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-   -   Senator Al Franken Kissed and Groped Me Without My Consent, And There’s Nothing Funny (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=324808)

xjx388 7th December 2017 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward (Post 12105945)
To do what? I'm completely content to stop talking to the guy over that.

My siblings-in-law are all teachers. I've known them since they were 6 or 7. If one of them was accused of sexually assaulting one of their students, especially 20 or 30 years from now, I wouldn't believe it. I would defend them. Unless of course, there was evidence other than a story.

Bob001 7th December 2017 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LTC8K6 (Post 12105666)
How would Moore falsify that 40 year old claim? The claim doesn't even have a particular day so that Moore could show that he was out of town, for example.
.....

Here's the original Post story about Moore's teen-age girls, supported by interviews with 30 people and contemporary records. Subsequent stories have included additional details and corroboration by other accusers.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/inves...=.16675ee885ce

And unlike Bigfoot, Moore and his accusers and their families are real.

BobTheCoward 7th December 2017 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xjx388 (Post 12105971)
My siblings-in-law are all teachers. I've known them since they were 6 or 7. If one of them was accused of sexually assaulting one of their students, especially 20 or 30 years from now, I wouldn't believe it. I would defend them. Unless of course, there was evidence other than a story.

This goes to something I said to logger (or TBd, people are starting to blend together)

Where is this decades matter thing coming from? Do we have any evidence that more false accusations are made as time goes on?

Bob001 7th December 2017 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward (Post 12105981)
This goes to something I said to logger (or TBd, people are starting to blend together)

Where is this decades matter thing coming from? Do we have any evidence that more false accusations are made as time goes on?

In the Moore case, Post reporters investigating him heard reports about his (alleged) activities, and they sought out and interviewed the woman who spoke first. Others then stepped up and described their own (alleged) experiences.

It's clear that women keep silent for a lot of reasons: shame, denial, fear of retaliation, belief that they did something wrong themselves, etc., etc. Once the first person speaks up, others feel free to say "Yeah, that sounds like what happened to me!" because they know they're not alone. In Moore's case, people who worked with him in his office have said he had a notable predilection for tee-age girls.

thaiboxerken 7th December 2017 04:18 PM

Now that Franken has decided to resign, Democrats can claim the high, moral ground.




...when has that ever paid dividends against Republicans?

BobTheCoward 7th December 2017 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob001 (Post 12105988)
In the Moore case, Post reporters investigating him heard reports about his (alleged) activities, and they sought out and interviewed the woman who spoke first. Others then stepped up and described their own (alleged) experiences.

It's clear that women keep silent for a lot of reasons: shame, denial, fear of retaliation, belief that they did something wrong themselves, etc., etc. Once the first person speaks up, others feel free to say "Yeah, that sounds like what happened to me!" because they know they're not alone. In Moore's case, people who worked with him in his office have said he had a notable predilection for tee-age girls.

I wasn't asking about Moore. I'm asking about whether decades since the event affects false accusations rates.

BobTheCoward 7th December 2017 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken (Post 12105993)
Now that Franken has decided to resign, Democrats can claim the high, moral ground.




...when has that ever paid dividends against Republicans?

People shouldn't think of a political party when making their ethical decisions.

Jerrymander 7th December 2017 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LTC8K6 (Post 12105859)
You probably won't learn until the accusation train runs over someone you do care about.

And you probably won't learn until someone close to you is victimized by someone in power and they are allowed to stay in power because someone did not have a HD video of the assault.

Bob001 7th December 2017 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xjx388 (Post 12105971)
My siblings-in-law are all teachers. I've known them since they were 6 or 7. If one of them was accused of sexually assaulting one of their students, especially 20 or 30 years from now, I wouldn't believe it. I would defend them. Unless of course, there was evidence other than a story.

What makes you think their behavior toward you would be a guide to their behavior with anyone else behind closed doors? There are people in prison now -- including the just-sentenced Olympic coach -- who had great reputations right up until the cuffs were slapped on. The BTK killer was an Air Force veteran, a responsible employee and a devoted family man. Skepticism and denial are not the same things.

bluesjnr 7th December 2017 04:24 PM

He put his arm around her waist and squeezed twice and as a result,

"It shrunk me. It’s like I was no longer a person, only ornamental. It said, “You don’t matter—and I do.”

What a pile of pish.

