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-   -   Are we allowed to call Trump's regime fascism now? (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=345789)

ChristianProgressive 30th July 2020 07:12 AM

Are we allowed to call Trump's regime fascism now?
 
With Trump deploying his brownshirt army across the nation

https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and...federal-police

that is illegally grabbing people off the street at random who have committed no crime

https://www.nydailynews.com/news/pol...zee-story.html

and forcing them to sign agreements not to protest in order to be released

https://www.propublica.org/article/d...utional-rights

ICE conducting "civilian academies" to train non-police in arrest and firearms.


https://www.npr.org/local/309/2020/0...alderman-warns


And now, Usurper Trump trying to prevent people from removing him democratically

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/0...lection-387902

Are we finally all agreed that the US is under fascist occupation, or are those of us who keep insisting that we have a functioning democratic system still going to die on that hill?

theprestige 30th July 2020 07:25 AM

You're allowed to call it anything you want.

Ironically, this means it's probably not fascism.

Wolrab 30th July 2020 07:48 AM

Deploying troops to fight fascists is fascism? What a strange concept.

ChristianProgressive 30th July 2020 07:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 13173773)
You're allowed to call it anything you want.

Ironically, this means it's probably not fascism.

He's following Hitler's playbook almost precisely. If his regime goosesteps like a fascist, uses the slogans and tactics of a fascist and espouses the beliefs of a fascist...do the math...

TahiniBinShawarma 30th July 2020 07:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive (Post 13173763)
With Trump deploying his brownshirt army across the nation

https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and...federal-police

that is illegally grabbing people off the street at random who have committed no crime

https://www.nydailynews.com/news/pol...zee-story.html

and forcing them to sign agreements not to protest in order to be released

https://www.propublica.org/article/d...utional-rights

ICE conducting "civilian academies" to train non-police in arrest and firearms.


https://www.npr.org/local/309/2020/0...alderman-warns


And now, Usurper Trump trying to prevent people from removing him democratically

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/0...lection-387902

Are we finally all agreed that the US is under fascist occupation, or are those of us who keep insisting that we have a functioning democratic system still going to die on that hill?

I'm wondering if the hysterical crowd who have such thinking realize how ridiculous they sound to normal people?

BobTheCoward 30th July 2020 08:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive (Post 13173799)
He's following Hitler's playbook almost precisely. If his regime goosesteps like a fascist, uses the slogans and tactics of a fascist and espouses the beliefs of a fascist...do the math...

I think it shows a parochial worldview constrained by a lack of knowledge on the range of authoritarian regimes.

Really? In all of human history and all regimes, this is the one it is most comparable to?

Wolrab 30th July 2020 08:02 AM

<snip>
Rioters and looters using brownshirt tactics are brownshirts. <snip>


Edited by Loss Leader:  Quote removed and post edited to conform.

BobTheCoward 30th July 2020 08:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wolrab (Post 13173813)
Hmmm... Rioters and looters using brownshirt tactics are brownshirts. <snip>

The activities that are specific to Brown shirts that doesn't also apply to something like the activities of a college team's fans after a championship win is nothing like the activities of the protestors.


Edited by Loss Leader:  Quote edited to conform.

varwoche 30th July 2020 08:10 AM

Nascent fascism.

Trumpism bears little resemblance to traditional GOP. It's more like facism.

Mojo 30th July 2020 08:14 AM

Never attribute to fascism that which is adequately explained by incompetence.

BobTheCoward 30th July 2020 08:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by varwoche (Post 13173827)
Nascent fascism.

Trumpism bears little resemblance to traditional GOP. It's more like facism.

What separates nascent fascism from authoritarianism?

varwoche 30th July 2020 08:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mojo (Post 13173829)
Never attribute to fascism that which is adequately explained by incompetence.

Not an either/or proposition.

theprestige 30th July 2020 08:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive (Post 13173799)
He's following Hitler's playbook almost precisely. If his regime goosesteps like a fascist, uses the slogans and tactics of a fascist and espouses the beliefs of a fascist...do the math...

Sure, where "almost precisely" means "not even a little bit".

varwoche 30th July 2020 08:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward (Post 13173831)
What separates nascent fascism from authoritarianism?

Semantics to a large extent. The definition is fuzzy.

