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-   -   Bitcoin - Part 3 (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=336407)

psionl0 8th November 2019 03:10 AM

GOTO 269

psionl0 8th November 2019 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samson (Post 12885107)
Here is another way of imagining this issue.
If the price of bitcoin drops to 2k US, will you claim that this is completely unrelated to the presence of 2000 lookalikes to choose from.

Just to give this question a more detailed answer, if the price of bitcoin fell and the price of some "lookalikes" rose then that would be no coincidence.

However, that doesn't happen. When the price of bitcoin falls, so does the price of the "lookalikes".

Samson 11th November 2019 01:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by psionl0 (Post 12885781)
Just to give this question a more detailed answer, if the price of bitcoin fell and the price of some "lookalikes" rose then that would be no coincidence.

However, that doesn't happen. When the price of bitcoin falls, so does the price of the "lookalikes".

I really just watch btc eth and ripple, and have no idea how the latter 2 work, or how much money has been made. I accept it is many billions. But I will always expect them to trend towards zero, because the other 1997 coins will have equally fascinating bios, with a similar outcome going forward.
Is bitcoin like Coca Cola, or Gucchi, no. If the former, Warren Buffet would own bitcoin.

psionl0 11th November 2019 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samson (Post 12887656)
I really just watch btc eth and ripple, and have no idea how the latter 2 work, or how much money has been made. I accept it is many billions. But I will always expect them to trend towards zero, because the other 1997 coins will have equally fascinating bios, with a similar outcome going forward.
Is bitcoin like Coca Cola, or Gucchi, no. If the former, Warren Buffet would own bitcoin.

Other than the highlighted, I can't make any sense out of this word salad.

You seem to insist that if you divide a finite crypto market by infinite cryptos, you get $0 per crypto.

That just illustrates your abysmal maths. Consider the sequence {1/2, 1/4, 1/8, 1/16, . . . }: This has an infinite number of terms and a finite sum but many of the terms are an appreciable fraction of the total (not zero).

The same is true of cryptos. No matter how many are invented, most will not amount to anything and won't drag money away from the top cryptos.

Samson 13th November 2019 01:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by psionl0 (Post 12888779)
Other than the highlighted, I can't make any sense out of this word salad.

You seem to insist that if you divide a finite crypto market by infinite cryptos, you get $0 per crypto.

That just illustrates your abysmal maths. Consider the sequence {1/2, 1/4, 1/8, 1/16, . . . }: This has an infinite number of terms and a finite sum but many of the terms are an appreciable fraction of the total (not zero).

The same is true of cryptos. No matter how many are invented, most will not amount to anything and won't drag money away from the top cryptos.

I accept that zero is an unrealistic valuation, but that is all. Pet rocks are probably collectors' items.
I am looking at the world of coal fired power creating this garbage, and fires engulfing East Australia. I am not alone hoping cryptos implode, and I am certain that no one can ascribe an appropriate value, as they might do for food or shelter.

psionl0 13th November 2019 11:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samson (Post 12890503)
I accept that zero is an unrealistic valuation, but that is all.

I wish I could believe that but no doubt, you will soon go back to your "there are infinite bitcoins so bitcoins have no value" line again as if this exchange never happened. :boggled:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samson (Post 12890503)
Pet rocks are probably collectors' items.

:rolleyes:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samson (Post 12890503)
I am looking at the world of coal fired power creating this garbage, and fires engulfing East Australia. I am not alone hoping cryptos implode, and I am certain that no one can ascribe an appropriate value, as they might do for food or shelter.

The inordinate amount of energy used to mine bitcoins around the world is a serious problem. But to suggest that bitcoin is responsible for continuing coal fired power and bush fires is absolutely moronic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samson (Post 12890503)
I am not alone hoping cryptos implode, and I am certain that no one can ascribe an appropriate value, as they might do for food or shelter.

You are not the only one. The only reason why this thread has gone on churning stale arguments for so long is the number of posters who are desperately trying to talk bitcoin down. Most have gone by the way side as bitcoin continues to defy all doomsday predictions.

Samson 22nd November 2019 03:00 AM

Panic selling.
Nearing the 6k handle.
The ponzi may be imploding.

psionl0 22nd November 2019 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samson (Post 12900814)
The ponzi may be imploding.

