International Skeptics Forum

International Skeptics Forum (https://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/forumindex.php)
-   Science, Mathematics, Medicine, and Technology (https://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=5)
-   -   Higgs Boson Discovered?! (https://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=239162)

MattusMaximus 2nd July 2012 03:56 PM

Higgs Boson Discovered?!
 
Despite the fact that I hate the headline ("God particle" :rolleyes: ) I am very, very interested to see what this is all about. Looks like a big announcement coming on Wednesday...

Scientists find evidence of 'God particle'
Quote:

Scientists believe the "God particle" that might explain the underpinnings of the universe is real, and they are about to present their evidence to the world.

Physicists at the world's biggest atom smasher plan to announce Wednesday that they have nearly confirmed the primary plank of a theory that could shape the scientific understanding of all matter.

The idea is much like gravity and Isaac Newton's discovery: It was there all the time before Newton explained it. But now scientists know what it is and can put that knowledge to further use.

The focus of the excitement is the Higgs boson, a subatomic particle that, if confirmed, could help explain why matter has mass, which combines with gravity to give an object weight.

Researchers at the European Organization for Nuclear Research, or CERN, say that they have compiled vast amounts of data that show the footprint and shadow of the particle - all but proving it exists, even though it has never actually been glimpsed. ...
Anyone here got an inside scoop on this? :popcorn1

PixyMisa 2nd July 2012 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MattusMaximus (Post 8419778)
Despite the fact that I hate the headline ("God particle" :rolleyes: ) I am very, very interested to see what this is all about. Looks like a big announcement coming on Wednesday...

Scientists find evidence of 'God particle'


Anyone here got an inside scoop on this? :popcorn1

Currently they're in a superposition where they both have and have not found evidence. Publication collapses the wave function, you see...

MattusMaximus 2nd July 2012 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PixyMisa (Post 8419790)
Currently they're in a superposition where they both have and have not found evidence. Publication collapses the wave function, you see...

First physics joke of the thread goes to PixyMisa!

Smart ass ;)

Checkmite 2nd July 2012 04:13 PM

Don't take this the wrong way, but how many times has CERN reported that they're close to discovering the Higgs already? Are they trying to prove the Higgs boson or Zeno's paradox?

MattusMaximus 2nd July 2012 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Checkmite (Post 8419837)
Don't take this the wrong way, but how many times has CERN reported that they're close to discovering the Higgs already? Are they trying to prove the Higgs boson or Zeno's paradox?

Yeah, that's why I'm hoping that some Forumite who works in particle physics may or may not have some kind of inside info on this. I've known for a long time that physicists have been narrowing the potential energy range for the Higgs, so what I'm really wondering is whether or not this "big announcement" is positive evidence of the Higgs or stating that "if it exists, it has to be within this super tiny energy range".

sol invictus 2nd July 2012 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Checkmite (Post 8419837)
Don't take this the wrong way, but how many times has CERN reported that they're close to discovering the Higgs already? Are they trying to prove the Higgs boson or Zeno's paradox?

Data has been gradually accumulating, but the bar for an official "discovery" is set very high in particle physics. So while the existing evidence points quite strongly towards a Higgs with mass of 125GeV, as of the previous announcement it wasn't strong enough to be considered a discovery.

As of now, much more data has been collected. So if the evidence so far was a statistical fluke, that should be apparent. If on the other hand it was real, there should be enough evidence to constitute a discovery even by the very conservative standards of particle physics.

We'll find out which it is on Wednesday.

ben m 2nd July 2012 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Checkmite (Post 8419837)
Don't take this the wrong way, but how many times has CERN reported that they're close to discovering the Higgs already? Are they trying to prove the Higgs boson or Zeno's paradox?

Well, that's basically what you expect to happen if the Higgs is really there. When you've run your accelerator for a year and have 2 Higgs events, you say "we've seen a hint"; run for another year, see 4 events, and call it a "strong hint", and upgrade and run again and see a "discovery".

If you're a lower-cost, lower-impact experiment---say, you're looking for some rare meson decay---you'll see the same thing in your internal data, but you wouldn't bother publishing/announcing until the final "discovery" business. The LHC experiments are important enough that they want to keep people up to date (and people want to know) on year-to-year progress, even if that progress is only the step from "hint" to "stronger hint".

ANYWAY: if you want to find out, tune into the webcast:

Wednesday, 4 July at 9:00 CEST
http://cern.ch/webcast

Yes, that's 9:00 Central European Summer Time, UTC+2:00.

sol invictus 2nd July 2012 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MattusMaximus (Post 8419865)
I've known for a long time that physicists have been narrowing the potential energy range for the Higgs, so what I'm really wondering is whether or not this "big announcement" is positive evidence of the Higgs or stating that "if it exists, it has to be within this super tiny energy range".

