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-   -   Covid-19 and Politics (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=342577)

Pixel42 20th April 2020 12:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Planigale (Post 13061932)
Failures belong to preceding governments.

Johnson was a member of the preceding government. His party have been in power for 10 years.

Planigale 20th April 2020 12:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pixel42 (Post 13062278)
Johnson was a member of the preceding government. His party have been in power for 10 years.

Well, if people stopped personalising the issue, and stopped making silly references to Brexit which is irrelevant to the issue. It might mean that a more rational discussion could be had. The pandemic is the same whether you are a member of the EU or not. Although come to think of it South Korea, Australia, New Zealand are not a members of the EU and they did better in managing ...

Captain_Swoop 20th April 2020 02:31 AM

Is it just me or does anyone else any time they see IDS on tv have a massive urge to punch his teeth in to the back of his neck , I really despise the ********** so much

Captain_Swoop 20th April 2020 02:32 AM

There is "relatively low confidence" a delayed delivery of 400,000 protective gowns will arrive on Monday, a senior NHS figure has said.

Quote:

The consignment had been expected to arrive from Turkey on Sunday.
A minister said he was "hopeful" the Turkish flight would leave on Monday.

Culture Secretary Oliver Dowden said the government was "working very hard" to resolve the issue but added there had been "challenges at the Turkish end".
"I don't want to start making more and more promises but I understand that flight will take off this afternoon and those [gowns] will be delivered," he told BBC Breakfast.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52351029

The Don 20th April 2020 02:33 AM

From the BBC's live stream today, some sobering statistics:

Quote:

cross the UK, 16,060 people have died with coronavirus in hospitals, as of 5pm on 18 April - the latest official UK-wide figures available.

This figure, and the numbers below, are expected to be higher when non-hospital deaths are taken into account.
  • In England the total number of coronavirus deaths in hospitals is 14,400
  • A total of 575 people have died in Wales
  • There have been 194 deaths reported in Northern Ireland
  • In Scotland, 903 people who tested positive for coronavirus have died
  • The tallies for individual nations can differ from the UK-wide total, because they are calculated on a different time-frame.

In terms of testing, 372,967 people have been tested across the UK, of which 120,067 tested positive.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/worl...ost_type=share

The two sobering numbers from my perspective is the total number of fatalities and the number of tests.

Three weeks ago, Stephen Powis - the medical director of National Health Service England - said:

Quote:

When asked if Britain was on the same trajectory as Italy, where the death toll has passed 9,000, Powis said that if the public adhered to the nationwide lockdown the total toll could be kept below 20,000.

“If it is less than 20,000... that would be a good result though every death is a tragedy, but we should not be complacent about that,” he said at a news conference in Downing Street.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-h...-idUSKBN21F0HV

I fear that ship has already sailed. The additional two days and the Coronavirus deaths which aren't included in the official tally because they didn't happen in a hospital or the victim has not been tested or has not tested positive for Coronavirus means that we're probably well over 20,000 deaths and we haven't even reached the peak yet. :(

Without effective vaccine or treatment, the epidemic in the UK could have a very long tail with death rates far lower than the peak but still with tens or hundreds a day dying for months.

The other number which is alarming is the comparatively low number of tests. The government has promised 25,000 tests a day for some time and a target of 100,000 a day by the end of April. I do not have any confidence in that latter target being met, certainly not or a sustained period. The government and their scientific advisers really don't have a good idea how widespread infection has been and/or how many people have already had Coronavirus. In theory we could be in a position where, due to asymptomatic cases, we are approaching the point where herd immunity is possible (and as an added bonus have the knowledge that the mortality rate is orders of magnitude lower than feared) or we could have very low levels of infection (which is also good news of a sort because it would show that containment is working and/or it is much less transmissible than feared).

Squeegee Beckenheim 20th April 2020 03:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Don (Post 13062329)
I fear that ship has already sailed. The additional two days and the Coronavirus deaths which aren't included in the official tally because they didn't happen in a hospital or the victim has not been tested or has not tested positive for Coronavirus means that we're probably well over 20,000 deaths and we haven't even reached the peak yet. :(

Recorded daily deaths for the last week have been between about 600 and 800. The total is at 16,000. That means that unless daily deaths drop considerably, we'll pass 20,000 dead within a week.

