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-   -   9/11: How they Faked the Videos (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=341275)

bknight 27th January 2020 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ozeco41 (Post 12967909)
So true. And the "burden" is to present the proof that they rely on. In this case those representatives of "officialdom" who presented the extant hypothesis. And who have met their burden of proof by presenting the proof they rely on. (We could include the many professionals who support the same but lets keep it simple to expose Yankee's dishonesty.)

Here is where you go astray yankee451. (And given you have been playing this nonsense for years it CANNOT be ignorance - so it must be deliberate lying.)
Hogwash of course. THAT is the claim to which BoP attaches - YOUR claim that the extant hypothesis is wrong. Your burden to prove your claim that the so called "official version" is wrong. Or at the least those bits YOU claim are wrong.

OK - if we take that as near enough what YOU claim is wrong. YOUR Burden of Proof to support YOUR claim.

He doesn't get it that it his opinion/belief that needs to be proved, not that the event happened as partially seen live on TV. He needs to prove that all the individuals imaging the event were given the ability to do CGI on there images, how were mats applied in real time to the building to perform those CGI"s.
He has nothing to prove these allegations. All he does is post/repost the same images and descriptions. He can't even do the math to figure out that yes the planes disintegrated as they were plowing into the buildings.

Jack by the hedge 27th January 2020 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leftus (Post 12968152)
Yes, what motivation would they possibly have to expose a giant coverup where US forces killed US civilians. They would almost definitely keep that under their hat. There aren't any geopolitical advantages in exposing such corruption either. None what so ever. They would never try to destabilize the US or even think about trying to lower the profile the US had on the world stage. That would be rude.

Yes. And the same applies to Iran and Iraq. Saddam Hussein bravely took one for the team. (Even though we don't actually know who the team is. But it's obviously very big and very sinister.) Anyway, Saddam not only knew that Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11 but he knew the US government did it themselves and he went to his death breathing not a word of this terrible secret, protecting the US government right to the end. What a guy.

Itchy Boy 27th January 2020 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smartcooky (Post 12967954)
And here is what you are missing.

The difference between the densities of the ping ping ball and the blade is slightly colossal; at least a couple of orders of magnitude greater than the difference between the building (a hollow, extended cubical structure composed of 90% air and 10% building materials ) and the aircraft (a hollow tubular structure composed of 90% air and 10% aluminium superstructure).

You seem to have this picture in your head of the aircraft being "swallowed whole", of remaining largely intact until it disappeared from sight. Get this picture out of your head, its wrong; it is not what happened - it only looks like that from the outside.

In reality, the aircraft started to crush and deform from the moment of impact. At the point where the wing roots are entering the building, the forward fuselage has already disintegrated beyond recognition.

I was waiting to see what mental contortions you lot would resort to to protect your world view. The picture of the plane swallowed hole isn't just in my head, it's in the videos. And it's not about the density of the building as a whole, only the wall.

bknight 27th January 2020 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Itchy Boy (Post 12968323)
I was waiting to see what mental contortions you lot would resort to to protect your world view. The picture of the plane swallowed hole isn't just in my head, it's in the videos. And it's not about the density of the building as a whole, only the wall.

And you fail physics 101 very badly. The slow frame rate of the videos you watch won't allow you to see the destruction of the plane as it destructing the columns at the same time and then all of this is masked by the huge fireball of fuel igniting.

Itchy Boy 27th January 2020 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak (Post 12968048)
In consecutive posts, no less. :rolleyes:

Get a dictionary and look up the difference between 'distrust' and 'disbelieve'.

bknight 27th January 2020 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Itchy Boy (Post 12968334)
Get a dictionary and look up the difference between 'distrust' and 'disbelieve'.

Ok I distrust you and dis believe you and your beliefs. Is that good enough for you?

Jack by the hedge 27th January 2020 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Itchy Boy (Post 12968323)
The picture of the plane swallowed hole isn't just in my head, it's in the videos.

Have you ever heard of data compression? It produces a whole range of interesting effects which aren't like the familiar flaws we are used to seeing in low quality analog video.

I recall watching a TV drama where the picture quality looked okay but every so often in dimly lit scenes you'd notice a character's features seemed somehow to float around, as if they could move independently on their face. And a US Grand Prix where the low data rate link back to the UK produced bizarre effects such as distant cars passing behind lighting poles but seeming to disappear behind each pole before popping out of the other side like something from a Chuck Jones cartoon.

Maybe you should rein in your expectations for the level of detail you expect to perceive in a video so blurred that you can't even see the columns on the WTC wall.

