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-   -   Senator Al Franken Kissed and Groped Me Without My Consent, And Thereís Nothing Funny (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=324808)

LTC8K6 8th December 2017 05:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger (Post 12106037)
Wimpy Democrats let the GOP bully them into asking Franken to resign.

Pitiful.

I think they made a strategic decision to use Franken.

Wolrab 8th December 2017 06:17 AM

The Democratics (see, I was respectful....it also got highlighted by spell check) threw Franken under the steamroller. If Conyers and him had any chance to be replaced by a Republican it would probably be a different story.

LTC8K6 8th December 2017 06:17 AM

I also think Franken may "unresign" if Moore wins.

bruto 8th December 2017 07:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wolrab (Post 12106575)
The Democratics (see, I was respectful....it also got highlighted by spell check) threw Franken under the steamroller. If Conyers and him had any chance to be replaced by a Republican it would probably be a different story.

While it might be hard to know all that goes on, I would suggest that it's at least possible that Franken, being a Democrat of the Democratic party (come on, folks, is it that hard?) was party to the decision, even if it was an unhappy one for him.

ahhell 8th December 2017 07:49 AM

The Dems getting their gropers to quit is just could politics. They will be replaced by other dems and it leaves the field clear in 2018 for the Dems to paint the GOP as the party of a pedophile(Sure I know he's not technically a pedo) without the "you too!" chorus. Loosing Conyers and Franken is nothing when they are almost certain to be replaced by other solid dems, likely women.

The GOP has started doing the same btw.
http://www.cnn.com/2017/12/07/politi...sis/index.html
Likely for the same reason. They just can't get rid of Moore and since he's shameless they can't shame him into bowing out.

pgwenthold 8th December 2017 07:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by C_Felix (Post 12106070)
Trent Franks (House - AZ - R) is going to resign.

No details as of yet.


And...if told you "A male Oklahoma state senator - who votes were anit-LGBT - was found in a hotel room with an under age boy - and the two exchanged sexually explicit text messages; what party would you guess he was from?

You could add, "Was the chair of the state Trump election committee" but that would give it away.

Although it's true, he was.

johnny karate 8th December 2017 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wolrab (Post 12106575)
The Democratics (see, I was respectful....it also got highlighted by spell check) threw Franken under the steamroller. If Conyers and him had any chance to be replaced by a Republican it would probably be a different story.

Or maybe theyíre just doing the right thing because - unlike Republicans - they actually have principles.

johnny karate 8th December 2017 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Regnad Kcin (Post 12106220)
Iíll suggest another possibility:

4) Different people can (and often do) have radically different interpretations and subsequent judgements of behavior.

Presented with what on first glance appears to be a clear-cut scenario, one may objectively find there can be more than one valid choice among possibilities.

As theprestige pointed out, I think thatís just a milder rephrasing of my third option. Either your behavior is defensible or it isnít.

What sunk Franken wasnít the various accusations that may or may not be true. It was the photo of him leering at the camera while pretending to grope a sleeping woman. He may not have intended any malice, but that doesnít matter. He crossed the line. And that makes the worst version scenario of every accusation against him plausible.

WilliamSeger 8th December 2017 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnny karate (Post 12106799)
As theprestige pointed out, I think that’s just a milder rephrasing of my third option. Either your behavior is defensible or it isn’t.

What sunk Franken wasn’t the various accusations that may or may not be true. It was the photo of him leering at the camera while pretending to grope a sleeping woman. He may not have intended any malice, but that doesn’t matter. He crossed the line. And that makes the worst version scenario of every accusation against him plausible.

The photo was an inexcusable lapse of judgement. Yes, it was intended as a juvenile joke -- given Franken's sense of humor, the fact that it was obviously juvenile is what was supposed to be funny about it -- but it was also a sexist joke, which makes it as unfunny as a racist joke, especially to groping victims. However, I do believe he could have recovered from that with sufficient contrition. What did him in was all the other reports, and I do believe he did the right thing. Some say the 33 Democrats turned on him for purely political reasons -- the same thing that would be said if they stuck by him -- but if that's so, then it must be because they believe most voters will agree that it was the right thing to do.

theprestige 8th December 2017 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by uke2se (Post 12106416)
Franken resigning is the right thing to do from a moral perspective, and even politically, it's likely the right thing to do in the long term. Short term, it gives people like the conservatives crowing jubilantly in this thread the opportunity to shift the focus from the complete moral rot the GOP is in, but long term, the question of sexual harassment is becoming such a big issue that to do the right thing now prevents you from having to do the "right" thing later, and it shows which party is really about personal responsibility.

I'm not sure it is the right thing to do, morally, though. The reaction of the Democrats in the Senate seem to suggest this is entirely about optics, not morality.

