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-   -   School throws child out for complaining too much about bullies (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=339315)

Checkmite 2nd October 2019 01:32 AM

School throws child out for complaining too much about bullies
 
By "throws child out", I don't mean "expelled"; I meant they literally forced him out of the building - without a jacket, in 40-degree weather - and then, get this, reported him truant.

Quote:

Yvonne Pinkston said her son was in 4th grade at Fiske Elementary last year, after moving to Chicago from Indiana, and was bullied from the start, first by students and then by staff after he complained.

Her attorney, Dan Herbert, released surveillance video from the school, which shows a security officer dragging the boy into the principal’s office, and then forcing him out of the building as the school counselor and principal appear to supervise.

Herbert said it all happened after the boy complained about being bullied.

“They throw this kid out on the street in Englewood, and they leave him there, and to make matters worse, they called the police and they reported that there’s a missing child. They report that some kid ran out of the school,” Herbert said.

The video showed the boy wearing only a polo shirt and khakis, while the security guard, a school counselor, and another adult who were there when the boy allegedly was kicked out were wearing sweaters and jackets inside. The boy’s family said it was only 40 degrees outside at the time.

The boy’s grandmother, Hope Pinkston, who said she works as a security officer for CPS, said the school’s counselor and principal called her the day of the incident, and claimed her grandson had run out of the school.

She claimed, when she asked if any adult was with her grandson after he left the building, the principal told her she directed her staff “not to chase after him,” even though he was only 9 years old, and alone on the streets of Englewood.

Herbert said school officials also lied to the boy’s parents, claiming he had been fighting, scratching, and kicking other kids.

“It didn’t happen,” he said.

Pinkston has filed a federal lawsuit against the Chicago Board of Education, the principal, the school counselor, and the security guard, accusing them of excessive force, unreasonable seizure, intentional infliction of emotional distress, creating a hostile educational environment, and more.

Sources said the district was first made aware of the allegations on Tuesday, and the security guard has since been removed from his position, and CPS is investigating the principal’s actions, as well as why district leadership was not previously notified of the incident.
Before too many people jump on the "we only have one side of the story" bandwagon, I would assert that the other side of the story doesn't actually matter in this case. Forcing a child out of the building without a coat in low-temperature is nothing less than reckless endangerment; and certainly isn't anything close to an appropriate, valid, or acceptable punishment for anything the child may have done.

Further, the school are the proven liars in this case; they told both the police and the boy's grandmother that the boy had "run out of the building". There happens to be surveillance video of his removal from the building; it plainly shows him being escorted to the doors and obviously being compelled to leave the building by adults who then stand there The-Tribe-Has-Spoken style, making it clear that staying inside is not an option, and he (reluctantly, it honestly looks like to me) follows their instructions. He did not "run out of the building" in defiance of the rules, nor was he being dragged out in the midst of an out-of-control tantrum. This makes everything the school has said and will say about this case suspect, including that he was removed for "fighting, scratching, and kicking other kids", which I simply cannot believe is accurate as a result of their already-established lies.

cullennz 2nd October 2019 01:45 AM

If it as the boy says, it is bad.

But unless there is missing video, I see no dragging through hall ways or forcing out of the school.

Would help if there was sound.

Checkmite 2nd October 2019 02:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cullennz (Post 12841027)
If it as the boy says, it is bad.

But unless there is missing video, I see no dragging through hall ways or forcing out of the school.

The video very clearly shows the boy being compelled to leave the building by adults. Are you sure you're watching the actual video in question?

What do you believe IS happening in the video?

Checkmite 2nd October 2019 02:33 AM

Here is the video, for those who don't want to run the ad-gauntlet:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

cullennz 2nd October 2019 02:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Checkmite (Post 12841053)
The video very clearly shows the boy being compelled to leave the building by adults. Are you sure you're watching the actual video in question?

What do you believe IS happening in the video?

The video shows a dude standing with his hands at his sides, presumably talking to the kid and then the kid walking out the door.

Whether he is demanding he leaves or asking where he is going is unknown.

The kids version might be true, and they should be turfed, but I just find it hard to understand how you would get 3 adults in one school who all happen to get off on abuse of a 9 year old kid simultaneously, while knowing it is filmed.

cullennz 2nd October 2019 02:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Checkmite (Post 12841056)
Here is the video, for those who don't want to run the ad-gauntlet:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

Cheers

More clear

Darat 2nd October 2019 02:48 AM

Yeah there can no question he was forced out.