Quote:

In theory we could be in a position where, due to asymptomatic cases, we are approaching the point where herd immunity is possible (and as an added bonus have the knowledge that the mortality rate is orders of magnitude lower than feared) or we could have very low levels of infection (which is also good news of a sort because it would show that containment is working and/or it is much less transmissible than feared).
I really wouldn't bank on herd immunity. Other coronaviruses on which it's been tested conferred immunity for about a year.

Captain_Swoop 20th April 2020 04:35 AM

Ba114 from New York just landed.
15,000 people will fly into Britain today and walk into the country without any kind of test or check.

Squeegee Beckenheim 20th April 2020 04:35 AM

Another article digging in to the early response (or lack thereof) from the UK government

Darat 20th April 2020 04:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Planigale (Post 13061410)
I am not arguing that contact tracing is not important it is. I think that some people posting here were under the impression the UK (and other countries) never undertook contact tracing. The initial response and the what happened until 12 march in the UK was all cases were contact traced. Darat's view seems to be those doing it were incompetent, because if they had been competent the outbreak would have been controlled. My point is that it is more important to know why outbreak control was better in some countries than others not just say if we did infection control better it would have worked so we should do contact tracing again. Sometimes doing something that did not work the first time, won't work when you do it again. Given the large numbers of cases the resources that would need redirecting to contact tracing at this point would be huge.

The UK is far more culturally diverse than South Korea, does this impact on contact tracing? Is the higher rate of Covid-19 in BaME persons because some communities were harder to contact trace? Was the behaviour of the virus slightly different? Australia has a very unique demography, most of the population is urban, but the urban centres are physically distant. Border control was probably important in South Korea, Australia and New Zealand. For the UK this is important to know currently because of agreement with EU it is difficult for the UK to close borders. Most of the cases in South Korea were a single point outbreak related to a church, quite different from the widespread multiple events in the UK.

I suspect that if the UK had closed its borders as soon as Italy reported person to person transmission things may have looked more like Australia.


No I have been very careful where to place my accusations of incompetence and it is not with front line staff (albeit there will be the usual percentage of incompetent individuals on the the front line).

The incompetence in this instance is easy to ascertain and it was with those that wish to govern.

Darat 20th April 2020 04:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop (Post 13062328)
There is "relatively low confidence" a delayed delivery of 400,000 protective gowns will arrive on Monday, a senior NHS figure has said.



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52351029

Hancock mustn't have wished hard enough.

Squeegee Beckenheim 20th April 2020 04:56 AM

This twitter thread by Richard Horton, the editor of the Lancet, calls out the UK government for re-writing the history of their response, by outlining how they are completely mischaracterising his stance on the epidemic.

Captain_Swoop 20th April 2020 05:52 AM

Sun Newspaper front page today

Sexy lady in a low cut dress, Pubs shut till Christmas, that **** in all the other papers about Boris is lies, Yay for climate change!

Oh, and by the way, some people died yesterday. See page 4.

The Don 20th April 2020 06:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop (Post 13062463)
Sun Newspaper front page today

Sexy lady in a low cut dress, Pubs shut till Christmas, that **** in all the other papers about Boris is lies, Yay for climate change!

Oh, and by the way, some people died yesterday. See page 4.

Is Rupert Murdoch covering all his bases w.r.t. the Prime Minister ?

The Sunday Times article published yesterday didn't pull its punches and was very critical of the government, and in particular Boris Johnson.

Mader Levap 20th April 2020 06:55 AM

It is more likely these two newspapers have different target groups.

Manger Douse 20th April 2020 07:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Don (Post 13062506)
Is Rupert Murdoch covering all his bases w.r.t. the Prime Minister ?

The Sunday Times article published yesterday didn't pull its punches and was very critical of the government, and in particular Boris Johnson.

Covering bases, even in the "same" paper - the Scottish Sun is a different beast to the one we get down south

ceptimus 20th April 2020 09:26 AM

Can one of our medical experts explain why one of the items of PPE, very much in the news in the UK today, the "gown" is important? Is it protecting the wearer or the patients, or is there some other reason for wearing it?