Obviously, like everyone else before you, you have no idea what a Ponzi scheme is nor how bitcoin even remotely resembles one.

As with all the other uncritical thinkers, that doesn't matter to you as long as it is a bad word.

Samson 23rd November 2019 12:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by psionl0 (Post 12901825)
Obviously, like everyone else before you, you have no idea what a Ponzi scheme is nor how bitcoin even remotely resembles one.

As with all the other uncritical thinkers, that doesn't matter to you as long as it is a bad word.

It is a word that describes investments that support payouts to earlier investors without auditing of the underlying value of the asset.
Bitcoin conforms to a T

Samson 23rd November 2019 12:56 AM

I am pretty certain that selling right here at 7205 will reap extravagant rewards. the stop loss is tight at 7388.:cool:

Mycroft 23rd November 2019 01:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samson (Post 12901961)
It is a word that describes investments that support payouts to earlier investors without auditing of the underlying value of the asset.
Bitcoin conforms to a T

Not really.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ponzi_scheme

Although it's not a big deal using the word incorrectly.

psionl0 23rd November 2019 01:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mycroft (Post 12901977)
Although it's not a big deal using the word incorrectly.

Why not?

There is a world of difference between an ill advised investment an a fraudulent scam run by a shonky operator.

Samson 23rd November 2019 02:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by psionl0 (Post 12901983)
Why not?

There is a world of difference between an ill advised investment an a fraudulent scam run by a shonky operator.

"Craig Wright " is a transcendent genius. That is cast in stone.
Bitcoin has a natural value of zero, and Craig will either capitalise, or not because he may or may have not lost his crypto key.

Discuss: as my old fashioned exam questions were couched.

Roger Ramjets 23rd November 2019 02:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by psionl0 (Post 12901983)
Why not?

There is a world of difference between an ill advised investment an a fraudulent scam run by a shonky operator.

We won't know if Bitcoin is a Ponzi scheme or not until 'Satoshi Nakamoto' reveals his true intentions. But many actual Ponzi schemes have been run in the name of Bitcoin and other 'cryptocurrencies'.

Bernie Madoff ran a Ponzi scheme for 48 years before anyone caught on. If only Bitcoin had been around then he could been untouchable!

Samson 23rd November 2019 04:25 AM

48 years?
Intriguing.?
I fear not, for all the pain of the witless investors I feel more for Bernie Madoff.
Is suicide painless?
Craig Wright has designed a behemoth that he can cash out of if he has the crypto key. He should, the nonsense is disintegrating in beautiful fashion.

psionl0 23rd November 2019 07:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets (Post 12902018)
We won't know if Bitcoin is a Ponzi scheme or not until 'Satoshi Nakamoto' reveals his true intentions.

Assuming that 'Satoshi Nakamoto is still around, the worst 'he' could do is crash the price by selling all his holdings off at once. Even then, that wouldn't necessarily spell the end of bitcoin and whether it does or not, that stlll doesn't make bitcoin a Ponzi scheme.

I can't believe that we have to have this argument yet again about what a Ponzi scheme is.

psionl0 23rd November 2019 07:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samson (Post 12902042)
He should, the nonsense is disintegrating in beautiful fashion.

So has said every ill wisher since the beginning of the bitcoin threads. :rolleyes:

Samson 24th November 2019 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by psionl0 (Post 12902112)
So has said every ill wisher since the beginning of the bitcoin threads. :rolleyes:

Here is an eyepopping article to illustrate something quite immoral.

The site chosen for the mining operation spans more than 100 acres. When completed, it will not only be the largest Bitcoin mining facility on the planet, but also the largest single data centre in North America.

https://www.newsbtc.com/2019/11/18/t...ning-facility/

That alone is a fair reason to wish the price to drop to a level where there is no reward for this CO2 belching enterprise. And if anyone suggests that is ok because when bitcoin 21m is delivered, it will stop, I suggest there will be an immediate clone to carry it on.
And further, clean energy if it were to be used, should be employed to save the planet, not to furnish the greed of speculators.

Roger Ramjets 24th November 2019 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by psionl0 (Post 12902110)
I can't believe that we have to have this argument yet again about what a Ponzi scheme is.