I found the reaction of one of the passersby we see in that video quite interesting as well. They obviously start to rubber neck but as soon as they see the security guard (I'll leave that alone) they quickly turnaround and run back into the corridor. Now at school "in my days" you'd have needed teachers to compel rubberneckers away, are the kids scared of the security guards at that school? Wouldn't be surprised from that video if there was such an atmosphere at the school given the inappropriate way its staff have been shown to behave.

Hopefully this will lead to disciplinary action against the staff involved.

erlando 2nd October 2019 03:02 AM

At least he wasn't arrested and zip-tied... :rolleyes:

cullennz 2nd October 2019 03:08 AM

Probably would have been better off being arrested tbf.

At least it would have probably forced a proper investigation and the little dude would be warmer.

alfaniner 2nd October 2019 05:58 AM

I've been in a similar situation to what appears in the video. I had to restrain the kid to prevent him from hurting myself or others, or causing damage to the school (I'd already experienced him doing both), try to move him to a more secure area, then when I let him go he went tearing out the door.

I can't say that's what's happening there, but I do look at it with a perspective of experience.

ahhell 2nd October 2019 06:27 AM

The staff's actions seem in appropriate but I have a hard time believing the full story is as the kid says.

He complained about bullying so the threw him out in the cold? That really doesn't make much sense.

luchog 2nd October 2019 09:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ahhell (Post 12841274)
The staff's actions seem in appropriate but I have a hard time believing the full story is as the kid says.

He complained about bullying so the threw him out in the cold? That really doesn't make much sense.


As someone who was bullied in school, I can fully believe that would be the case. Administrators are typically far more interested in protecting bullies than in stopping them. Many of them are often bullies themselves, especially school security guards, who are very often petty martinets with a trumped-up view of their own importance and authority (what in the Army we called two-stripe generals). There were incidents where I was actually punished for attempting to stand up to bullies, while the bullies suffered no consequences at all.

And I was far from alone in that respect.

There is nothing at all about the story that is not fully believable within the context of my own experiences.

theprestige 2nd October 2019 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cullennz (Post 12841067)
The video shows a dude standing with his hands at his sides, presumably talking to the kid and then the kid walking out the door.

Whether he is demanding he leaves or asking where he is going is unknown.

The kids version might be true, and they should be turfed, but I just find it hard to understand how you would get 3 adults in one school who all happen to get off on abuse of a 9 year old kid simultaneously, while knowing it is filmed.

The video shows a dude pushing a kid towards the door.

plague311 2nd October 2019 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alfaniner (Post 12841234)
I've been in a similar situation to what appears in the video. I had to restrain the kid to prevent him from hurting myself or others, or causing damage to the school (I'd already experienced him doing both), try to move him to a more secure area, then when I let him go he went tearing out the door.

I can't say that's what's happening there, but I do look at it with a perspective of experience.

Your "more secured areas" are close to the exits? That would make them...less secure as you're looking for the security of the child, not the school. If he wrecks something in the school, they have cameras as is shown, it's not your problem. Let the school recoup the money. As someone that did IT for a school for at-risk children the training is extremely simple.

Isolate the child, preferably in a controlled environment
Give them time to cool down, commonly that will resolve most issues
Speak to them calmly and reasonably in hopes to deescalate the situation

The teachers had that posted and available to be seen in every classroom. Nothing about this was handled reasonably or according to any type of training.

rockysmith76 2nd October 2019 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by luchog (Post 12841605)
As someone who was bullied in school, I can fully believe that would be the case. Administrators are typically far more interested in protecting bullies than in stopping them. Many of them are often bullies themselves, especially school security guards, who are very often petty martinets with a trumped-up view of their own importance and authority (what in the Army we called two-stripe generals). There were incidents where I was actually punished for attempting to stand up to bullies, while the bullies suffered no consequences at all.

And I was far from alone in that respect.

There is nothing at all about the story that is not fully believable within the context of my own experiences.


Correct: They're more interested in appearances and the status quo; to them the victim making noise about is the trouble maker, messed up as that is.

theprestige 2nd October 2019 11:18 AM

One thing I find interesting is that even though the kid is black and the school staff in the video all appear to be white, this hasn't been reported as a racial incident. Seems like white school officials forcing a black student out into the cold, and then reporting him truant, would be a solid candidate for a bit of legitimate "... while black" outrage.

I wonder what the mitigating factor is, in this case.

Venom 2nd October 2019 11:20 AM

Now they are obliged to track the kid for years to come, possibly offer counseling.

You don't want him to develop violence fantasies from this.

theprestige 2nd October 2019 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockysmith76 (Post 12841762)
Correct: They're more interested in appearances and the status quo; to them the victim making noise about is the trouble maker, messed up as that is.