I think that the moral question is ultimately and only a question for Franken's constituents. I might not want to elect a senator who's been accused of such things. On the other hand, I might not give a ****. It's probably one of those case-by-case things. Clearly some progressives have evaluated the situation and concluded that they would *love* to have Al Franken as a Senator, allegations and all. I think Franken has a moral duty to serve his constituents, if they call upon him to do so.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minoosh (Post 12106419)
Well they crow at their own peril, because the contrast with Moore, Trump et al. could not be more conspicuous.

It'll be interesting to see how it plays out. The contrast is nothing new--progressives have been shouting it from the rooftops for years.

The boy keeps crying, "wolf, wolf!"

And the villagers say, "that's a wolf, alright. We heard you the first time. Known about it for years."

"But it just ate a sheep!"

"Yep. Wolves do eat sheep on occasion. What's your point?"

Obviously, something should be done to mitigate the wolf situation. But it's not like the existence of wolves is a shocking new revelation that will galvanize the villagers into doing something. The boy's been crying for years. Everybody already knows all about it.

So the "contrast" may not have a transformative effect on the electorate. Then again, it might. Who knows? But keep in mind that swing voters in key states had to consider exactly the same kinds of allegations about Trump, in November. They already know what they were getting into.

Dr. Keith 8th December 2017 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WilliamSeger (Post 12106819)
The photo was an inexcusable lapse of judgement.

For a politician? Yes.

For a comedian? No.

That is one of the problems with mid-life career changes.

WilliamSeger 8th December 2017 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr. Keith (Post 12106836)
For a politician? Yes.

For a comedian? No.

That is one of the problems with mid-life career changes.

Good point.

theprestige 8th December 2017 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnny karate (Post 12106782)
Or maybe they’re just doing the right thing because - unlike Republicans - they actually have principles.

Principles like Democrat Harvey Weinstein had principles? Principles like Kevin Spacey and Matt Lauer had principles? Principles like John Edwards had principles? Like Bill Clinton had principles? Like John "settle harassment claims under NDA with taxpayer money" Conyers had principles?

There has never been a moral high ground for Democrats, here.

Dr. Keith 8th December 2017 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12106844)
Principles like Democrat Harvey Weinstein had principles? Principles like Kevin Spacey and Matt Lauer had principles? Principles like John Edwards had principles? Like Bill Clinton had principles? Like John "settle harassment claims under NDA with taxpayer money" had principles?

There has never been a moral high ground for Democrats, here.

Is now a bad time to try to step up?

theprestige 8th December 2017 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr. Keith (Post 12106857)
Is now a bad time to try to step up?

Maybe.

Skeptic Ginger 8th December 2017 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnny karate (Post 12106161)
If a woman accuses a man of sexual assault/harrassment, there are three possibilities:

1) The accusations are completely true.

2) The accusations are completely false.

3) The accusations arenít completely true, but the accused engaged in just enough inappropriate behavior to make a full-throated denial impossible.

Franken brought this on himself.

Resigning is the right thing to do.

Let the Republicans be the party of pussy grabbers and child molesters.

Talk about a biased #3 there. :rolleyes:

How about: The accusations arenít completely true, rather the accused did something that was misinterpreted.

Skeptic Ginger 8th December 2017 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob001 (Post 12106215)
He said pretty clearly that he will resign in the next few weeks, after saying he couldn't represent the people of Minnesota effectively. The majority of Democratic senators have called for his resignation. Nothing tentative about his statement.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/power...=.618e978249db

But there is still time for a changed mind.

Skeptic Ginger 8th December 2017 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Regnad Kcin (Post 12106220)
Iíll suggest another possibility:

4) Different people can (and often do) have radically different interpretations and subsequent judgements of behavior.

Presented with what on first glance appears to be a clear-cut scenario, one may objectively find there can be more than one valid choice among possibilities.

Better said than I did.:thumbsup:

Skeptic Ginger 8th December 2017 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr. Keith (Post 12106836)
Quote:

Originally Posted by WilliamSeger
The photo was an inexcusable lapse of judgement.

For a politician? Yes.

For a comedian? No.

That is one of the problems with mid-life career changes.

:thumbsup:

Skeptic Ginger 8th December 2017 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LTC8K6 (Post 12106521)
I think they made a strategic decision to use Franken.

Some strategy, let the bullies succeed. :mad:

Skeptic Ginger 8th December 2017 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bruto (Post 12106643)
While it might be hard to know all that goes on, I would suggest that it's at least possible that Franken, being a Democrat of the Democratic party (come on, folks, is it that hard?) was party to the decision, even if it was an unhappy one for him.

Much as people less familiar with him don't get it, he is an extremely nice guy. I'm not surprised he would fall on his sword.

Dr. Keith 8th December 2017 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12106861)
Maybe.

If it is, how long should they wait before trying to be a less morally reprehensible party?

What if it's a big hoax and we create a better world party for nothing?

WilliamSeger 8th December 2017 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12106844)
Principles like Democrat Harvey Weinstein had principles? Principles like Kevin Spacey and Matt Lauer had principles? Principles like John Edwards had principles? Like Bill Clinton had principles? Like John "settle harassment claims under NDA with taxpayer money" Conyers had principles?