Bitcoin itself is just a computer algorithm, but it has been used to implement Ponzi schemes. We still don't know if that is why 'Satoshi Nakamoto' invented it.

Ponzi Scheme
Quote:

Cryptocurrencies have been employed by scammers attempting a new generation of Ponzi schemes. For example, misuse of initial coin offerings, or "ICOs," on the Ethereum blockchain platform have been one such method, known as "smart Ponzis" per the Financial Times. The novelty of ICOs means that there is currently a lack of regulatory clarity on the classification of these financial devices, allowing scammers wide leeway to develop Ponzi schemes using these assets.

Bitcoin trading could be considered the ultimate economic bubble, since the price is based on nothing of any real value. In that way it is similar to a Ponzi scheme.
Quote:

Economic bubbles are also similar to a Ponzi scheme in that one participant gets paid by contributions from a subsequent participant until inevitable collapse. A bubble involves ever-rising prices in an open market (for example stock, housing, cryptocurrency, or tulip bulbs) where prices rise because buyers bid more, and buyers bid more because prices are rising. Bubbles are often said to be based on the "greater fool" theory. As with the Ponzi scheme, the price exceeds the intrinsic value of the item,

In popular speech an object may be associated with something else which is not literally identical, but similar enough to get the point across. While technically Bitcoin is an asset bubble, what do you call an 'asset' that was created from nothing to make obscene profit for its inventor, and only increases in 'value' due to new 'investors'? Perhaps we need a new name for it - something that doesn't have the words 'coin' or 'currency' in it, and more accurately describes its true nature.

Roger Ramjets 24th November 2019 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samson (Post 12903230)
And if anyone suggests that is ok because when bitcoin 21m is delivered, it will stop, I suggest there will be an immediate clone to carry it on.

That has already happened.

List of cryptocurrencies
Quote:

The number of cryptocurrencies available over the internet as of 19 August 2018 is over 1600 and growing. A new cryptocurrency can be created at any time...

As of 15 December 2018, total cryptocurrencies market capitalization is $100bn and larger than GDP of 127 countries.
Larger than the GDP of 127 countries, and probably larger CO2 generation too!

The interesting thing is their prices tend to go up and down together - as if there is no real difference between them in the eyes of 'investors'.

psionl0 24th November 2019 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samson (Post 12903230)
Here is an eyepopping article to illustrate something quite immoral.

The site chosen for the mining operation spans more than 100 acres. When completed, it will not only be the largest Bitcoin mining facility on the planet, but also the largest single data centre in North America.

https://www.newsbtc.com/2019/11/18/t...ning-facility/

Maybe you just don't realize it but that article is providing an argument against your notion that "the nonsense is disintegrating in beautiful fashion".

psionl0 24th November 2019 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets (Post 12903318)
While technically Bitcoin is an asset bubble, what do you call an 'asset' that was created from nothing to make obscene profit for its inventor, and only increases in 'value' due to new 'investors'?

And there we have it. The psychic programmer working in concert with the NWO to fleece gullible speculators. Another argument that is as old as the hills (or at least as old as the original bitcoin thread).

'Satoshi Nakamoto' looked into a crystal ball which told him that some random bit of computer code would net him millions - if not billions! :rolleyes:

Mycroft 25th November 2019 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by psionl0 (Post 12901983)
Why not?

There is a world of difference between an ill advised investment an a fraudulent scam run by a shonky operator.

I think you attribute to malice what is done in ignorance.

Bitcoin is not, by definition a Ponzi scheme in the same way a spider is not, but definition, an insect. At the same time, there is very little of value to be had by being a pedant and correcting anyone over it.

psionl0 25th November 2019 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mycroft (Post 12904040)
I think you attribute to malice what is done in ignorance.

Bitcoin is not, by definition a Ponzi scheme in the same way a spider is not, but definition, an insect. At the same time, there is very little of value to be had by being a pedant and correcting anyone over it.

You seem to be arguing that bitcoin IS a fraudulent scam run by a shonky operator but the name of that scam is not "Ponzi".

Am I supposed to attribute that piece of ridiculous nonsense to malice or ignorance?

Bitcoin is just a digital commodity. Nobody is "running" it. There may be scams that involve bitcoin (just as there are with currencies) but by definition, an inanimate object (even a digital one) can't scam anybody.

psionl0 25th November 2019 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by psionl0 (Post 12903379)
The psychic programmer working in concert with the NWO to fleece gullible speculators.

