandant of the US Marine Corps has forbidden the display of Confederate paraphernalia and symbols on Marine Corps installations, and ordered that any existing examples of such be removed. That means no more "rebel flag" stickers on marines' vehicles.

As the commandant himself noted, it isn't a huge problem specifically on Marines installations; but it's worth drawing a bright line and acting on it.

SuburbanTurkey 28th February 2020 05:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Checkmite (Post 13004379)
The commandant of the US Marine Corps has forbidden the display of Confederate paraphernalia and symbols on Marine Corps installations, and ordered that any existing examples of such be removed. That means no more "rebel flag" stickers on marines' vehicles.

As the commandant himself noted, it isn't a huge problem specifically on Marines installations; but it's worth drawing a bright line and acting on it.

There's been a lot of reporting about US military servicemen with affiliations to white supremacy groups. It's a real problem and a serious threat to morale.

I see getting rid of all this confederacy garbage as an attempt to stamp this out and send a clear signal.

Disbelief 28th February 2020 06:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey (Post 13004548)
There's been a lot of reporting about US military servicemen with affiliations to white supremacy groups. It's a real problem and a serious threat to morale.

I see getting rid of all this confederacy garbage as an attempt to stamp this out and send a clear signal.

Unfortunately, they've known about it for a long time and done very little. This is from when I was stationed at Pope AFB, right by Fort Bragg, coincidentally named for a Confederate general. Members of the 82nd randomly chose a black couple to murder.

https://www.nytimes.com/1997/02/28/u...-2-blacks.html

Checkmite 2nd March 2020 12:36 PM

Tulane University has removed the "Victory Bell" from in front of its auditorium. This was an old bell from the early 1800's that was donated to the University by former Louisiana governor Richard Leche in 1960. The bell was rung to celebrate victories of the university's sports teams, although it fell out of use some years ago.

Recently the bell was removed after the university learned that this particular bell had actually begun "life" as a fixture on a Louisiana plantation, and was rung as a way of giving orders to slaves in the fields.

Although the bell was not a "Confederate" monument per se, it is nevertheless an artifact of the institution of slavery, which puts it in the same class in my opinion. The one difference - again, in my opinion - is that unlike the various monuments and statues that are the usual subjects of posts in this thread which were effectively mass-produced and installed by the thousands, this particular artifact is of a type that it would seem not many examples (that are available to the public) still exist, and therefore it would have some actual educational value as a museum piece.


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