Itchy Boy 27th January 2020 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bknight (Post 12968333)
And you fail physics 101 very badly. The slow frame rate of the videos you watch won't allow you to see the destruction of the plane as it destructing the columns at the same time and then all of this is masked by the huge fireball of fuel igniting.

Hogwash, or as you lot like to say, 'Gish Gallup'. Prove your assertion. You know full well that he fireball only begins after the entire plane has disappeared into the building.dd
Using the video frame rate or resolution as an excuse doesn't cut it. You're going to have to be a lot more creative to continue believing the videos aren't fake.

Itchy Boy 27th January 2020 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge (Post 12968352)
Have you ever heard of data compression? It produces a whole range of interesting effects which aren't like the familiar flaws we are used to seeing in low quality analog video.

I recall watching a TV drama where the picture quality looked okay but every so often in dimly lit scenes you'd notice a character's features seemed somehow to float around, as if they could move independently on their face. And a US Grand Prix where the low data rate link back to the UK produced bizarre effects such as distant cars passing behind lighting poles but seeming to disappear behind each pole before popping out of the other side like something from a Chuck Jones cartoon.

Maybe you should rein in your expectations for the level of detail you expect to perceive in a video so blurred that you can't even see the columns on the WTC wall.

See my reply to bknight. The picture quality argument falls flat. the quality is good enough to see bits falling to the ground AFTER the explosion. Did the video quality improve in the time between impact and fireball?

Itchy Boy 27th January 2020 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bknight (Post 12968339)
Ok I distrust you and dis believe you and your beliefs. Is that good enough for you?

Suit yourself.

sts60 27th January 2020 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Itchy Boy (Post 12967864)
Great, I don't want to get into the landings either. But since you have MCC eperience, why don't you briefly enlighten me on how controllers could have known the differnence between the data they received in the simulations and what they would have received during a real mission.

I promise not to respond, so we don't get into it. I'd just like to know.

Briefly, the data is realistic enough to allow the operators to monitor and respond, but while it’s enough to sell the temporary experience, it’s not enough to overcome all the differences with reality for a weeklong mission (let alone the physical realities of tracking). And in any case, simulations needed to be paused, restarted, and “green-carded” - basically, “pretend you saw this on your screen so we can proceed”.

But, far more importantly - and here’s the limited scope fallacy in action - this ignores the staggeringly vast and detailed Apollo record, as well as that of numerous other programs and scientific investigations.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Itchy Boy (Post 12967870)
I'm not leaning on Apollo to support any claims about 9/11. I'm only trying to point out that the 'thousands had to be in on it'argument is specious. That is all.So let's drop it.

Every time you mention Apollo in claiming how many people should or should have not been required for a hoax, that’s exactly what you’re doing. The problem is, you undercut yourself by demonstrating that your certainty of how things should be is way off in another field.

smartcooky 27th January 2020 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Itchy Boy (Post 12968323)
I was waiting to see what mental contortions you lot would resort to to protect your world view. The picture of the plane swallowed hole isn't just in my head, it's in the videos. And it's not about the density of the building as a whole, only the wall.

Failed again!

This not what I see in the videos at all... its what you have convinced yourself that you see!

bknight 27th January 2020 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Itchy Boy (Post 12968355)
Hogwash, or as you lot like to say, 'Gish Gallup'. Prove your assertion. You know full well that he fireball only begins after the entire plane has disappeared into the building.dd
Using the video frame rate or resolution as an excuse doesn't cut it. You're going to have to be a lot more creative to continue believing the videos aren't fake.

And how creative are you? Trotting out CT beliefs that aren't supported by physics. Yes the frame rate is very important, because most of the destruction is done in less than one second. Get a grip on reality. Learn some science.

Itchy Boy 27th January 2020 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge (Post 12968309)
Yes. And the same applies to Iran and Iraq. Saddam Hussein bravely took one for the team. (Even though we don't actually know who the team is. But it's obviously very big and very sinister.) Anyway, Saddam not only knew that Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11 but he knew the US government did it themselves and he went to his death breathing not a word of this terrible secret, protecting the US government right to the end. What a guy.

What good would it do when he would only suffer the same ridicule and disbelief that is heaped on posters here, even when you 'debunkers's prove yourselves wrong, as has happened here?

Jack by the hedge 27th January 2020 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Itchy Boy (Post 12968359)
See my reply to bknight. The picture quality argument falls flat. the quality is good enough to see bits falling to the ground AFTER the explosion. Did the video quality improve in the time between impact and fireball?

It appears you read my post but did not comprehend it. One very common artefact of digital video compression is that small details are not rendered while large parts of the picture are busily changing. A typical example would be a picture which blurs when stuff moves but sharpens quickly when things stay still. This is very basic stuff yet you seem unaware of it.