The latter has already been done, and there is already some positive evidence (something like 3 sigma for each of the two experiments). So it's either a discovery or the Higgs isn't visible at all and the minimal standard model is wrong.

MattusMaximus 2nd July 2012 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sol invictus (Post 8419886)
The latter has already been done, and there is already some positive evidence (something like 3 sigma for each of the two experiments). So it's either a discovery or the Higgs isn't visible at all and the minimal standard model is wrong.

Thanks Sol. I didn't know whether or not the energy range had been narrowed any further (or even if it could be narrowed further). I recall the 3 sigma signals awhile back, but if I'm remembering correctly the standard for a "discovery" is more like 5 sigma, right?

Wednesday should be interesting :)

MattusMaximus 2nd July 2012 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ben m (Post 8419884)
Well, that's basically what you expect to happen if the Higgs is really there. When you've run your accelerator for a year and have 2 Higgs events, you say "we've seen a hint"; run for another year, see 4 events, and call it a "strong hint", and upgrade and run again and see a "discovery".

If you're a lower-cost, lower-impact experiment---say, you're looking for some rare meson decay---you'll see the same thing in your internal data, but you wouldn't bother publishing/announcing until the final "discovery" business. The LHC experiments are important enough that they want to keep people up to date (and people want to know) on year-to-year progress, even if that progress is only the step from "hint" to "stronger hint".

ANYWAY: if you want to find out, tune into the webcast:

Wednesday, 4 July at 9:00 CEST
http://cern.ch/webcast

Yes, that's 9:00 Central European Summer Time, UTC+2:00.

Thanks Ben :)

Tubbythin 2nd July 2012 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MattusMaximus (Post 8419778)
Despite the fact that I hate the headline ("God particle" :rolleyes: ) I am very, very interested to see what this is all about. Looks like a big announcement coming on Wednesday...

Nature news article sans talk of God and atom smashers.

sol invictus 2nd July 2012 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MattusMaximus (Post 8419938)
I recall the 3 sigma signals awhile back, but if I'm remembering correctly the standard for a "discovery" is more like 5 sigma, right?

Correct.

I'd bet on a discovery, particularly if you combine the two experiments (which you should). It was pretty close to that already with the last announcement. But it will be interesting to see if the properties are as expected - there was weak preliminary evidence that the amplitude to decay to photons was much higher than expected, which would mean it can't the standard model. We'll see!

CapelDodger 2nd July 2012 05:12 PM

CERN Spokesperson : "We have looked upon the god particle."

Journalist : "What did you see?"

CERN Spokeperson : "You won't like it."

Journalist : "Why not?"

CERN Spokesperson : "Well, She's Black, to start with."

Bikewer 2nd July 2012 05:23 PM

CNN is reporting that they are inviting Peter Higgs to the announcement...

not_so_new 2nd July 2012 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bikewer (Post 8420079)
CNN is reporting that they are inviting Peter Higgs to the announcement...

That is interesting.... doesn't mean they have conclusive evidence but it does sound like they have something reasonably important to announce.

I am really interested to see what shakes out.

Dragoonster 3rd July 2012 12:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Checkmite (Post 8419837)
Don't take this the wrong way, but how many times has CERN reported that they're close to discovering the Higgs already? Are they trying to prove the Higgs boson or Zeno's paradox?

Hah! :D Exactly my thoughts. Could well be that the media is blowing very early results way out of proportion though.

And another exactly-my-thoughts to Mattus. That idiot physicist who named it "The God Particle" has made me very reluctant to follow this at all. I may (suppose) I know his point behind that description, but the description itself is asinine. Why would any competent scientist compare a fundamental force of physics to a religious entity? Does he realize how loaded that analogy is?

Again--the media just vomits "God Particle" "God Particle" "God Particle", inviting millions of religious zealots to either a) dispute that science can ever find anything "godly", or b) believe that science is trying to search for an effect-without-cause explanation, thus science is proving God! But they're trying at the same time to dispute God! Fire up the torches!

Who was that idiot physicist who coined the term? If he ever won a Nobel he should now be stripped of it.

lionking 3rd July 2012 12:27 AM

I'm delighted that the announcement, if it's made, will be made in my fair city. I wish I could say that everyone here was in an excited state (sorry), but it would be a lie.

Oh, whoever organized a conference in Melbourne in July has never had a look at our Weather Bureau website. ;)

mike3 3rd July 2012 12:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dragoonster (Post 8420887)
Who was that idiot physicist who coined the term? If he ever won a Nobel he should now be stripped of it.

Apparently, this guy:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leon_Lederman

And yes, he won a Nobel.

geni 3rd July 2012 12:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MattusMaximus (Post 8419778)
Anyone here got an inside scoop on this? :popcorn1

If they did do you think there is the faintest possibility that they would say anything? Media management generaly isn't a strong point in science but the LHC mob have shown a degree of competence in that area and are well aware that any rumours anywhere online will find their way to the the media fairly quickly.