I understood the virus infects a person via breathing or via contact with the eyes, nose mouth. I note that the medical gowns cover most of the wearer's clothes, but not the wearer's neck.

I'm sure there must be a good reason for the gowns but I don't know what it is: maybe it's intended to protect the wearer's other clothes worn underneath the gown so those clothes don't have to be changed/discarded/washed after each trip in and out of an infected zone?

Captain_Swoop 20th April 2020 09:53 AM

Exactly that, it would be impractical to completely change your clothes a number of times through the day

Captain_Swoop 20th April 2020 09:54 AM

Now the RAF are flying to Turkey to bring back the PPE.

Planigale 20th April 2020 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ceptimus (Post 13062671)
Can one of our medical experts explain why one of the items of PPE, very much in the news in the UK today, the "gown" is important? Is it protecting the wearer or the patients, or is there some other reason for wearing it?

I understood the virus infects a person via breathing or via contact with the eyes, nose mouth. I note that the medical gowns cover most of the wearer's clothes, but not the wearer's neck.

I'm sure there must be a good reason for the gowns but I don't know what it is: maybe it's intended to protect the wearer's other clothes worn underneath the gown so those clothes don't have to be changed/discarded/washed after each trip in and out of an infected zone?

Pretty much this.

In the UK gowns are only worn in areas where there is a very high risk of generating aerosols of virus laden secretions. These deposit on all surfaces. Protective gear is a head covering, visor FFP3 (N95) mask, gown and gloves. some discussion about wearing over shoes but not normally worn. Usually under that lot people are wearing theatre scrubs that can be hot washed either at home or in the hospital laundry. With a new set worn for each shift. as scrubs are washable there is no real shortage. The gown covers arms / sleeves and reaches down to mid shin in my case, but down to knee level.

Elsewhere we are bare below the elbow in short sleeves either scrubs or short sleeved tops. Theatre / surgical masks, visors, plastic aprons and gloves. You just wash down your arms with soap and water, and either wash your own clothes or wash scrubs. If you are a petite female with any sense of modesty scrub tops have to be worn over a top any way, and if you don't want to be tripping over your trouser bottoms you end up wearing your own bottoms anyway. I find it just as easy to launder cotton T's and skirts as scrubs.

Does that answer your question?

Captain_Swoop 20th April 2020 10:13 AM

Apparently the nation is going to have a 'minutes silence' next week for the NHS staff who have died.

ceptimus 20th April 2020 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop (Post 13062718)
Apparently the nation is going to have a 'minutes silence' next week for the NHS staff who have died.

With the clapping, minute's silence, and medals to be handed out at some future date, the NHS staff must be delighted and not at all concerned about the lack of PPE, lack of testing, high risk of catching a deadly disease, poor pay, and few other minor inconveniences. :rolleyes:

ceptimus 20th April 2020 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Planigale (Post 13062711)
Does that answer your question?

Yes thank you.

Planigale 20th April 2020 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop (Post 13062718)
Apparently the nation is going to have a 'minutes silence' next week for the NHS staff who have died.

I find this creepy, and not at all reassuring or moral raising. They could at least wait until this is all over to do this or have the minutes silence for all those who have died.

Captain_Swoop 20th April 2020 11:20 AM

It will be in leu of pay

Planigale 20th April 2020 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darat (Post 13062410)
No I have been very careful where to place my accusations of incompetence and it is not with front line staff (albeit there will be the usual percentage of incompetent individuals on the the front line).

The incompetence in this instance is easy to ascertain and it was with those that wish to govern.

You seem to have a fantasy that the anyone in government was needed to instruct health protection units to do their job. They contact trace all the time for TB or meningitis or norovirus. Every winter they deal with outbreaks of flu or diarrhoea in nursing homes. Periodically they need to deal with imported illnesses such as SARS, MERS, Ebola, or HPAI. They needed no government instruction to do what they do every day. If you want a military analogy they are like recon platoons if things go well they detect probing from the enemy and close it down, if they are overwhelmed they hope to slow things down allowing time for the next stage of pandemic response to be activated. No one expects the President or Prime Minister to be instructing platoon commanders.