Attributes of facism with applicability to current situation:

Hyper nationalistic check
Far right check
Authoritarian check
One party state check
Positive view of violence check
Opposed to free press check
Charismatic, authoritarian leader with devout following check
Racist check

Mojo 30th July 2020 08:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by varwoche (Post 13173832)
Not an either/or proposition.


Yes, they arenít mutually exclusive, but Iím pretty certain that common or garden incompetence is a lot more prevalent than fascist incompetence.

BobTheCoward 30th July 2020 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by varwoche (Post 13173855)
Semantics to a large extent. The definition is fuzzy.

Attributes of facism with applicability to current situation:

Hyper nationalistic check
Far right check
Authoritarian check
One party state check
Positive view of violence check
Opposed to free press check
Charismatic, authoritarian leader with devout following check
Racist check

Just starting with your first one,

How do you know the difference between nationalistic normal to right wing authoritarianism and hyper nationalistic?

carlitos 30th July 2020 08:45 AM

Yes, we are all finally in agreement. We are allowed to call the Trump regime fascist now.













(that was sarcasm)

dann 30th July 2020 08:55 AM

No, we are not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by xjx388 (Post 13171814)
Tyranny! Fascism! Nazis! Dangerously mentally ill!

Benghazi! Her emails! Clinton Cash! Vince Foster!

I’m not seeing a whole lot of difference in the quality of “argument” there.

I always thought Liberals/Progressives/Democrats/whatever were on the side of science and reason. But it’s clear to me that many really aren’t.


dann 30th July 2020 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive (Post 13173763)
And now, Usurper Trump trying to prevent people from removing him democratically


Told you so!

sir drinks-a-lot 30th July 2020 09:05 AM

You want to start referring to Trump as Hitler now??

What took you so long?

carlitos 30th July 2020 09:11 AM

Meanwhile, Bushitler is speaking at John Lewis' funeral today.

lomiller 30th July 2020 09:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wolrab (Post 13173813)
Rioters and looters using brownshirt tactics are brownshirts.

protesting isnít a fascist technique. Blaming the protesters and using that as an excuse to attack them is the fascist go-to.

To be fair, though, thatís a go to of dictatorships in general not one exclusive to fascism. Eg China is trying the very same thing to pro-democracy protestors in Hong Kong. Then again, with the Chinese governments current approach to business probably makes them more fascist than communist, so maybe that isnít a great example.

dann 30th July 2020 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carlitos (Post 13173894)
Meanwhile, Bushitler is speaking at John Lewis' funeral today.

He must have confused him with Herman Cain.

lomiller 30th July 2020 09:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward (Post 13173831)
What separates nascent fascism from authoritarianism?

Some basic tents of fascism.

Profit motive for private companies is good, so long as it remains subservient to "National Interest". The "national interest" was invariably defined as whatever the leader wanted. IOW private companies are great so long as they made the polices of the Party leader their highest priority. Business that backed the leader were rewarded, those that failed to do so were punished.

Basically the Trump Whitehouse's approach to economics in a nutshell.




Fascism was "against trade" but more accurately was against imports. They wanted self sufficiency and to have everything the country used/needed to be produced locally

again, close fit with Trump


Fascism viewed itself as the productive workers and capitalists and viewed the bourgeois elite as the enemy. While not exactly the same meanings it still mirrors Republican notions of "wealth creators" vs "the liberal elite"


While fascism was overtly against individuality, and trump conservatives are ostensibly "individualists" it's been widely pointed out that Republicans really only support the freedom to be exactly like them. Different attitudes, values, religion (or lack thereof) etc are not tolerated or accepted. Again this states to resemble another key fascist tenant even though it claims to be the polar opposite.

BobTheCoward 30th July 2020 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lomiller (Post 13173944)
Some basic tents of fascism.

Profit motive for private companies is good, so long as it remains subservient to "National Interest". The "national interest" was invariably defined as whatever the leader wanted. IOW private companies are great so long as they made the polices of the Party leader their highest priority. Business that backed the leader were rewarded, those that failed to do so were punished.

Basically the Trump Whitehouse's approach to economics in a nutshell.