For those who came in late, any notion that bitcoin was "created from nothing to make obscene profit for its inventor" is completely at odds with history.

The person known as Satoshi Nakamoto originally put the code and blockchain in the public domain so that it could be evaluated. It was his solution to the "Byzantine Generals" problem (ensuring that on line data isn't corrupted by hostile forces). He may have "mined" a large number of bitcoins for himself but this was long before you needed banks of super computers to do so. He wasn't trying to enrich himself. He was just a computer geek.

In those early days, bitcoin was literally worth nothing. One holder paid 10,000 BTC for a pizza. It was an exercise that showed how bitcoin could be used as a currency to pay for things. Another "early adopter" offered to sell 10,000 BTC online for $50.00 and couldn't get any takers.

It would be years before speculators swooped in and bid up the price of bitcoin and nobody predicted it.

Samson 25th November 2019 10:41 PM

I would buy bitcoin at 7253 now for a lazy $1000, stop at 6500.
I hate posting this but heh, the planet is burning regardless :mad:

psionl0 25th November 2019 11:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samson on 23rd November 2019 (Post 12901965)
I am pretty certain that selling right here at 7205 will reap extravagant rewards. the stop loss is tight at 7388.:cool:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samson (Post 12904605)
I would buy bitcoin at 7253 now for a lazy $1000, stop at 6500.

You missed the mark by 24 hours. The low point was yesterday when the price was $6500. Now you are recommending a buy when the price is peaking again.

Clearly, you are trying to punish bitcoin speculators.

Tolls 26th November 2019 02:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by psionl0 (Post 12904402)
Bitcoin is just a digital commodity. Nobody is "running" it. There may be scams that involve bitcoin (just as there are with currencies) but by definition, an inanimate object (even a digital one) can't scam anybody.

Quite.
Just compare it to something like OneCoin to see the difference.

Samson 26th November 2019 04:08 AM

What I find really difficult to post is that the TA I considered predictive had not had a consumated pattern.
I no longer expect a 1k rally.
Cancell and reverse at 7084. Go short right now.

psionl0 26th November 2019 04:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tolls (Post 12904709)
Quite.
Just compare it to something like OneCoin to see the difference.

You are right. Bitcoin and OneCoin are nothing alike. They are "chalk and cheese". OneCoin didn't even have a blockchain. The only thing they had was an sql server with a database.

The only similarity is that OneCoin itself didn't run a scam. Instead, it was a shonky operator running the scam based on a fake product.
https://www.bbc.com/news/stories-50435014

Mycroft 26th November 2019 08:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by psionl0 (Post 12904402)
You seem to be arguing that bitcoin IS a fraudulent scam run by a shonky operator but the name of that scam is not "Ponzi".

No, you're reading that into my words.

Quote:

Originally Posted by psionl0 (Post 12904402)
Am I supposed to attribute that piece of ridiculous nonsense to malice or ignorance?

Neither.

Quote:

Originally Posted by psionl0 (Post 12904402)
Bitcoin is just a digital commodity. Nobody is "running" it. There may be scams that involve bitcoin (just as there are with currencies) but by definition, an inanimate object (even a digital one) can't scam anybody.

I don't disagree with any of that, but for the average person I don't think it's terribly important to make the distinction between "scam" and "very bad investment for the novice investor that carries very high risk."

To go back to the spider/insect analogy, if someone expresses the opinion that spiders are icky, nothing of value is gained by arguing them down and making sure they understand how valuable spiders are to the ecosystem and making sure they understand spiders are not insects. While that's all true, they will still think spiders are icky.

psionl0 26th November 2019 08:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mycroft (Post 12904947)
I don't think it's terribly important to make the distinction between "scam" and "very bad investment for the novice investor that carries very high risk."

It IS you know. Words like "scam", ""ponzi", "pyramid" etc are emotionally charged words designed to make people negative about bitcoin regardless of the facts. It implies that somebody is running the whole thing. You can't say that any argument is ok as long as it is against bitcoin.

If you are going to post about bitcoin then you must tell the truth. The truth is that bitcoin is a risky investment. It doesn't mean that everybody who buys any is going to lose and it doesn't mean an inevitable fall to zero. That is what the emotional arguments are trying to get people believe regardless of the facts.