To quote from the Guardian article above,
Quote:

Britain was still doing quite well in containing the disease by testing, tracing contact and setting up quarantine for those suspected of being infected with Covid-19 at this time. “Then, in March, the government decided to abandon this approach and shift from containing the disease to delaying its progress,” says Wingfield. “I would really like to know why the decision to give up testing and contact tracing was taken.”
So contrary to Darat's opinion contact tracing was doing well in containing the outbreak. The reason the decision was made to stop was because the outbreak had reached scenario 3 in the ECDC pandemic response plan with sustained multi centre in country transmission. This was a predetermined stop point when a different approach was to be taken. This was not a governmental decision this was essentially a medical decision.

It looks as if (reviewing the current literature) that simple contact tracing will not be effective at controlling SARS-CoV-2. What is needed is social distancing & contact tracing. Currently the number of cases is too great for contact tracing to be effectively done. When and if the number of cases significantly falls contact tracing with social distancing may be effective. The reason I think that South Korea was effective is because their contact tracing occurred in parallel with social distancing.

Planigale 20th April 2020 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop (Post 13062822)
It will be in lieu of pay

Edited because my OCDC nature prevents me not doing so.

Some people are making money out of this by being paid quite a lot to do extra shifts, not surprisingly these are people who do quite a lot of private practice that has now folded. Our unit struck a deal that we wouldn't ask for extra pay if management would leave us alone to organise ourselves.

I appreciate that cleaners and porters are on fairly low wages and I hope are benefitting from opportunities for overtime. The rest of us are grateful to be employed when so many are losing their jobs.

Darat 20th April 2020 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Planigale (Post 13062834)
You seem to have a fantasy that the anyone in government was needed to instruct health protection units to do their job. They contact trace all the time for TB or meningitis or norovirus. Every winter...snip...

They set their own budgets do they? The answer by the way is no.

For some reason you really seem to need the senior government leaders to be held not responsible for what they want to govern.

The facts are quite clear, the UK government did not act in a competent manner, did not implement the right the policies at the right time.

P.J. Denyer 20th April 2020 11:53 AM

I'd love to know how the hospital porters and cleaners, shelf fillers, delivery drivers etc feel about having gone from easily replaced and unskilled at their last pay review to vital for the running of the country and required to risk infection by keeping working in such a short period. Especially since a relatively high number of them are foreign born and don't earn enough to qualify to enter the country under the Priti Patel scale.

Nessie 20th April 2020 12:02 PM

Apparently US oil is now worthless...

https://www.theguardian.com/world/li...latest-updates

"US oil market collapses into negative prices"

"The price of US crude oil has fallen by more than 105% on Monday as rising stockpiles of crude threaten to overwhelm oil storage facilities. It is the lowest level since futures contracts began trading in 1983.

The crash in demand caused by the pandemic has forced oil producers in Canada to start paying buyers to take the glut of oil barrels they cannot store, causing the country’s benchmark oil price to plunge into negative territory for the first time."

Captain_Swoop 20th April 2020 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nessie (Post 13062883)
Apparently US oil is now worthless...

https://www.theguardian.com/world/li...latest-updates

"US oil market collapses into negative prices"

"The price of US crude oil has fallen by more than 105% on Monday as rising stockpiles of crude threaten to overwhelm oil storage facilities. It is the lowest level since futures contracts began trading in 1983.

The crash in demand caused by the pandemic has forced oil producers in Canada to start paying buyers to take the glut of oil barrels they cannot store, causing the countryís benchmark oil price to plunge into negative territory for the first time."

I have been tracking it all evening. Down to -$40 for West Texas Crude Futures for June.

All the storage is full and it's being put on to tankers moored up to use as extra storage.

The Atheist 20th April 2020 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop (Post 13062403)
Ba114 from New York just landed.
15,000 people will fly into Britain today and walk into the country without any kind of test or check.

Not you personally, of course, but how thick are Poms?

Our border shut three weeks ago and we had 9 new cases yesterday. We can lend you Jacinda to sort the place out if you like - her job here is nearly done.

