International Skeptics Forum

International Skeptics Forum (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/forumindex.php)
-   Social Issues & Current Events (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=82)
-   -   (Ed) Thai Boys Found in Cave After NINE Days. (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=330500)

Vixen 2nd July 2018 12:34 PM

Thai Boys Found in Cave After NINE Days.
 
Two British divers have found the team of twelve boys, aged 11 - 16, and their coach, aged 25, together with the help of Thai navy SEALS.

Quote:

This is the moment 12 boys and their football team coach were found alive after becoming trapped in a flooded cave for more than a week in Thailand.

Video shows the starved and frightened youngsters crammed onto a wedge of rocks waiting to be rescued after nine days of desperate searching.

The boys, mostly seated and with baggy football shirts pulled over their knees, were discovered by two British rescue divers.
They have been trapped since 23 June, having become trapped due to rising water.

The trauma for these children will be enormous. They will hardly be able to bear daylight, be able to walk or eat.

Should the coach be charged with negligence, or is this an accident that could happen to anyone?

theprestige 2nd July 2018 12:37 PM

They haven't been rescued, only found. Rescuing them is the next major challenge.

JoeMorgue 2nd July 2018 01:02 PM

This is still good (and I'll admit for me at least not expected. I'm slightly ashamed to admit I didn't see a huge chance of finding them alive and am very happy to be wrong) news. Hope the rescue can go smoothly.

CompusMentus 2nd July 2018 01:27 PM

I too thought they wouldn't be found in time. Looking forward now to reading the full story of the rescue.....

Compus

Norman Alexander 2nd July 2018 01:30 PM

Rescue can take time now, because it is clear they can be fed and kept warm and relatively safe.

The trick to getting them out will be to find the safest method, not necessarily the fastest. They were trapped due to rising water due to rain. It may be easiest to just wait for the water to subside and simply walk out. Then again, more rain is expected shortly. We shall see.

alfaniner 2nd July 2018 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vixen (Post 12347594)
The trauma for these children will be enormous. They will hardly be able to bear daylight, be able to walk or eat.

I think it will be for a short time (a few days) at most. Once they are replenished, rehydrated, rested, (all of which can be done on-site), and rescued, I believe we'll see videos of them playing soccer within the month.

Vixen 2nd July 2018 02:15 PM

I can't believe that guy shone a bright torch right into the boys' faces. Ouch.

Vixen 2nd July 2018 02:22 PM

Update: 'Rescuers may have to bring out the boys one by one' in case of mishap halfway along.

Quote:

It could take hours to remove each individual child, according to Butch Hendrick, an American rescue diver, who has spoken to CNN this evening.

They’d have to make sure that each one was successfully out before they started with the next one because if they suddenly had a problem they don’t want to be halfway through the exit and realize they have to go back.

It could be multiple hours per person for sure based on the distance interior they are in the cave.

Hendrick set out the three steps that the rescue team are likely to follow when and if they decide to remove the boys.

Medical personnel will check the boys and their assistant coach so they can decide who will go first
They will likely be given oxygen if they can’t swim
Two to three people will assist the boys and their coach to get through the narrow passages
https://www.theguardian.com/world/li...ball-team-live

Bob001 2nd July 2018 02:30 PM

From the story:
Quote:

He said: 'We will bring food to them and a doctor who can dive. I am not sure they can eat as they have not eaten for a while.'

So what happens if a person hasn't eaten for several days? Does his digestive system shut down? Do you start him out with some kind of broth or soup? Juice? Ensure? How do you treat short-term starvation?

Skeptic Ginger 2nd July 2018 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob001 (Post 12347772)
From the story:



So what happens if a person hasn't eaten for several days? Does his digestive system shut down? Do you start him out with some kind of broth or soup? Juice? Ensure? How do you treat short-term starvation?

Starving people throw up if they eat too much. I do not know why but I'm guessing the lining of the intestine is affected.

They were given some kind of energy gel according to the article.

Rolfe 2nd July 2018 02:39 PM

Given what was known about the cave system I always had high hopes that they would be rescued. They're not out yet but this is all very encouraging.

Remember the miners who were trapped and they actually drilled a new shaft to where they were, just big enough to take a single-person escape pod?

Bob001 2nd July 2018 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rolfe (Post 12347784)
Given what was known about the cave system I always had high hopes that they would be rescued. They're not out yet but this is all very encouraging.