BobTheCoward 7th December 2017 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bluesjnr (Post 12106005)
He put his arm around her waist and squeezed twice and as a result,

"It shrunk me. It’s like I was no longer a person, only ornamental. It said, “You don’t matter—and I do.”

What a pile of pish.

Do you think they are lying or something else?

Cleon 7th December 2017 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken (Post 12105993)
Now that Franken has decided to resign, Democrats can claim the high, moral ground.




...when has that ever paid dividends against Republicans?

If your concern about doing the right thing revolves around dividends (political or otherwise), you should probably stop pretending your concerns are moral.

Bob001 7th December 2017 04:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward (Post 12105996)
I wasn't asking about Moore. I'm asking about whether decades since the event affects false accusations rates.

Considering that in most cases, decades-old accusations are beyond the statutes of limitations and would never be adjudicated in court, there would be no way to determine for sure whether any are false. On the other hand, with no criminal or civil action in play, accusers would have no obvious reason to make up stories. They get brutal publicity and have nothing to gain.

One of the factors that would be determinative for me is whether the victim told anybody -- family, friends, minister, shrink etc. -- about the event at the time. That would be strong support for her story, even if she never called the cops. And in many of these cases, there is evidence that the accusers did tell other people.

thaiboxerken 7th December 2017 04:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward (Post 12105997)
People shouldn't think of a political party when making their ethical decisions.

I'm asking the adults here. This is about political strategy. When has having the moral high ground ever paid dividends for the Democrats?

Cleon 7th December 2017 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken (Post 12106011)
I'm asking the adults here. This is about political strategy.

Sorry, kid, no it *********** isn't.

luchog 7th December 2017 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xjx388 (Post 12105971)
My siblings-in-law are all teachers. I've known them since they were 6 or 7. If one of them was accused of sexually assaulting one of their students, especially 20 or 30 years from now, I wouldn't believe it. I would defend them. Unless of course, there was evidence other than a story.


Congratulations, you're one of the biggest reasons that child sexual abusers are able to do what they do with impunity for years, if not decades. The majority of abusers are family and close family friends, and they're all "good people", until suddenly everyone finds out that they're not.

What evidence to you expect to show up when a child is sexually abused? How do you expect to find it and evaluate it?

thaiboxerken 7th December 2017 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cleon (Post 12106008)
If your concern about doing the right thing revolves around dividends (political or otherwise), you should probably stop pretending your concerns are moral.

They aren't, they are political. Democrats will never win if they keep up this "high moral ground" nonsense. Al was a little touchy, yet some Democrats want to treat him on the same level as Roy Moore. So, Al is out and Moore is in. What is the point of doing all of this?

BobTheCoward 7th December 2017 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob001 (Post 12106010)
One of the factors that would be determinative for me

I get that. I realize I'm asking a very narrow question, but my intent was to look microscopic rather than macroscopic.

thaiboxerken 7th December 2017 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cleon (Post 12106013)
Sorry, kid, no it *********** isn't.

Yes, it is. It's all politics.

Republicans win with Al's resignation. Democrats gain nothing. No justice is done for anyone. What was the point of it all?

BobTheCoward 7th December 2017 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken (Post 12106017)
They aren't, they are political. Democrats will never win if they keep up this "high moral ground" nonsense. Al was a little touchy, yet some Democrats want to treat him on the same level as Roy Moore. So, Al is out and Moore is in. What is the point of doing all of this?

There is no point in winning if you live with low moral character.

Cleon 7th December 2017 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken (Post 12106017)
They aren't, they are political.

Well, that's repulsive, but par for the course these days. You can go have a seat with logger.

thaiboxerken 7th December 2017 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward (Post 12106023)
There is no point in winning if you live with low moral character.

That's a nice, romantic view of the world. Meanwhile, in the real world, Republicans are winning and are reaping all the benefits of power.

bluesjnr 7th December 2017 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward (Post 12106007)
Do you think they are lying or something else?

Something else.

Skeptic Ginger 7th December 2017 04:40 PM

Wimpy Democrats let the GOP bully them into asking Franken to resign.

Pitiful.

BobTheCoward 7th December 2017 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken (Post 12106031)
That's a nice, romantic view of the world. Meanwhile, in the real world, Republicans are winning and are reaping all the benefits of power.

The people who want power get their power. The people who care about Character maintain theirs. Sounds win win.