Darat 20th April 2020 12:45 PM

Covid-19 and Politics
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer (Post 13062872)
I'd love to know how the hospital porters and cleaners, shelf fillers, delivery drivers etc feel about having gone from easily replaced and unskilled at their last pay review to vital for the running of the country and required to risk infection by keeping working in such a short period. Especially since a relatively high number of them are foreign born and don't earn enough to qualify to enter the country under the Priti Patel scale.


Thatís why we pay these key workers so much. Imagine how much it would cost from the inheritance if kids had to pay for their parents care at a ďkeyĒ worker salary based on MPs salary. Warehousing the old dears needs to be done as cheaply as possible!

Perhaps since people canít go to work now we should send all old folk in care homes whose kids earn more than care workers to their kids until the lockdown is over....

Darat 20th April 2020 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Atheist (Post 13062933)
Not you personally, of course, but how thick are Poms?

Our border shut three weeks ago and we had 9 new cases yesterday. We can lend you Jacinda to sort the place out if you like - her job here is nearly done.


We voted Johnson in with a huge majority, that should answer your question.

ceptimus 20th April 2020 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nessie (Post 13062883)
Apparently US oil is now worthless...

https://www.theguardian.com/world/li...latest-updates

"US oil market collapses into negative prices"

"The price of US crude oil has fallen by more than 105% on Monday as rising stockpiles of crude threaten to overwhelm oil storage facilities. It is the lowest level since futures contracts began trading in 1983.

The crash in demand caused by the pandemic has forced oil producers in Canada to start paying buyers to take the glut of oil barrels they cannot store, causing the countryís benchmark oil price to plunge into negative territory for the first time."


They could, you know, stop pumping it out of the ground for a while. Just a suggestion.

Captain_Swoop 20th April 2020 01:24 PM

Britain will review its approach to the coronavirus pandemic to learn what it could have done better "when the time is right" says Culture Minister Oliver Dowden.

They will put it in the same drawer containing the report on Russian interference in Brexit and the election.

The Don 20th April 2020 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ceptimus (Post 13062998)
They could, you know, stop pumping it out of the ground for a while. Just a suggestion.

Sadly it's not quite that simple.

Mader Levap 20th April 2020 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ceptimus (Post 13062998)
They could, you know, stop pumping it out of the ground for a while. Just a suggestion.

More like "They should have not overinvest in new oil wells/drills/whatever five years ago.". And yes, they can be criticized for that since there were already signs back then that oil is going to go down more or less permanently. COVID-19 only moved timeline.

Squeegee Beckenheim 20th April 2020 03:01 PM

This twitter thread outlines how the UK Department of Health and Social Care faked at least 128 twitter accounts of NHS staff (many using actual staff names and pictures without the person's knowledge or permission) to publish pro-government/pro-Johnson propaganda, to support the idea of "herd immunity", and then to push the idea of re-opening the country.

On being discovered, almost all of the accounts disappeared in one fell swoop. DHSC has denied involvement and refused further comment, but the accounts have been traced to an advertising firm staffed only by three ex-DHSC staff, and with just one client - DHSC.

Planigale 20th April 2020 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darat (Post 13062853)
They set their own budgets do they? The answer by the way is no.

For some reason you really seem to need the senior government leaders to be held not responsible for what they want to govern.

The facts are quite clear, the UK government did not act in a competent manner, did not implement the right the policies at the right time.

Any policy decision would have been taken long before the outbreak occurred. Policy does not occur in a crisis. Any budget decisions would have been taken last year, allocation of budgets within the overall health budget is not a ministerial decision. You seem to imagine that ministers micro-manage the details.

I have asked you for fact but all you give is opinion. You say the government was not competent in managing contact tracing in the current outbreak but you are unable to identify in what way they were incompetent. I think the time has come for you to put up or shut up. If you can not specify the way the government was incompetent in contact tracing then my only conclusion is that you are oblivious to fact and prejudice based on 'but Brexit!'.

Vague allusions such as 'set their own budgets' just indicates that you fail to understand that these are local decisions not ministerial. That you try to blame decisions taken on the overall health budget in 2018 on the government elected in November 2019 just shows you do not understand how national budgets work. Yet alone on how local allocation is decided locally.