There has never been a moral high ground for Democrats, here.

Nice CYA, but you're still wrong. Like it or not, Democrats are claiming the high ground, and if your best counteroffensive is cynicism and whataboutism, then they'll hold it.

theprestige 8th December 2017 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger (Post 12106880)
Some strategy, let the bullies succeed. : mad :

Who's been bullying? His resignation has been instigated by Democrats.

Spindrift 8th December 2017 11:40 AM

Al Franken should change parties. Then he wouldn't have to resign.

theprestige 8th December 2017 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr. Keith (Post 12106888)
If it is, how long should they wait before trying to be a less morally reprehensible party?

Begs the question.

Quote:

What if it's a big hoax and we create a better world party for nothing?
Begs the question.

theprestige 8th December 2017 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WilliamSeger (Post 12106898)
Nice CYA, but you're still wrong. Like it or not, Democrats are claiming the high ground, and if your best counteroffensive is cynicism and whataboutism, then they'll hold it.

Let's not get ahead of ourselves. TBK's claim is that the Democrats are already on the high ground, and have been there all along. The reality is that they've never been on the high ground, and this current scramble to bag as many witches as possible is more about red meat for their base than about any principled stand. Groups with actual principles don't magically turn out to have so many witches in their midst.

WilliamSeger 8th December 2017 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12106919)
Groups with actual principles don't magically turn out to have so many witches in their midst.

I'm not sure what you think prevents that, but groups with actual principles don't magically decide that they can't expel their own witches when they're uncovered.

uke2se 8th December 2017 12:14 PM

Looks like the Democrats purging the gropers is sitting badly with our resident cons. Good. Will make it easier to bring the US back to a rational place in 2018.

WilliamSeger 8th December 2017 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spindrift (Post 12106909)
Al Franken should change parties. Then he wouldn't have to resign.

:D Wouldn't it be funny as hell if Franken steps down and then announces that he'll run as a Republican in 2018.

The Big Dog 8th December 2017 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger (Post 12106880)
Some strategy, let the bullies succeed. :mad:

Quote:

Originally Posted by uke2se (Post 12106948)
Looks like the Democrats purging the gropers is sitting badly with our resident cons. Good. Will make it easier to bring the US back to a rational place in 2018.

Huh, looks like.

theprestige 8th December 2017 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WilliamSeger (Post 12106945)
I'm not sure what you think prevents that, but groups with actual principles don't magically decide that they can't expel their own witches when they're uncovered.

Too many negatives, I've lost track of your point. Are you talking about Bill Clinton?

WilliamSeger 8th December 2017 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12107000)
Too many negatives, I've lost track of your point. Are you talking about Bill Clinton?

No, I'm pretty sure you can parse what I said if you try a little harder, but if you'd rather talk Bill Clinton, okay, try this version: A political party that says Bill Clinton was immoral so Trump and Moore have to be accepted has no principles.

Shalamar 8th December 2017 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12106844)
Principles like Democrat Harvey Weinstein had principles? Principles like Kevin Spacey and Matt Lauer had principles? Principles like John Edwards had principles? Like Bill Clinton had principles? Like John "settle harassment claims under NDA with taxpayer money" Conyers had principles?

There has never been a moral high ground for Democrats, here.

lol

Regnad Kcin 8th December 2017 11:01 PM

Kevin Spacey and Matt Lauer are Democratic politicians?

quadraginta 9th December 2017 12:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by luchog (Post 12105735)
<snip>

The GOP has no ethics or morals, is utterly ruthless, and is increasingly good at turning progressive ethics into a weapon that the GOP can wield against them. They've been doing it with the alt.right and "free speech", and now they're doing it with the issue of sexual harassment.

Again, it's the right thing to do morally and ethically; but pragmatically, too much emphasis on ethical purity amounts to slow suicide, barring a massive cultural sea change in this country.


Republicans have a technical term they use among themselves to describe people who allow morals and ethics to take precedence over power and personal gain.

They call them "chumps".

kellyb 9th December 2017 01:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnny karate (Post 12106782)
Or maybe theyíre just doing the right thing because - unlike Republicans - they actually have principles.

It seems pretty clear to me that some are advocating doing the right thing on principal, and others are more into the political calculus.

kellyb 9th December 2017 01:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by uke2se (Post 12106948)
Looks like the Democrats purging the gropers is sitting badly with our resident cons. Good. Will make it easier to bring the US back to a rational place in 2018.

Yep.

kellyb 9th December 2017 01:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WilliamSeger (Post 12107198)
No, I'm pretty sure you can parse what I said if you try a little harder, but if you'd rather talk Bill Clinton, okay, try this version: A political party that says Bill Clinton was immoral so Trump and Moore have to be accepted has no principles.

Word.

Dr. Keith 9th December 2017 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12106911)
Begs the question.

You implied this wasn't a good time. Is there a good time?


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