Belz... 26th November 2019 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by psionl0 (Post 12904977)
It IS you know. Words like "scam", ""ponzi", "pyramid" etc are emotionally charged words designed to make people negative about bitcoin regardless of the facts.

The fact is that BTC is unreliable and pretty much useless. So what else is there to say? Yeah, it's not a ponzi scheme. It might be a scam, it might not. But that's irrelevant now.

GlennB 26th November 2019 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samson (Post 12904753)
What I find really difficult to post is that the TA I considered predictive had not had a consumated pattern.
I no longer expect a 1k rally.
Cancell and reverse at 7084. Go short right now.

You're making me dizzy.

Mycroft 26th November 2019 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by psionl0 (Post 12904977)
It IS you know. Words like "scam", ""ponzi", "pyramid" etc are emotionally charged words designed to make people negative about bitcoin regardless of the facts.

Which would be of great concern if we were talking about people, not such a big deal when talking about an abstraction.

Quote:

Originally Posted by psionl0 (Post 12904977)
You can't say that any argument is ok as long as it is against bitcoin.

I'm not saying that.

I'm saying it's not a big deal if people who already don't like Bitcoin aren't perfect in how they articulate why they don't like it. Yes, it is neither a Ponzi scheme nor a pyramid scheme, but the damage done by someone incorrectly labeling it as such is about the same as the damage done by someone who incorrectly labels a spider as an insect.

Quote:

Originally Posted by psionl0 (Post 12904977)
If you are going to post about bitcoin then you must tell the truth.

This is clearly very important to you. But why? How are you harmed?

Quote:

Originally Posted by psionl0 (Post 12904977)
The truth is that bitcoin is a risky investment. It doesn't mean that everybody who buys any is going to lose and it doesn't mean an inevitable fall to zero. That is what the emotional arguments are trying to get people believe regardless of the facts.

All of which are important only if you're invested in getting people to buy bitcoin.

psionl0 26th November 2019 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mycroft (Post 12905393)
This is clearly very important to you. But why? How are you harmed?

Because only an idiot would use the wrong argument against something.

If I said that power points were dangerous because they were full of evil spirits instead of high voltage electricity you would be the first person to condemn me as ignorant.

"Any argument will do as long as it is against bitcoin" is the antithesis of critical thinking.

psionl0 26th November 2019 08:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Belz... (Post 12904981)
It might be a scam, it might not. But that's irrelevant now.

On the contrary. It is very relevant - to you.

Why? Because "bitcoin is risky" doesn't sound bad enough for you. OTOH allow people to think that it is a scam then suddenly it becomes a new ball game. So **** the facts!

Mycroft 27th November 2019 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by psionl0 (Post 12905505)
Because only an idiot would use the wrong argument against something.

Maybe. One exception could be that it were of trivial importance and not worth arguing over.

Quote:

Originally Posted by psionl0 (Post 12905505)
If I said that power points were dangerous because they were full of evil spirits instead of high voltage electricity you would be the first person to condemn me as ignorant.

A distinction of tremendous importance to someone tasked with installing, maintaining and repairing this equipment. Not so important if your only concern was that someone, such as a child, not mess with it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by psionl0 (Post 12905505)
"Any argument will do as long as it is against bitcoin" is the antithesis of critical thinking.

Again, not what I'm saying.

psionl0 27th November 2019 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mycroft (Post 12906297)
A distinction of tremendous importance to someone tasked with installing, maintaining and repairing this equipment. Not so important if your only concern was that someone, such as a child, not mess with it.

The same principle applies to crypto currencies. It is of critical importance whether the crypto is being maintained by a person or by a system that renders the records immutable. (See OneCoin above).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mycroft (Post 12906297)
Again, not what I'm saying.

That's exactly what you are saying.

You say "trivial importance" because you want everybody to believe that bitcoin is as bad as a ponzi scheme. If they believe that it is a ponzi scheme then that is even better for you.

lomiller 27th November 2019 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by psionl0 (Post 12905597)
On

Why? Because "bitcoin is risky" doesn't sound bad enough for you.

Risk is usually associated with high levels of variability, which isnít the problem people have with bitcoin.


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