Almost By definition, people who have character do not maintain it for external rewards.

thaiboxerken 7th December 2017 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cleon (Post 12106028)
Well, that's repulsive, but par for the course these days. You can go have a seat with logger.

Oh, that's such a sick burn.

What Franken did in resigning wasn't moral. It was political. If he wanted to be moral, he would stay continue the good fight against the fascist Republicans. By resigning, Democrats lose a very good Senator and gain absolutely nothing. They don't even gain a "moral high ground" because there is almost no credibility to the accusations against him.

thaiboxerken 7th December 2017 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger (Post 12106037)
Wimpy Democrats let the GOP bully them into asking Franken to resign.

Pitiful.

I agree 100%. This only weakens the party and invites more hit-jobs like this against Democrats who speak too loudly against Trump and his goons.

BobTheCoward 7th December 2017 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken (Post 12106040)
Oh, that's such a sick burn.

What Franken did in resigning wasn't moral. It was political. If he wanted to be moral, he would stay continue the good fight against the fascist Republicans. By resigning, Democrats lose a very good Senator and gain absolutely nothing. They don't even gain a "moral high ground" because there is almost no credibility to the accusations against him.

You don't get to define morality for other people. You can apply yours to them,but it won't affect them.

thaiboxerken 7th December 2017 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward (Post 12106045)
You don't get to define morality for other people. You can apply yours to them,but it won't affect them.

Then you can stop trying to assign yours to me.

BobTheCoward 7th December 2017 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken (Post 12106048)
Then you can stop trying to assign yours to me.

I'm not. I'm letting you know why your arguments have no resonance with people of this viewpoint. I'm perfectly content for you to carry on with your viewpoint.

theprestige 7th December 2017 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken (Post 12106011)
I'm asking the adults here. This is about political strategy. When has having the moral high ground ever paid dividends for the Democrats?

When have the Democrats ever had the moral high ground?

thaiboxerken 7th December 2017 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12106054)
When have the Democrats ever had the moral high ground?

They always have. It just doesn't seem to matter.

theprestige 7th December 2017 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger (Post 12106037)
Wimpy Democrats let the GOP bully them into asking Franken to resign.

Uh, all of the calls for his resignation came from the Democrats. There really hasn't been any GOP bullying on this issue at all, as far as I can tell. This has been mostly about progressives eating their own.

Cleon 7th December 2017 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger (Post 12106037)
Wimpy Democrats let the GOP bully them into asking Franken to resign.

Pitiful.

Pitiful indeed. They should've stood by their sexual predator out of political considerations. It's the American way!

:mad:

Cleon 7th December 2017 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12106054)
When have the Democrats ever had the moral high ground?

Is that what you asked yourself when you voted for President Pussygrabber?

theprestige 7th December 2017 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken (Post 12106020)
Yes, it is. It's all politics.

Republicans win with Al's resignation. Democrats gain nothing. No justice is done for anyone. What was the point of it all?

Honoring the experiences of the women who were molested by Al Franken?

theprestige 7th December 2017 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cleon (Post 12106063)
Is that what you asked yourself when you voted for President Pussygrabber?

That did factor into it, yes.

C_Felix 7th December 2017 05:00 PM

Trent Franks (House - AZ - R) is going to resign.

No details as of yet.


And...if told you "A male Oklahoma state senator - who votes were anit-LGBT - was found in a hotel room with an under age boy - and the two exchanged sexually explicit text messages; what party would you guess he was from?

Skeptic Ginger 7th December 2017 05:00 PM

I started a MoveOn petition:

Subject: Senator Franken DO NOT RESIGN

Hi,

Senator Franken is one of our most effective Senators, he has championed women's rights for decades. The accusations against him simply do not rise to the same level as the accusations against the other sexual abusers. We are letting the GOP bully us. We should and can stand up to this false equivalence.

That's why I created a petition to The United States Senate, which says:

"Don't let the GOP bully us into dumping Franken. The accusations against him simply do not meet the sexual predator/abuser definition."

Will you sign this petition? Click here:

http://petitions.moveon.org/sign/sen...&r_by=12563778

Thanks!

Cleon 7th December 2017 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12106065)
Honoring the experiences of the women who were molested by Al Franken?


Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12106066)
That did factor into it, yes.

OK, so you can sit over there with thaiboxerken, logger, and Ginger. You're all saying pretty much the same thing: "my sexual predator is acceptable, because otherwise the other party might win!"

**** that.


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