I'm guessing that the school staff responded the way they did because the actual troublemaker is either in what they consider to be a protected class, or because a legitimate complaint would somehow ruin the actual troublemaker's life, and so to protect his interests it's necessary to suppress the complaint.

rockysmith76 2nd October 2019 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12841802)
I'm guessing that the school staff responded the way they did because the actual troublemaker is either in what they consider to be a protected class, or because a legitimate complaint would somehow ruin the actual troublemaker's life, and so to protect his interests it's necessary to suppress the complaint.

as opposed to do their jobs and deal with the problem.

theprestige 2nd October 2019 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockysmith76 (Post 12841829)
as opposed to do their jobs and deal with the problem.

I thought that went without saying. I was wrong.

wasapi 2nd October 2019 11:51 AM

It is surprising to me that this is so current. One would have to be brain dead to be unaware of the campaign against bullying. Any sign of it in the schools here, and it is instantly dealt with. And, the boy - whether encouraged or allowed, dressed the way he was, is simply wrong.

Babbylonian 2nd October 2019 12:29 PM

And to play devil's advocate, even if the child had exhibited serious behavioral problems, would it really be SOP to lock the child out of the school? As opposed to calling the parents or, in extreme cases, other civil authorities to take custody of him?

I was suspended from school once for fighting (for being punched, actually, but why try to ruin an evil policy?) and I sat in the school office and waited for my mom to be called away from work and drive from the other side of the city to take me home. At no time was there any consideration of just telling me to leave, let alone having a security guard (we didn't have them) "escort" me out of the school to find my own way.

cullennz 2nd October 2019 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12841619)
The video shows a dude pushing a kid towards the door.

The initial video in the OP didn't

Cain 2nd October 2019 01:10 PM

This kid sounds like an annoying dweeb.

cullennz 2nd October 2019 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Babbylonian (Post 12841907)
And to play devil's advocate, even if the child had exhibited serious behavioral problems, would it really be SOP to lock the child out of the school? As opposed to calling the parents or, in extreme cases, other civil authorities to take custody of him?

I was suspended from school once for fighting (for being punched, actually, but why try to ruin an evil policy?) and I sat in the school office and waited for my mom to be called away from work and drive from the other side of the city to take me home. At no time was there any consideration of just telling me to leave, let alone having a security guard (we didn't have them) "escort" me out of the school to find my own way.

Depends how true the bit about the school lying about what happened is

deadrose 2nd October 2019 01:19 PM

It wouldn't surprise me. My kids routinely got into trouble for being bullied. My oldest, in middle school, was advised that he should stay in halls within view of the office staff if he wanted to stop the physical abuse. That meant that if he went to his locker, or to class, he was "bringing it on himself" by not following advice.

Norman Alexander 2nd October 2019 01:22 PM

Be Best.

Cavemonster 2nd October 2019 01:23 PM

All appearances right now are that the school is completely in the wrong and the kid's family is telling the true version of the story.

But then again, the track record for popular news stories where a school looks absolutely crazy wrong gives me pause. In most cases it seems the situation is at least a little more complicated, so that get's my antennae up.

In this case, I think there's at least one sequence of events that would be consistent with the evidence and makes the school look a bit better.

For whatever reason, kid gets in trouble. He's taken to the principal's office and once there he's behaving in some way that he's a danger to himself, others or property. Either as a last ditch effort or according to policy for such behavior, school officials take him outdoors, with the goal that he cool down or at least be removed from things he can break or hurt himself or others with. Their instructions to him at that time are to stay with them outside the school doors with them, he runs off.

This would be consistent with the video and with the school's report that he ran off. I'm not sure if it would be ideal behavior management. Having worked a little in some low income area schools that had to manage kids with pretty extreme behavioral issues and undiagnosed disorders, ideal is a high bar. Teahcers and admin are often underfunded and there's no time or money for training them to deal with this stuff. The teacher/student ratio is often so bad, they couldn't deal with it even if they knew how.

That's not to say that's all what happened in this case, but it wouldn't be extraordinary if it were so, and kicking a 9 year old out and slamming the door would be. I try to be slow in accepting extraordinary explanations when a less extraordinary model could do the trick.

Donal 2nd October 2019 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Babbylonian (Post 12841907)
And to play devil's advocate, even if the child had exhibited serious behavioral problems, would it really be SOP to lock the child out of the school? As opposed to calling the parents or, in extreme cases, other civil authorities to take custody of him?

Seriously, growing up, I couldn't leave the school at all without some sort of adult supervision. I'm pretty sure liability and safety are bigger issues now than they were in the 80s.