Remember the miners who were trapped and they actually drilled a new shaft to where they were, just big enough to take a single-person escape pod?

That actually became a pretty good feature film.
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2006295/

William Parcher 2nd July 2018 02:51 PM

Will they all have to be taught scuba diving to get out of there? If so, it's risky with novice divers in a cave and tunnel situation because panicking can be fatal.

Bob001 2nd July 2018 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by William Parcher (Post 12347815)
Will they all have to be taught scuba diving to get out of there? If so, it's risky with novice divers in a cave and tunnel situation because panicking can be fatal.

How far do they have to go to get out? I haven't seen anything about that. That could make a big difference.

William Parcher 2nd July 2018 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob001 (Post 12347877)
How far do they have to go to get out? I haven't seen anything about that. That could make a big difference.

They are more than two miles from the entrance. Not all of it is flooded and they continue to pump out water. But still it might require a mile of scuba with no accessible air pockets and no visibility (the water is not clear).

I'm going to speculate that they do not go with a scuba rescue and instead wait until the water is gone and they can walk and crawl out. The wait might be longer than the number of days they have already been trapped.

ETA: Water with zero visibility is almost a guarantee of uncontrolled panic for a brand new scuba diver. Even an experienced diver will have psychological problems.

William Parcher 2nd July 2018 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alfaniner (Post 12347745)
Once they are replenished, rehydrated, rested...

I would think that they aren't dehydrated since there is plenty of water in the cave and also there might be seeps coming through the walls with nice clean water.

A kid said to bring food because they are hungry. That's a good sign I think - my understanding is that advanced starvation includes the loss of the hunger urge.

Venom 2nd July 2018 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vixen (Post 12347594)
The trauma for these children will be enormous. They will hardly be able to bear daylight, be able to walk or eat.

Maybe if they were 8 years old or so.

But kids in that part of the world can be exposed to a multitude of horrible acts. The drug wars over there are still in the memory of many, as well as human trafficking. Don't know if they get any thicker skin because of these events, good or bad, but I'm sure they'll be back to playing games in a short time.

Skeptic Ginger 2nd July 2018 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by William Parcher (Post 12347815)
Will they all have to be taught scuba diving to get out of there? If so, it's risky with novice divers in a cave and tunnel situation because panicking can be fatal.

Apparently the kids can't swim.

Skeptic Ginger 2nd July 2018 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by William Parcher (Post 12347942)
They are more than two miles from the entrance. Not all of it is flooded and they continue to pump out water. But still it might require a mile of scuba with no accessible air pockets and no visibility (the water is not clear).

I'm going to speculate that they do not go with a scuba rescue and instead wait until the water is gone and they can walk and crawl out. The wait might be longer than the number of days they have already been trapped.

ETA: Water with zero visibility is almost a guarantee of uncontrolled panic for a brand new scuba diver. Even an experienced diver will have psychological problems.

The Guardian (they keep updating) said they are 2.3km inside. I thought it was further so maybe it is 2 miles.

William Parcher 2nd July 2018 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger (Post 12347989)
Apparently the kids can't swim.

Yeah I just read that a rescuer said that. They won't take them out underwater. It's too dangerous.

William Parcher 2nd July 2018 04:28 PM

Drilling a vertical access tunnel could be challenging too because this cave system is inside a rugged mountain.

Myriad 2nd July 2018 04:42 PM

Any possibility of pumping down the water? Perhaps, one segment at a time?

theprestige 2nd July 2018 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Myriad (Post 12348038)
Any possibility of pumping down the water? Perhaps, one segment at a time?

Yes. They've been pumping aggressively for a while now.

alfaniner 2nd July 2018 05:03 PM

I didn't see the coach that is supposed to be with them. I'm afraid this great story could still take a dark turn.

Rolfe 2nd July 2018 05:25 PM

All thirteen of them are there. The coach is in his early twenties and probably looked like one of the boys to you.

Foolmewunz 2nd July 2018 05:36 PM

Word over here is that they will stabilize them and get them healthy before any attempt at scuba-ing them out. They won't be doing normal scuba, either but go to a rig with a full head/face mask so they feel less threatened.

Even for a practiced diver this isn't an easy swim. They will feed them and have "diving doctors", e.g. doctors who dive not doctors who treat diving conditions, on the way in this morning. If they can feed them and get their spirits up, they'll probably let 'em stay on the little beachhead for a while.