Jack by the hedge 27th January 2020 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Itchy Boy (Post 12968372)
What good would it do when he would only suffer the same ridicule and disbelief that is heaped on posters here, even when you 'debunkers's prove yourselves wrong, as has happened here?

Yeah, that must be it. Might as well let himself be hanged to protect GWB. Why even try? Who'd believe him?

This is all super-convincing. I'm now totally sold on the idea that China, Russia, Iran and Iraq all knew the US government did it but they all kept quiet about it because... Something.

Itchy Boy 27th January 2020 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AJM8125 (Post 12968075)
No, it reinforces that and your lack of understanding of video.

you're going to have to reach a whole lot farther than that lameness.d

beachnut 27th January 2020 11:20 AM

Video analysis fail, "frame rate" foils liars again
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Itchy Boy (Post 12967950)
I expect to see damage to the plane upon impact, similar to what beachnut's ping pong video shows. I owe beachnut a 'thank you' for proving that the plane impact videos are fake.

Have you proved Radar is fake? Bragging about not knowing why we see the ping pong ball break up, and the plane also breaking up but you don't see it is a matter of knowing video. You don't know physics, and you don't have clue why you fail to see a plane breaking up on slow speed low resolution video. So you keep spreading lies based on your ignorance of video and physics. You post proves your ignorance on these subjects.

There were parts all over. But you like to make up stuff you can't prove.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wc-zmb3jAgo
Just like the ping pong ball putting hole in the paddle, it breaks the handle, as we see the plane entered the WTC and broke off sections of the exterior.

You can't explain what caused the impact hole in your fantasy world of woo. Was it explosives? Sorry, there were no blast from explosives. No one suffered from an explosion. The jet fuel fireball, how did it occur in your plane free fantasy based on your ignorance of physics, video, and by ignoring the facts, witnesses, Radar, and reality in general.

There is damage to the plane, but you have no clue what the difference between 30,000 frames per second and 24/30/60 frames per second is.

Flight 175 going 865 f/s (feet per second for the physics/math challenged) at impact.
The mass of flight 175 after entering the WTC shell was still traveling over 560 f/s.

In less than a quarter second the 767 is gone, broken up and parts going all over inside the WTC. Less than 15 frames to see 160 foot long aircraft break up at a distance where there are less than 400 pixels for the entire aircraft. And you can't see it break up. You can't grasp this limitation of video, and there is more you don't know.

You can't see 20 or so pixels of the wing break up against the WTC shell, but I can because I know the limitations of what I see due to the limitations of the video. You don't know your limitations.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2SLb05HMNKI

And you don't have a clue

Itchy Boy 27th January 2020 11:22 AM

"When an honest man discovers he is mistaken, he will either cease to be mistaken or cease to be honest." -Anonymous

ETA: When a 'debunker' discovers he is mistaken, he's still right.

Leftus 27th January 2020 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Itchy Boy (Post 12968372)
What good would it do when he would only suffer the same ridicule and disbelief that is heaped on posters here, even when you 'debunkers's prove yourselves wrong, as has happened here?

That must have been his exact thoughts as the platform swung and he was at the end of the rope, "whatever will the people on the internet think?"


Some minor ridicule vs. being hanged. Seriously, who could survive the former?

AJM8125 27th January 2020 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Itchy Boy (Post 12968380)
you're going to have to reach a whole lot farther than that lameness.d

Aren't you the one who believes a low resolution compressed YouTube video that was shot on a camcorder should show details comparable to a high resolution video shot on a high speed camera?

Talk about lameness.

smartcooky 27th January 2020 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Itchy Boy (Post 12968387)
"When an honest man discovers he is mistaken, he will either cease to be mistaken or cease to be honest." -Anonymous

ETA: When a 'debunker' discovers he is mistaken, he's still right.

You haven't ceased to be honest, you never were. You have been dishonest from the start.

None of us debunkers, i.e. sane, reasonable thinking people who undertstand what they are looking at, have discovered anything (except perhaps how dishonest no-planers are). What we know is that the towers and the Pentagon were hit by airliners travelling at high velocities, and we know this because...

- the passengers and the hijackers are seen embarking on the airliners and are now missing
- the airliners were seen taking off but no longer exist
- the airliners were tracked on ATC radar
- hundreds of people under the flight paths saw the airliners in the places where the radar put them at the time
- dozens of videos of the airliners' impacts were taken from multiple angles
- thousands of witnesses saw the airliners' impacts from multiple angles
- there are mountains of physical evidence such as airliner plane parts (many of them directly traceable back to those very same missing planes), jet fuel residue and passenger DNA

In short, the evidence that airliners impacted the towers and the Pentagon is utterly overwhelming. The evidence that missiles hit those buildings is nada, zilch, zippo, bupkis.