I have tried to explain why your obsession with blame politics is actually harmful in trying to improve and learn from the current situation. Your obsession seems to be with BoJo bad, so we would be Covid free if Corbyn had been elected? Does not explain why things are the same in France, Holland, Sweden, Belgium, Italy, Spain etc. There is no uniquely bad outcome for the UK. The European policy to a pandemic was clearly set out and was followed by the current government. What you are arguing is that they should not have followed the EU policy, but followed a separate UK policy. You can go and look at the prestated policy if you really wanted to, but you don't, you prefer a biased uninformed opinion. In retrospect would different decisions at different times have been more effective - Yes. Prospectively was a decision wrong - No. There was no clear right or wrong. My guess is you could not bring yourself to say that the current government did anything right. When you are able to give a balanced response saying these were good decisions but these were bad ones, then one could trust that there was some form of rational analysis. So long as all I hear is BoJo bad, Brexit bad, I find it difficult to think you have looked objectively at the facts.

https://assets.publishing.service.go...8_2019_web.pdf

P.J. Denyer 20th April 2020 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Atheist (Post 13062933)
Not you personally, of course, but how thick are Poms?

Have you seen the picture of Johnson stuck on a zipwire holding little Union Jacks? We still made him Prime Minister. People on minimum wage, zero hour contracts can be persuaded that millionaire ex public schoolboys like Johnson, Cameron, Farage and Rees ******* Mogg are 'men of the people' and protecting them from the nasty EU.

That's how thick we are.

Scary, isn't it?

Planigale 20th April 2020 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim (Post 13063112)
This twitter thread outlines how the UK Department of Health and Social Care faked at least 128 twitter accounts of NHS staff (many using actual staff names and pictures without the person's knowledge or permission) to publish pro-government/pro-Johnson propaganda, to support the idea of "herd immunity", and then to push the idea of re-opening the country.

On being discovered, almost all of the accounts disappeared in one fell swoop. DHSC has denied involvement and refused further comment, but the accounts have been traced to an advertising firm staffed only by three ex-DHSC staff, and with just one client - DHSC.

I am not hugely impressed by the factual nature of twitter comments previously posted. Do we have any support for this as more than 'gossip'?

'Re-opening' the country does not appear to be current government policy so this would appear to be pushing some non-governmental policy making it more likely it was a non-governmental body who did this.

Why is the advertising agency not identified? The picture of an alleged junior doctor on the twitter feed has a badge saying 'Staff Nurse'.

This has an aura of fake news. I would hope on a skeptic site more effort would be made to verify things before posting them. Of course if I am wrong then I will admit it, but I think this will vanish into another fake twitter rumour.

angrysoba 20th April 2020 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Don (Post 13062506)
Is Rupert Murdoch covering all his bases w.r.t. the Prime Minister ?

The Sunday Times article published yesterday didn't pull its punches and was very critical of the government, and in particular Boris Johnson.

I think it is a mistake to always assume everything in a Murdoch paper is pushing his agenda. His company is the owner, not the editor of his papers. I think itís unlikely that he is able to keep track on everything being published in his papers and broadcast on his networks.

a_unique_person 20th April 2020 08:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by angrysoba (Post 13063177)
I think it is a mistake to always assume everything in a Murdoch paper is pushing his agenda. His company is the owner, not the editor of his papers. I think itís unlikely that he is able to keep track on everything being published in his papers and broadcast on his networks.

If you are a politician and Murdoch invites you to dinner, you don't turn him down.

Nessie 21st April 2020 01:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Planigale (Post 13063136)
I am not hugely impressed by the factual nature of twitter comments previously posted. Do we have any support for this as more than 'gossip'?

'Re-opening' the country does not appear to be current government policy so this would appear to be pushing some non-governmental policy making it more likely it was a non-governmental body who did this.

Why is the advertising agency not identified? The picture of an alleged junior doctor on the twitter feed has a badge saying 'Staff Nurse'.

This has an aura of fake news. I would hope on a skeptic site more effort would be made to verify things before posting them. Of course if I am wrong then I will admit it, but I think this will vanish into another fake twitter rumour.