Quote:

I was suspended from school once for fighting (for being punched, actually, but why try to ruin an evil policy?) and I sat in the school office and waited for my mom to be called away from work and drive from the other side of the city to take me home. At no time was there any consideration of just telling me to leave, let alone having a security guard (we didn't have them) "escort" me out of the school to find my own way.
It is insane. How can they possibly think dumping the kid out was a good idea?

applecorped 2nd October 2019 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Checkmite (Post 12841017)



Before too many people jump on the "we only have one side of the story" bandwagon, I would assert that the other side of the story doesn't actually matter in this case.

Of course the other side matters what a silly thing to say

Babbylonian 2nd October 2019 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cavemonster (Post 12841993)
All appearances right now are that the school is completely in the wrong and the kid's family is telling the true version of the story.

But then again, the track record for popular news stories where a school looks absolutely crazy wrong gives me pause. In most cases it seems the situation is at least a little more complicated, so that get's my antennae up.

In this case, I think there's at least one sequence of events that would be consistent with the evidence and makes the school look a bit better.

For whatever reason, kid gets in trouble. He's taken to the principal's office and once there he's behaving in some way that he's a danger to himself, others or property. Either as a last ditch effort or according to policy for such behavior, school officials take him outdoors, with the goal that he cool down or at least be removed from things he can break or hurt himself or others with. Their instructions to him at that time are to stay with them outside the school doors with them, he runs off.

This would be consistent with the video and with the school's report that he ran off. I'm not sure if it would be ideal behavior management. Having worked a little in some low income area schools that had to manage kids with pretty extreme behavioral issues and undiagnosed disorders, ideal is a high bar. Teahcers and admin are often underfunded and there's no time or money for training them to deal with this stuff. The teacher/student ratio is often so bad, they couldn't deal with it even if they knew how.

That's not to say that's all what happened in this case, but it wouldn't be extraordinary if it were so, and kicking a 9 year old out and slamming the door would be. I try to be slow in accepting extraordinary explanations when a less extraordinary model could do the trick.

This is an insane attempt at rationalization. A fundamental aspect of the relationship between parent, minor child, and school is that a minor child is in the custody of the school during the school day. While it may be impossible to prevent a child from leaving the school when someone gets distracted, it is supposed to be similarly impossible for a school official (be they security guard, teacher, or administrator) to allow - forget about force - a child to leave without trying to keep them in their custody. Even an older teenager walking out of a high school without an existing arrangement would be cause to immediately contact a parent.

Putting a young child out of a school without direct supervision or without transferring their custody to another appropriate adult (parent, social worker, cop, whatever) is ******* insane. There can be no excuse for it. None. Ever.

Checkmite 2nd October 2019 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cavemonster (Post 12841993)
For whatever reason, kid gets in trouble. He's taken to the principal's office and once there he's behaving in some way that he's a danger to himself, others or property. Either as a last ditch effort or according to policy for such behavior, school officials take him outdoors, with the goal that he cool down or at least be removed from things he can break or hurt himself or others with. Their instructions to him at that time are to stay with them outside the school doors with them, he runs off.

This would be consistent with the video and with the school's report that he ran off.

It's not consistent with the video in the least. After being pushed toward the door by the large security guard, the boy very clearly hesitates before opening the door - and further none of the adults makes any move to follow him outside, they just wait for him to go. The closest would be the security guard, who after the boy exits heads into the foyer to close the outside door, and then remains in the foyer as if to prevent the boy from reentering.

Checkmite 2nd October 2019 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by applecorped (Post 12842039)
Of course the other side matters what a silly thing to say

There's nothing the child conceivably could have done to justify putting the child outside unaccompanied and without a jacket; not can any circumstance justify lying to the grandparents and the police that the child "ran out of the building".

erlando 3rd October 2019 12:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cavemonster (Post 12841993)
For whatever reason, kid gets in trouble. He's taken to the principal's office and once there he's behaving in some way that he's a danger to himself, others or property. Either as a last ditch effort or according to policy for such behavior, school officials take him outdoors, with the goal that he cool down or at least be removed from things he can break or hurt himself or others with. Their instructions to him at that time are to stay with them outside the school doors with them, he runs off.

...in 40 degree weather. In a t-shirt.

Also, the video shows the adults staying inside and even locking(?) the door behind him.

alfaniner 3rd October 2019 05:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by erlando (Post 12842489)
...in 40 degree weather. In a t-shirt.

Also, the video shows the adults staying inside and even locking(?) the door behind him.