Oh, and @venom? Jeez! You think we swing from trees over here? They're normal school kids, not guerrilla fighters against the Khmer!

Craig4 2nd July 2018 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by William Parcher (Post 12347815)
Will they all have to be taught scuba diving to get out of there? If so, it's risky with novice divers in a cave and tunnel situation because panicking can be fatal.

I've never done cave diving or much no overhead diving but they shouldn't need to give each boy SCUBA gear. You could just give them a mask and some harness device to clip into a diver and have them breath off a spare second stage. We had to practice this for both Open Water I and Open Water II classes. Ideally, you'd practice a bit so the boys get used to breathing underwater and clearing and replacing their masks.

William Parcher 2nd July 2018 06:06 PM

A rescuer said that if they take them out by diving they would do one-at-a-time and it will take about two hours for each one-way rescue.

A report says that when it rains hard the cave fills faster than they can pump it out.

Skeptic Ginger 2nd July 2018 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Foolmewunz (Post 12348089)
...

Oh, and @venom? Jeez! You think we swing from trees over here? They're normal school kids, not guerrilla fighters against the Khmer!

:p

Thank you, I was thinking about a response. I could never have done it better than that.

William Parcher 2nd July 2018 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Craig4 (Post 12348110)
I've never done cave diving or much no overhead diving but they shouldn't need to give each boy SCUBA gear. You could just give them a mask and some harness device to clip into a diver and have them breath off a spare second stage. We had to practice this for both Open Water I and Open Water II classes. Ideally, you'd practice a bit so the boys get used to breathing underwater and clearing and replacing their masks.

It's really a terrible situation because they aren't even swimmers so they don't have experience even being submerged. The water is muddy so they can't see anything. The claustrophobia and disorientation could overwhelm them and prevent any calmness when that is always necessary.

The full head helmets are a better idea. I don't know if they have to equalize sinuses/ears for the dive. A graphic shows the maximum depth of the water at around 18 feet in one area.

The usual mask and regulator is really scary because a panicked kid could spit out the mouthpiece and try to zoom for the surface which isn't there. Plus you can't see anything. The rescuer can be endangered too by a thrashing kid who is going crazy.

I don't know how you teach scuba in water that is so muddy you can't see the instructor and vice versa. On top of that they are uncomfortable and uncoordinated because they aren't even swimmers yet.

cullennz 2nd July 2018 06:22 PM

I heard an interview years ago about cave dive

She is supposed to be seriously seriously frightening if you haven't done it before, let alone not done any other diving.

And these kids can't swim.

They might want to pump the kids full of valium first

Myriad 2nd July 2018 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by William Parcher (Post 12348127)
A report says that when it rains hard the cave fills faster than they can pump it out.


I'd expect that to be the case. What I wasn't sure of is whether the flooded part of the connecting passage is continuous, or can be treated as separate flooded sections with higher zones in between.

In the latter case, I was imagining pumping down just the farthest flooded section adjacent to where the civilians are, moving them all to the next beachhead, and so forth. Probably not feasible unless the cave topology happened to be just right.

(I'm also imagining a technomaniacal solution involving a length of circumfrentially rigid but longitudinally flexible tube about a meter in diameter, which can be run through the flooded stretches with each end above the water and then pumped out. Workable in principle but getting the kinks out of something like that would take way too long.)

Letting the experts who are 8,000 miles closer to the problem handle it would seem to make a lot of sense. But try telling my brain that...

William Parcher 2nd July 2018 07:02 PM

New York Times says that they are located about three miles from the cave entrance.

Another thing I hadn't imagined was mentioned in NYT. The boys might suffer decompression sickness (the bends) after they are rescued. It's theorized that they could be breathing compressed air right now in the dry chamber because of rising water causing pressurization. If this is the case they might require a portable decompression chamber just outside of the cave entrance or to be quickly transported to a decompression chamber. It's all only a theory right now.

Skeptic Ginger 2nd July 2018 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by William Parcher (Post 12348192)
New York Times says that they are located about three miles from the cave entrance.

Another thing I hadn't imagined was mentioned in NYT. The boys might suffer decompression sickness (the bends) after they are rescued. It's theorized that they could be breathing compressed air right now in the dry chamber because of rising water causing pressurization. If this is the case they might require a portable decompression chamber just outside of the cave entrance or to be quickly transported to a decompression chamber. It's all only a theory right now.