I saw that and searched @nhs_susan and found many confirmations that account did exist and has since disappeared.

https://twitter.com/search?q=%40nhs_...t_search_click

The nurse, called Susan whose photo is used in the account has been identified as "Mia Magklavani, 29, paediatrics staff nurse, from Greece" the photo of her is from a trade union site;

http://www.seftonunison.co.uk/news/post/meet-our-nhs

There is no doubt the account is fake. The issue is tracing it back to the Department of Health & Social care.

Squeegee Beckenheim 21st April 2020 01:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Planigale (Post 13063136)
I am not hugely impressed by the factual nature of twitter comments previously posted. Do we have any support for this as more than 'gossip'?

There's more evidence than just "gossip" in the thread posted.

We should, of course, always be sceptical and I never post anything with the claim that it's the absolute truth (seriously, the number of times I have to actually write this out on a site ostensibly dedicated to critical thinking is depressing), but we shouldn't just dismiss the evidence that exists out of hand.

Quote:

'Re-opening' the country does not appear to be current government policy so this would appear to be pushing some non-governmental policy making it more likely it was a non-governmental body who did this.
This again indicates that you've not actually bothered to read what you're criticising.

Quote:

Why is the advertising agency not identified?
Read the actual thread.

Quote:

The picture of an alleged junior doctor on the twitter feed has a badge saying 'Staff Nurse'.
Yes. That's part of the point. She's also got a different name (as you can see on her badge), and is at a different hospital than was claimed in her profile.

If you'd actually read the thread you'd see that she's not a doctor called Susan at all, but rather immigrant paediatrics nurse Mia Magklavani: https://www.unison.org.uk/news/magaz.../meet-our-nhs/

Quote:

I would hope on a skeptic site more effort would be made to verify things before posting them.
I would hope on a sceptic site people would understand that scepticism from everybody of anything posted should be assumed by the person posting it, and that they can safely assume that they're posting for intelligent, informed adults who don't need their hands held by having absolutely everything labelled with "but, of course, we should be sceptical". I'm honestly starting to despair of how often I have to point this out on here these days.

I'd also have thought that people on a sceptic site should be expected to actually read a given source before dismissing it as "gossip".

Captain_Swoop 21st April 2020 02:48 AM

Why is anyone surprised. Remember Tory press office renamed it's twitter account to 'Fact Check UK' in the run up to the election and tweeted falsehoods about Jeremy Corbin and Labour.

The Don 21st April 2020 03:10 AM

More interesting statistics this morning:

Quote:

Deaths in England and Wales have risen sharply above what would be expected, hitting a 20-year high.

The Office for National Statistics said there were 18,500 deaths in the week up to 10 April - about 8,000 more than is normal at this time of year.

More than 6,200 were linked to coronavirus, a sixth of which were outside of hospital.

But deaths from other causes also increased, suggesting the lockdown may be having an indirect impact on health.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-52361519

The snipped quote pretty much says it all IMO. I'm encouraged that the number of Coronavirus deaths outside hospital is relatively low.

Susheel 21st April 2020 03:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop (Post 13062718)
Apparently the nation is going to have a 'minutes silence' next week for the NHS staff who have died.

Wow ... the Modi fanboys in India are going to have orgasms. There is going to be a huge campaign about how Modi is "showing the world the way". Here had his acolytes lighting candles and banging on plates.

Squeegee Beckenheim 21st April 2020 04:41 AM

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1252362012845207552

Quote:

The leaked document attached to this ⁦@openDemocracy⁩ story is extraordinary. It seems to imply Public Health England core #COVID19 test is much less reliable than commercial alternatives. Questions for ⁦@MattHancock⁩
Article embedded in tweet, and more information and relevant links in subsequent tweets.

P.J. Denyer 21st April 2020 06:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop (Post 13063539)
Why is anyone surprised. Remember Tory press office renamed it's twitter account to 'Fact Check UK' in the run up to the election and tweeted falsehoods about Jeremy Corbin and Labour.

A really good point. Thanks, I'd forgotten about that in the deluge of other things this party of government has done.


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