Fascism was "against trade" but more accurately was against imports. They wanted self sufficiency and to have everything the country used/needed to be produced locally

again, close fit with Trump


Fascism viewed itself as the productive workers and capitalists and viewed the bourgeois elite as the enemy. While not exactly the same meanings it still mirrors Republican notions of "wealth creators" vs "the liberal elite"


While fascism was overtly against individuality, and trump conservatives are ostensibly "individualists" it's been widely pointed out that Republicans really only support the freedom to be exactly like them. Different attitudes, values, religion (or lack thereof) etc are not tolerated or accepted. Again this states to resemble another key fascist tenant even though it claims to be the polar opposite.

Then what separates this from China which seems to do these things more extensively than the US but are not fascist?

varwoche 30th July 2020 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carlitos (Post 13173894)
Meanwhile, Bushitler is speaking at John Lewis' funeral today.

The implications being (1) lots of people called Bush Hitler, (2) lots of people are calling Trump Hitler, and (3) these are equally false concepts.

1. Nobody here called Bush Hitler. And the insignificant people who did were absurdly hyperbolic.

2. Nobody here called Trump Hitler. Likening Trumpism to Fascism isn't the same thing.

3. The long, distinguished list of Republicans and Generals who have called out Trump's anti-democratic actions/words renders this absurd.

SuburbanTurkey 30th July 2020 10:07 AM

Americans who are honestly concerned about Trump being a budding fascist should be gunning up. Shooting is a skill that takes time and practice to gain competency, so planning ahead is important.

The Socialist Rifle Association is a good resource in the US that isn't full of MAGA CHUDs like the NRA. You might even run into a friendly suburban turkey if you join the Southern New England (CT, RI, and MA) chapter. You probably shouldn't join if you aren't comfortable associating with leftists. Bigots and cops (but I repeat myself) are not welcome and are ineligible for membership.

Unfortunately, ammo and gun prices are running wild right now after months of panic buying.

Wolrab 30th July 2020 10:46 AM

Quote:

protesting isnít a fascist technique. Blaming the protesters and using that as an excuse to attack them is the fascist go-to.
Did I mention protesters? No, I did not.

uke2se 30th July 2020 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wolrab (Post 13174032)
Did I mention protesters? No, I did not.

Well, you kind of did, but you labeled them 'rioters' and 'looters', which is also out of the fascist play-book.

Take - for example - the tear-gassing of the moms in Portland. Which ones of the moms were rioting or looting?

Or - as another example - the clearing of Lafayette park prior to Trump's photo op. Who were the rioters?

Wolrab 30th July 2020 10:55 AM

Are you saying there are no rioters and looters?

uke2se 30th July 2020 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wolrab (Post 13174056)
Are you saying there are no rioters and looters?

I'm saying that the troops Trump has deployed are deployed against protesters. Did you find any looters or rioters in Lafayette park yet?

BStrong 30th July 2020 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wolrab (Post 13173794)
Deploying troops LEO's to fight fascists is fascism? What a strange concept.

FIFY

uke2se 30th July 2020 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BStrong (Post 13174074)
FIFY

I think it's fair to call them troops. They look like soldiers and are armed like soldiers. They are basically Trump's soldiers.

ponderingturtle 30th July 2020 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BStrong (Post 13174074)
FIFY

So like troops only less disciplined and more violent.

Trebuchet 30th July 2020 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by uke2se (Post 13174080)
I think it's fair to call them troops. They look like soldiers and are armed like soldiers. They are basically Trump's soldiers.

No, they're still police. Secret State Police, if you will.

Wolrab 30th July 2020 11:13 AM

https://www.nbcwashington.com/news/l...on-dc/2318177/ Nothing to see here, Move along.

uke2se 30th July 2020 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trebuchet (Post 13174089)
No, they're still police. Secret State Police, if you will.

Fair enough. It's a minor point after all.

ponderingturtle 30th July 2020 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trebuchet (Post 13174089)
No, they're still police. Secret State Police, if you will.

Exactly the military is barred from using such tactics.

uke2se 30th July 2020 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wolrab (Post 13174092)

Was that about the tear-gassing of the protesters in Lafayette park?

ETA: No, it appears to be about the day before Trump's secret police gassed peaceful protesters in Lafayette park. Kind of a strange thing to bring up in this discussion.

lomiller 30th July 2020 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wolrab (Post 13174032)
Did I mention protesters? No, I did not.

You used the same code words fascist and other dictators always use for protestors.


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