Anyway, you and Yankee451 are a waste of time and space. Both of you have fallen so far down the rabbit hole that you are irretrievable - a lost cause.

Jack by the hedge 27th January 2020 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smartcooky (Post 12968431)
You haven't ceased to be honest, you never were. You have been dishonest from the start.

None of us debunkers, i.e. sane, reasonable thinking people who undertstand what they are looking at, have discovered anything (except perhaps how dishonest no-planers are). What we know is that the towers and the Pentagon were hit by airliners travelling at high velocities, and we know this because...

- the passengers and the hijackers are seen embarking on the airliners and are now missing
- the airliners were seen taking off but no longer exist
- the airliners were tracked on ATC radar
- hundreds of people under the flight paths saw the airliners in the places where the radar put them at the time
- dozens of videos of the airliners' impacts were taken from multiple angles
- thousands of witnesses saw the airliners' impacts from multiple angles
- there are mountains of physical evidence such as airliner plane parts (many of them directly traceable back to those very same missing planes), jet fuel residue and passenger DNA

In short, the evidence that airliners impacted the towers and the Pentagon is utterly overwhelming. The evidence that missiles hit those buildings is nada, zilch, zippo, bupkis.

Anyway, you and Yankee451 are a waste of time and space. Both of you have fallen so far down the rabbit hole that you are irretrievable - a lost cause.

The thing which impresses me most about the evil plotters is not that they managed to create dozens of fake videos but they somehow managed to suppress all the real videos. And photos. And eyewitnesses.

How on earth did the Men In Black find everyone who grabbed a video camera that day? Or did they just kill everyone within 15 miles with some kind of neutron bomb and replace them all with replicants?

It's clearly a lot of work. Mighty impressive.

abaddon 27th January 2020 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Itchy Boy (Post 12968359)
See my reply to bknight. The picture quality argument falls flat. the quality is good enough to see bits falling to the ground AFTER the explosion. Did the video quality improve in the time between impact and fireball?

Is it? OK, bless us with your wisdom. Given the poor resolution of the videos you use, calculate the size of the smallest piece of debris which can be resolved. Show your calculations.

You have no idea how to do that, do you?

smartcooky 27th January 2020 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge (Post 12968461)
The thing which impresses me most about the evil plotters is not that they managed to create dozens of fake videos but they somehow managed to suppress all the real videos. And photos. And eyewitnesses.

How on earth did the Men In Black find everyone who grabbed a video camera that day? Or did they just kill everyone within 15 miles with some kind of neutron bomb and replace them all with replicants?

It's clearly a lot of work. Mighty impressive.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/z64sq9i37v...yzer.jpg?raw=1

Standard issue for all MiB agents

GlennB 27th January 2020 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by abaddon (Post 12968483)
Is it? OK, bless us with your wisdom. Given the poor resolution of the videos you use, calculate the size of the smallest piece of debris which can be resolved. Show your calculations.

You have no idea how to do that, do you?

In a rational world this should be rather a telling question. I wonder what the response will be?

smartcooky 27th January 2020 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by abaddon (Post 12968483)
Is it? OK, bless us with your wisdom. Given the poor resolution of the videos you use, calculate the size of the smallest piece of debris which can be resolved. Show your calculations.

You have no idea how to do that, do you?

Oooh, I can do that!

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ou5s8itnfh...20Me.jpg?raw=1

bknight 27th January 2020 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smartcooky (Post 12968497)

You are obviously DQ because you have knowledge. ;)

smartcooky 27th January 2020 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bknight (Post 12968526)
You are obviously DQ because you have knowledge. ;)


Yeah, and it didn't come from Google..

When I acquired that knowledge, "Network" was a movie starring Faye Dunaway, Peter Finch, William Holden and Robert Duvall, a "troll" was an ugly, Scandinavian dwarf that ate goats and scared children, and "internet" was a word that had not yet been invented (it was still called "ARPANET")

And Google... that was a number; a one with a hundred zeros after it - spelled "googol"

PS: and trolls are still ugly

Itchy Boy 27th January 2020 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by abaddon (Post 12968483)
Is it? OK, bless us with your wisdom. Given the poor resolution of the videos you use, calculate the size of the smallest piece of debris which can be resolved. Show your calculations.

You have no idea how to do that, do you?