Farsight 3rd July 2012 02:08 AM

I think it's important to keep a sense of persepective about this, and understand the distinction between the media hype, which CERN don't correct, and the physics. Take a look at A Zeptospace Odyssey: A Journey into the Physics of the LHC on Amazon. It’s by Gian Francesco Giudice, a physicist at CERN with a hundred-plus papers to his name. There's a search-inside on Amazon. If you search on Higgs sector you can read pages 173 through 175. He starts by saying: “The most inappropriate name ever given to the Higgs boson is 'The God particle'. The name gives the impression that the Higgs boson is the central particle of the Standard Model, governing its structure. But this is very far from the truth.” He also says the Higgs mechanism is “the toilet” of the standard model, and is “frightfully ad-hoc”. On page 174 he says: “It is sometimes said that the discovery of the Higgs boson will explain the mystery of the origin of mass. This statement requires a good deal of qualification.” To cut to the chase he says “In summary, the Higgs mechanism accounts for about 1 per cent of the mass of ordinary matter, and for only 0.2 per cent of the mass of the universe. This is not nearly enough to justify the claim of explaining the origin of mass.” The thing to appreciate is that the 'mystery of mass' publicity doesn’t square with E=mc². In his 1905 paper Einstein described how a radiating body loses mass. Every physicist under the sun knows that this works both ways. You can trap a massless photon in a mirrored box, whereupon it adds mass to that system. When you open the box, it’s a radiating body that loses mass. There’s absolutely no Higgs mechanism involved in that at all. So my advice is to maintain a degree of scepticism about what you read in the papers.

a_unique_person 3rd July 2012 02:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MattusMaximus (Post 8419778)
Despite the fact that I hate the headline ("God particle" :rolleyes: ) I am very, very interested to see what this is all about. Looks like a big announcement coming on Wednesday...

Scientists find evidence of 'God particle'


Anyone here got an inside scoop on this? :popcorn1

From what I have read, it was originally called the 'goddam' particle, but it wasn't seen to be a polite way to refer to it. Hence the slight change.

Dragoonster 3rd July 2012 04:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mike3 (Post 8420899)
Apparently, this guy:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leon_Lederman

And yes, he won a Nobel.

Thanks. Sorry for my bombast. Sorry to Lederman if he was just being him at the time. But at least in America, or at least in Yahoo news articles and other non-science sites I've seen, the "Higg's Boson" is only mentioned (if at all) deeply within an article of the headline "God Particle..."

And this really irks me. Waaaaaay to much fractionousness just from the term itself. Scientists should not, for example, call Evolution "The Jesus Genetics" or somesuch.

Quote:

a_unique_person]From what I have read, it was originally called the 'goddam' particle, but it wasn't seen to be a polite way to refer to it. Hence the slight change.
Didn't know that! Thanks.

Still though, don't see why if Goddamn Particle was impolite it should've been renamed God Particle. Kind of a 180-degree change, rather than slight. Or maybe you're joshing me (?)

eta: Or joshing someone, sorry, I mistakenly thought you'd replied to me instead of Mattus

Brown 3rd July 2012 05:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MattusMaximus (Post 8419778)
Anyone here got an inside scoop on this?

Perhaps the greatest psychics in the universe saw it coming (as demonstrated by the Post Your 2012 Predictions Here thread):
Quote:

Originally Posted by Brown (Post 7870304)
2. Discovery of the Higgs boson will be confirmed, but there will be a discovery of a new problem with the Standard Model.
2a. Nearly all media outlets will insist on calling the Higgs particle "The God Particle," and a group of scientists will politely ask that this naming convention be discontinued. The scientists will be personally insulted by various religious groups because of this.

The headlines over the past few days have largely used "The God Particle" in the headlines or the opening paragraphs; but some reports have mentioned (as others have observed) that the terminology was intended as a playful blasphemy rather than a term of reverence.

BenBurch 3rd July 2012 05:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mike3 (Post 8420899)
Apparently, this guy:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leon_Lederman

And yes, he won a Nobel.

My ex-boss, too.

Darat 3rd July 2012 06:02 AM

It is hardly surprising that the scientists haven't found the Higgs boson, isn't it meant to be something to do with gravity? Yet they try to detect it in a vacuum!

BenBurch 3rd July 2012 06:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darat (Post 8421297)
It is hardly surprising that the scientists haven't found the Higgs boson, isn't it meant to be something to do with gravity? Yet they try to detect it in a vacuum!

Vacuums and Gravity both suck, though, so perhaps it is supposed to work by sympathetic magic?