That's a stretch. They aren't deep underground breathing under pressure.

Myriad 2nd July 2018 07:30 PM

A detailed timeline (with ongoing live updates) is here.

The team was found 400 km 400m past a chamber called "Pattaya Beach" which is about 5 km from the entrance, so 3 to 3.25 miles is about right. It appears that there are several flooded sections of approximately 10m long each between the entrance and the "3rd chamber" about 3 km in which is a major interior rescue staging area. One of those flooded sections is very narrow, requiring divers to dismount their SCUBA tank to pass through. Some (rough hand-drawn) maps appear to show a longer flooded section between the 3rd chamber and Pattaya Beach. It appears to have taken rescuers about a day and a half, after reaching the 3rd chamber on Sunday, to work their way past that section and find the group.

An update from Friday that two rescue workers had been electrocuted by flooded equipment turned out, fortunately, to have been exaggerated. (In common usage "electrocuted" often just means non-fatally shocked; add translation issues across languages and it's easy to see how such a report could be mistaken.) If in the end there are NO fatalities among so many people involved in such dangerous operations in sketchy conditions I will be extremely impressed. The world press hasn't really noticed yet but there's been some extraordinarily good coordination and communication going on.

How many instructor-level cave divers are there in the world? It appears most of them are on the scene there.

William Parcher 2nd July 2018 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger (Post 12348203)
That's a stretch. They aren't deep underground breathing under pressure.

I don't think you understand. The concern is not how far below ground they are located. They aren't very far under and the cave system is well above sea level anyway.

The concern is that sections of the cave could contain pressurized air because the rising water compresses the contained air if it cannot escape. They will evaluate the situation to decide if they will need to decompress the boys using a decompression chamber.

Foolmewunz 2nd July 2018 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Myriad (Post 12348230)
A detailed timeline (with ongoing live updates) is here.

The team was found 400 km past a chamber called "Pattaya Beach" which is about 5 km from the entrance, so 3 to 3.25 miles is about right. It appears that there are several flooded sections of approximately 10m long each between the entrance and the "3rd chamber" about 3 km in which is a major interior rescue staging area. One of those flooded sections is very narrow, requiring divers to dismount their SCUBA tank to pass through. Some (rough hand-drawn) maps appear to show a longer flooded section between the 3rd chamber and Pattaya Beach. It appears to have taken rescuers about a day and a half, after reaching the 3rd chamber on Sunday, to work their way past that section and find the group.

An update from Friday that two rescue workers had been electrocuted by flooded equipment turned out, fortunately, to have been exaggerated. (In common usage "electrocuted" often just means non-fatally shocked; add translation issues across languages and it's easy to see how such a report could be mistaken.) If in the end there are NO fatalities among so many people involved in such dangerous operations in sketchy conditions I will be extremely impressed. The world press hasn't really noticed yet but there's been some extraordinarily good coordination and communication going on.

How many instructor-level cave divers are there in the world? It appears most of them are on the scene there.

400 meters. 400 km away is somewhere in Viet Nam, I think.

cullennz 2nd July 2018 07:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by William Parcher (Post 12348240)
I don't think you understand. The concern is not how far below ground they are located. They aren't very far under and the cave system is well above sea level anyway.

The concern is that sections of the cave could contain pressurized air because the rising water compresses the contained air if it cannot escape. They will evaluate the situation to decide if they will need to decompress the boys using a decompression chamber.


Struggling to see that causing the bends tbf.

The bit where they are is pretty roomy comparatively from the photos

Myriad 2nd July 2018 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Foolmewunz (Post 12348246)
400 meters. 400 km away is somewhere in Viet Nam, I think.


Yeah, 400 m. Don't know how that k snuck in there.

Foolmewunz 2nd July 2018 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by William Parcher (Post 12348240)
I don't think you understand. The concern is not how far below ground they are located. They aren't very far under and the cave system is well above sea level anyway.

The concern is that sections of the cave could contain pressurized air because the rising water compresses the contained air if it cannot escape. They will evaluate the situation to decide if they will need to decompress the boys using a decompression chamber.

Sorry but this seems like a consultant with a white board discussion. Divers have been going in and out, including into those mysterious over-pressurized sections for over a week. There are NO decompression units at the cave entrances presently. How are those divers surviving?


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 07:10 PM.

Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
2015-19, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.