It may be that you're seeing a different version of the video, or have extreme HD, but I can't determine that. At the elementary school I was at, the outside doors locked automatically and a person had to be buzzed in unless they had a key. It looks like the kid left on his own. With no audio, I can't tell if the staff was telling him to leave or not. I can see that he was not physically forced to go outside, though.

Loss Leader 3rd October 2019 05:51 AM

I'm a parent of a special-needs child who might, when he was in grade school, run through the hallways or even, on rare occasion, try to leave the school altogether. Staff members were trained in using none or the absolute minimum force to keep him in the building. They were also trained to retrieve him - even if he got as far as the road.

So, the absolute best I'm seeing here is a woefully under-trained staff doing a very bad job with a difficult discipline issue. He, even if he was entirely wrong, should have been brought to the special ed. office with the security guard and a senior staff member should have called the parents.

Taking half a day off to calm down while they investigate charges of bullying seems reasonable. What I see in the video seems not.

Cavemonster 3rd October 2019 06:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Checkmite (Post 12842227)
It's not consistent with the video in the least. After being pushed toward the door by the large security guard, the boy very clearly hesitates before opening the door - and further none of the adults makes any move to follow him outside, they just wait for him to go. The closest would be the security guard, who after the boy exits heads into the foyer to close the outside door, and then remains in the foyer as if to prevent the boy from reentering.

As has been noted, elementary school doors lock automatically, so no one would have needed to prevent the kid from reentering. The video also ends pretty quickly after the child is outside the doors, and is sort of laggy, which means it's hard to determine how much time exactly is passing for any particular action. The fact that the security guard is still there at the end of the video means the child was being watched for the duration of the video.

I agree that it would be weird to send the kid out first instead of going out together if the intent were to wait outside together. But since it's also weird to send a kid out unaccompanied, weird is not a disqualifying factor for an explanation here. Given standard school policy and the fact that a legal action is ongoing, we can guess that the family provided the footage and the place it cuts off could be a decision the family made.

Quote:

There's nothing the child conceivably could have done to justify putting the child outside unaccompanied and without a jacket; not can any circumstance justify lying to the grandparents and the police that the child "ran out of the building".
You put "ran outside the building" in quotes, but remember, we only have that quote from the family. There is no documentation or quote from the school in the article confirming what the school told the parents. And again, in the majority of pop news stories about terrible school disciplinary action, parent accounts of what the school said, given to press tend to be less than perfect and complete. We don't really know what the school told the parents.

Remember the kid who was supposedly disciplined for biting his snack into the shape of a gun due to school zero tolerance? He was actually disciplined for harassing other kids with his "gun". Parent who are engaged in a lawsuit are a source to be taken with salt.

The school could have said "He ran off" meaning that he ran after being brought outside, and the family could have misinterpreted that or misrepresented that as a claim that he ran out of the building.

Most likely the truth will shake out in the legal proceedings.

EDIT: And again, just to clarify, I'm not saying this is what happened. The school could be exactly as terrible as the parents' story or even worse. And they could be less terrible than described but still unacceptable.

plague311 3rd October 2019 08:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cavemonster (Post 12842765)
The school could have said "He ran off" meaning that he ran after being brought outside, and the family could have misinterpreted that or misrepresented that as a claim that he ran out of the building.

Most likely the truth will shake out in the legal proceedings.

EDIT: And again, just to clarify, I'm not saying this is what happened. The school could be exactly as terrible as the parents' story or even worse. And they could be less terrible than described but still unacceptable.

He wasn't brought outside, he was pushed outside. You seem to leave off the part where he is pushed outside, in forty degree weather, without a coat. That is ignorantly stupid on the school's end. He's a child.

Again, as someone who has experience in seeing this type of behavior, I can't see a single thing in that video that would follow any sort of training.

Even IF the child was a danger to himself or others you don't then ******* release him outside without any supervision or guardianship. That's ******* stupid.

"He's a threat to himself or others!!"

"Quick, get him outside unsupervised where there's no chance to be a threat to himself or all of the people that aren't in this school which is literally millions"

Seriously? It doesn't even pass the sniff test.

Trebuchet 3rd October 2019 08:45 AM

Even if he wasn't pushed, the fact that he was allowed outside, in 40 degree weather without a coat, and unsupervised is unacceptable.

rockysmith76 3rd October 2019 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trebuchet (Post 12842928)
Even if he wasn't pushed, the fact that he was allowed outside, in 40 degree weather without a coat, and unsupervised is unacceptable.

they abandoned a child under their responsibility at best.... and are a public institution. Their actions were criminal.


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