Cuddles 3rd July 2012 06:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sol invictus (Post 8419886)
The latter has already been done, and there is already some positive evidence (something like 3 sigma for each of the two experiments).

What I've heard is that this is going to be combined results that take it to 4 sigma. So probably not enough to say they've definitely found it but getting a lot closer and, importantly, more consistent across the different experiments.

Skeptic Ginger 3rd July 2012 06:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PixyMisa (Post 8419790)
Currently they're in a superposition where they both have and have not found evidence. Publication collapses the wave function, you see...

:D

Skeptic Ginger 3rd July 2012 06:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lionking (Post 8420898)
I'm delighted that the announcement, if it's made, will be made in my fair city. I wish I could say that everyone here was in an excited state (sorry), but it would be a lie.

Oh, whoever organized a conference in Melbourne in July has never had a look at our Weather Bureau website. ;)

I think I'd prefer July over December. It's easy enough to put a coat on. Heat waves, OTOH, not so easy to take.

edd 3rd July 2012 06:54 AM

So when they discover the Higgs boson and it has a mass of 125GeV or thereabouts, do they have to start looking for the boson that gives the Higgs boson a mass?

It's Higgs bosons all the way down!

quarky 3rd July 2012 06:56 AM

I suppose there will be a Satan particle as well?

Belz... 3rd July 2012 07:00 AM

You called ?

Roboramma 3rd July 2012 07:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by quarky (Post 8421406)
I suppose there will be a Satan particle as well?

Quarks are already quite well understood.

Dragoonster 3rd July 2012 07:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by edd (Post 8421403)
So when they discover the Higgs boson and it has a mass of 125GeV or thereabouts, do they have to start looking for the boson that gives the Higgs boson a mass?

It's Higgs bosons all the way down!

Don't you know what "God Particle" means? The Higg's boson is the end-all, be-all.

"GOD" particle. At least, that's how the media will continue to portray it, in order to garner views/clicks.


Heh, "they". I guess you're referring to scientists? They've already found the God Particle. What else is there?

[sorry, I'm using your post to be very sarcastic; and bitter]

sol invictus 3rd July 2012 08:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Farsight (Post 8420984)
I think it's important to keep a sense of persepective about this, and understand the distinction between the media hype, which CERN don't correct, and the physics. Take a look at A Zeptospace Odyssey: A Journey into the Physics of the LHC on Amazon. It’s by Gian Francesco Giudice, a physicist at CERN with a hundred-plus papers to his name. There's a search-inside on Amazon. If you search on Higgs sector you can read pages 173 through 175. He starts by saying: “The most inappropriate name ever given to the Higgs boson is 'The God particle'. The name gives the impression that the Higgs boson is the central particle of the Standard Model, governing its structure. But this is very far from the truth.” He also says the Higgs mechanism is “the toilet” of the standard model, and is “frightfully ad-hoc”. On page 174 he says: “It is sometimes said that the discovery of the Higgs boson will explain the mystery of the origin of mass. This statement requires a good deal of qualification.” To cut to the chase he says “In summary, the Higgs mechanism accounts for about 1 per cent of the mass of ordinary matter, and for only 0.2 per cent of the mass of the universe. This is not nearly enough to justify the claim of explaining the origin of mass.”

That latter claim is true - the Higgs is not the origin of most mass. But it does play an absolutely essential role, one that's quite distinct from that of any other particle in the standard model - it mediates the breaking of electroweak symmetry. The trouble is, explaining that is much more difficult than just saying "it's the origin of mass", and most people don't bother to try.

As for the Higgs mechanism being "the toilet" of the SM, I totally disagree. I think it's quite elegant and beautiful, actually. But those are of course just qualitative feelings. The facts are that the Higgs particle is an essential part of the SM, without which it is logically and mathematically inconsistent.

Beerina 3rd July 2012 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mike3 (Post 8420899)
Apparently, this guy:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leon_Lederman

And yes, he won a Nobel.

In his defense, in honor of how hard to find it it is, he wanted to rename it The Goddamn Particle.

theprestige 3rd July 2012 11:01 AM

Other than distaste for dumbing down abstruse concepts for a general audience, and the usual atheist squeamishness about any reference to "god" anywhere even as a figure of speech or colloqualism, what's the objection to calling it the "god particle"?

As sol points out (and with respect), "the Higgs particle is an essential part of the SM, without which it is logically and mathematically inconsistent."

quarky 3rd July 2012 11:05 AM

So,

The 'dog particle'?

Olowkow 3rd July 2012 11:30 AM

Quote:

...what's the objection to calling it the "god particle"?
Why not the اللهparticle?

May as well let Allah in on sharing the discovery as well. I can just imagine theists all a twitter thinking "god" has been proven.;)





quarky 3rd July 2012 11:54 AM

Hence, dog.


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:31 AM.

Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2015-24, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.