The resolution is good enough to make out pieces of paper flying out of the building, most of which are probably less than 12 inches square.

smartcooky 27th January 2020 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Itchy Boy (Post 12968569)
The resolution is good enough to make out pieces of paper flying out of the building, most of which are probably less than 12 inches square.


Nah, that does not answer the question. I thought you would fail

Itchy Boy 27th January 2020 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smartcooky (Post 12968570)
Nah, that doe not answer the question. I thought you would fail

Whether or not I can make the calculations, the resolution is good enough to see what we need to see. So I don't have to make the effort just to humour people for whom no answer is good enough and will never admit they're wrong. Because, as I've said before- to admit you're wrong about something like this will remove this site's reason for being and your reason for being here. It's never going to happen no matter what proof I could present.

beachnut 27th January 2020 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Itchy Boy (Post 12968580)
Whether or not I can make the calculations, the resolution is good enough to see what we need to see. So I don't have to make the effort just to humour people for whom no answer is good enough to shake their deeply held beliefs.

Go ahead, prove what the video should look like with math. Prove it.

Darn you don't do math. Guess your claim remains BS, just talk based on paranoia of the deep state in your fantasy version of 9/11, reality, and the world.

No proof of fake videos, only talk based on ignorance.

curious cat 27th January 2020 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Itchy Boy (Post 12967966)
Regardless, in each case, we seer real crash physics - the ball breaks in in your MB vid, pieces even bounce backwards. Fake plane videos proven! Well done gentlemen.

After me clarifying my (insignificant for this case anyway) mistake with the water and further explaining the mechanics of the disintegration of the ball it may be time to retract your thanks to us, don't you think?
BTW: I know you don't.:D

Robin 27th January 2020 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Itchy Boy (Post 12968387)
"When an honest man discovers he is mistaken, he will either cease to be mistaken or cease to be honest." -Anonymous

ETA: When a 'debunker' discovers he is mistaken, he's still right.

Let's get that in perspective by quoting your earlier words:

Quote:

besides, showing what a cruise missile does to 'prove' what a jumbo jet would do, makes no sense to me.
And yet you see sense in using a ping-pong ball to prove what a jumbo jet would do?

Me, I say that the shattering of the airframe of a 767 is more like the shattering of the airframe of a cruise missile than it is the shattering of a ping-pong ball.

You apparently are saying that the shattering of the airframe of a 767 is more like the shattering of a ping-pong ball than it is the shattering of the airframe of a cruise missile.

I think you would have to list your points of comparison between a 767 and a ping-pong ball.

If you can convince me that a 767 is more like a ping pong ball than a cruise missile, I will happily admit I am wrong.

If not then I will still have to go with the idea that the shattering of the airframe of the cruise missile where you can't see any visible wing or airframe debris bouncing off (although we know that the debris must be there) is the more valid comparison.

Robin 27th January 2020 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Itchy Boy (Post 12968569)
The resolution is good enough to make out pieces of paper flying out of the building, most of which are probably less than 12 inches square.

Just out of interest, can you point out one of these pieces of paper, I have just frame-by-framed through the whole thing and can't see any.

Robin 27th January 2020 03:12 PM

Oh, and just to pass the time, can someone tell me what this is?

https://robinsrevision.files.wordpre...-23.png?w=1024

abaddon 27th January 2020 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smartcooky (Post 12968486)


The game is up. Yankee has discovered that aircraft wings only experience vertical loads and no other. Who knew?

abaddon 27th January 2020 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robin (Post 12968683)
Oh, and just to pass the time, can someone tell me what this is?

https://robinsrevision.files.wordpre...-23.png?w=1024

A big grey rectangle?

No idea?

smartcooky 27th January 2020 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Itchy Boy (Post 12968580)
Whether or not I can make the calculations, the resolution is good enough to see what we need to see.

No, it isn't

Quote:

Originally Posted by Itchy Boy (Post 12968580)
So I don't have to make the effort just to humour people for whom no answer is good enough

That's just a cop out. You don't make the effort because you are incapable of grasping grade school science and mathematics

You don't even know where to start

Quote:

Originally Posted by Itchy Boy (Post 12968580)
and will never admit they're wrong. Because, as I've said before- to admit you're wrong about something like this will remove this site's reason for being and your reason for being here. It's never going to happen no matter what proof I could present.

I will always admit that I am wrong, when I am wrong

So far, nether you nor yankee451 have presented anything that even remotely begins to come close to overturning established fact.

The only fact here is that you are both incapable of of understand basic physics and maths, and frankly, I think you are both incapable of learning anything. In order to learn, you have to WANT to understand. All you want to do is wallow in your single-minded, narrowly focussed conspirational echo chambers.


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